My Papa John clone attempt

[josht]

Yesterday, I tried making a pizza based on Pete-zza's 2-day clone.
I think I did okay considering it was my first time making a pizza from scratch. I probably did something wrong though, since it didn't come out right. The crust was dry and somewhat biscuit-like, and it lacked any real flavor. I think I probably should have used more water. and maybe more oil. I didn't bother to weigh the finished product, but in my hand the pizza felt like it wasn't nearly as heavy as it should be.
Also, I couldn't find IDY, so I used ADY instead. I don't know if that was part of the problem.
Anyway, here's some pictures of it:

[buceriasdon]

Nice looking pie for a first time.  The devil is in the details when it comes to pizza making.
Don

[Pete-zza]

josht,

I agree that your pizza looks good for a first try. However, can you tell me what type and brand of flour you used and if you weighed the flour and water and otherwise used the amounts of the other ingredients specified in the recipe? Also, did you swap the ADY for IDY on an equal amount basis and did you rehydrate the ADY in part of the formula water at around 105 degrees F for about 10 minutes? Or did you use the ADY dry?

I see also that you used a perforated pan. I don't have such a pan so I have never tried that approach to see how well it works. The dough formulation you used was designed for use with a pizza screen.

Peter

[josht]

The flour was King Arthur bread flour. I weighed the water and flour, and the other ingredients as well. I did swap the IDY for an equal amount of ADY, but I'm not sure if the water was warm enough. It did foam though, so I assumed it was okay.

[Pete-zza]

josht,

I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to convert the Papa John's clone formulation you used from IDY to ADY, as follows:

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%): Water (56.5%): ADY (0.37%): Salt (1.75%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (7.3%): Sugar (4.2%): Total (170.12%):

355.21 g  |  12.53 oz | 0.78 lbs 200.69 g  |  7.08 oz | 0.44 lbs 1.31 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp 6.22 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp 25.93 g | 0.91 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.71 tsp | 1.9 tbsp 14.92 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.74 tsp | 1.25 tbsp 604.29 g | 21.32 oz | 1.33 lbs | TF = 0.1384663

Note: Dough is for a single 14" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.13642; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%; target final dough ball weight = 21oz/595.36g)

ADY is quite sensitive to temperature, and its performance can be affected if the water temperature is too far below or above about 105 degrees F. Also, in your case, you used less ADY than you should have. It is hard to say whether these differences were responsible for your results, especially if the ADY was properly rehydrated without your really realizing it. The perforated pan might also have been a factor. However, I can assure you that the targeted dough ball weight of 21 ounces is credible. There may be differences in the final pizza weights (as between a real PJ pizza and a comparable PJ clone pizza) because a home electric oven does not bake the same way as a gas conveyor oven. BTW, I only weigh the flour and water. For the rest of the ingredients, I use the volume measurements. And when the dough has been made, I scale it to the targeted final dough weight, in this case, 21 ounces.

If you decide to take another stab at a PJ clone pizza using the revised dough formulation given above, I hope you will report back on your results.

Peter

[josht]

This pizza was definitely better than the first. This time the crust was bread-like and a little too soft, but much better than the last one. I think it needs to be cooked longer, but I'm afraid of burning the bottom. I think I will try to find a pizza screen to cook it on. Hopefully that will help.
One thing I forgot to mention is that I'm doing the mixing and kneading by hand. Would that have a significant effect on how it turns out?

[Jackie Tran]

One thing I forgot to mention is that I'm doing the mixing and kneading by hand. Would that have a significant effect on how it turns out?

Nice job on the pizzas.  To answer your question NO.  Having a mixer would not improve your results by very much if any at all.   It can give you a more consistent mix but you can achieve the same result by improving your hand technique.   How long are you kneading this dough for?

Chau

[Pete-zza]

One thing I forgot to mention is that I'm doing the mixing and kneading by hand. Would that have a significant effect on how it turns out?

josht,

I agree that you have made progress with your PJ clone.

Since I was trying to clone real Papa John's pizzas, I used mainly a stand mixer. But I did describe the use of hand kneading at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg66312.html#msg66312 and also at Reply 107 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg80757.html#msg80757. I also made a Reinhart American style pizza in which I used hand kneading, as discussed at Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg63672.html#msg63672. So long as you end up with a smooth and cohesive dough ball, I think you should be OK.

Peter

[josht]

Today's pizza was much better than my previous two. This time I used bread machine yeast instead of ADY. I also used some vital wheat gluten. The bottom of the pizza was a little overdone, but otherwise this pizza was very good. Not quite the same as Papa John's, but I think I'm getting there.

[Pete-zza]

josht,

I'd say that your latest effort is very good. The pizza looks quite appealing and appetizing.

Bread machine yeast is really IDY, but not so labeled, so you might want to go back to the original recipe you used should you decide to stay with the bread machine yeast. But, even then, with only a two-day dough, you won't get exactly a perfect PJ clone. Based on what I have learned, a real PJ dough is cold fermented for much longer than two days--about 5-8 days. To get a closer clone, you would have to go with the original PJ clone dough recipe and related instructions I posted at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197 except that you would use hand kneading instead of machine kneading. I came up with the two-day version because most people don't have the desire or patience to wait 5-8 days to make a pizza. For what it is, I think the two-day version is very good. I would say that it is perhaps the most popular version of all the versions I came up with. You should also keep in mind that you can tweak the amount of oil and sugar to your own palate. You can use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to change the ingredient quantities. However, I suggest that you stick with a total dough weight of around 21 ounces for the 14" size.

Until and if you decide to go with a pizza screen rather than a perforated pan, you might try baking your next pizza higher up in the oven, maybe a single rack position higher. That might help reduce the bottom charring, which is caused by the high sugar content in the dough, but raising the pizza in the oven might also cause the top of the pizza to bake faster. So, you may have to do some balancing of the bake in the oven.

Peter

[james456]

This pizza was definitely better than the first. This time the crust was bread-like and a little too soft, but much better than the last one. I think it needs to be cooked longer, but I'm afraid of burning the bottom. I think I will try to find a pizza screen to cook it on. Hopefully that will help.
One thing I forgot to mention is that I'm doing the mixing and kneading by hand. Would that have a significant effect on how it turns out?

When I first started making pizza's from scratch, it took me around 10 pizzas/experiments before I started getting (good) consistent results. The main sticking point for me was my kneading technique since I was making the dough by hand without any bread making or dough experience. Your dough, from the pics you've provided, remind me of my first few attempts at making pizza.

I believe you need to improve your kneading technique. Your dough looks rough and coarse; your dough should be smooth and somewhat elastic (the windowpane test can be a rough measure), Pete-zza has included pics of his dough in his PJ thread.

[josht]

I finally got around to getting a pizza screen. It definitely made a difference. This pizza was overall better than the others- the bottom was overdone, though. I think I'll put it up higher in the oven next time.
There were also some really big bubbles. I think that might be because I kneaded this one longer than the others.

[Pete-zza]

josht,

Each oven is different so some experimentation is often necessary to get things just right. But apart from the darkened bottom crust, your pizza looks downright appetizing. As to the bubbling, did you use the dough cold or did you let it warm up for a while before using? And did you use a dough docker? When making my PJ clone pizzas, I try to press the rim flat. The official photos at the PJ website show a distinct rim, but the PJ pies I have purchased at my local PJ store have had rims that were quite small. I am sure that member c0mpl3x, who works for Papa John's, can tell us about edge "locking" the rims (without giving away any PJ trade secrets), even if not all workers use that technique.

Just to keep track of what you did, can you tell me which specific PJ clone dough recipe you actually used?

Peter

[josht]

I forgot to let the dough warm up this time, and I didn't use a dough docker.

This is the recipe I've been using:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217

[Pete-zza]

I forgot to let the dough warm up this time, and I didn't use a dough docker.

josht,

The most common cause of bubbling of the crust is using cold dough. A dough docker isn't always necessary but it can help reduce the incidence of bubbling. I have seen workers at Papa John's use cold dough right out of the cooler and they work the dough docker unmercifully.

Peter