Author Topic: Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)  (Read 7140 times)

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foolishpoolish

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2010, 10:42:48 AM »
Toby,
Hope all is well.  As always, great to see you back, I hope you hang around for a while. ;)  Even though I'm Sicilian, I am a huge fan of pizza Romana ;D.  You're crumb is absolutely perfect, & identical to the crumb that I achieved from my last post in the Pizzarium thread.  What I have learned is that in order to achieve the optimal crumb structure you need to ensure that the dough is mixed to at least moderate gluten development which can be an extremely difficult task because of the high hydration.  You basically need to turn this batter into a dough.  I posted a video of my dough at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKU5qWe2CsU using the double hydration method.  When making smaller batches I use this method http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough which also works extremely well.  Do you use oil in your formula?  I omitted the oil in the last batch & found that without it, the finished product has a little too much crunch & loses a its softness.



Matt


Thanks Matt. I've tried various approaches to developing the bianca dough and they all pretty much amount to the same thing.  I develop most of the strength over a number of bowl folds (I think Chad Robertson does a similar thing with his bread, although I don't have his Tartine book so I'm not certain).
re: Oil
I've experimented with oil @ 3 - 4% and liked the tenderness of the dough. The oiless version makes great sandwiches (sliced in half) but I've found it can get a bit tough if left uncovered for a day or so (reheating helps).  The pictured examples above were sans oil. However, I recently baked a pan pizza using a similar dough with oil (see picture below)

Quote from: norma247
A few more articles from searching about the kind of pizza I would like to recreate, if anyone is interested.

Thanks for those great links Norma! The San Francisco Magazine article was esp. great. I love the demystification of sourdough at the end. It's so frustrating to see some of those myths perpetuated (especially on the internet).

You mentioned something in an earlier post about wondering what cavolo nero is...if you haven't already looked it up - I believe it is tuscan kale (or "black" kale).
 
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 11:07:14 AM by foolishpoolish »


Offline Matthew

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2010, 11:05:40 AM »
Thanks Matt. I've tried various approaches to developing the bianca dough and they all pretty much amount to the same thing.  I develop most of the strength over a number of bowl folds (I think Chad Robertson does a similar thing with his bread, although I don't have his Tartine book so I'm not certain).
re: Oil
I've experimented with oil @ 3 - 4% and liked the tenderness of the dough. The oiless version makes great sandwiches (sliced in half) but I've found it can get a bit tough if left uncovered for a day or so (reheating helps).  The pictured examples above were sans oil. However, I recently baked a pan pizza using a similar dough with oil (see picture below)


Very nice indeed.  Was it baked the entire time in the pan or was it finished on a stone?  What TF do you typically work with?

Matt

foolishpoolish

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2010, 11:10:45 AM »
Very nice indeed.  Was it baked the entire time in the pan or was it finished on a stone?  What TF do you typically work with?

Matt
Sort of a hybrid thing I suppose. It was baked in a pan the entire time but the pan was on a stone! :D
That particular pie was baked "twice" ~10 minutes with just some tomato followed by a further ~5 with the mozzarella (low moisture) and more tomato, salt and oil.
I've also baked the same pie with all the ingredients at once. It turned out fine with a surprisingly open crumb. However, as you can imagine, the cheese browned a good deal more...which may or may not be a good thing, depending on taste.

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2010, 12:20:35 PM »
I would love to learn how to make the pizzas at Forno Campo di Fiori. Any suggestions, Toby?  :angel:

Offline norma427

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2010, 01:04:10 PM »
Toby,

I agree with Matt, that your pizza bianca looks great!  :) I did look up cavolo nero, but donít know where I can find it in my area.  I believe it is a seasonal thing.  I will do some more searching.

Thanks for posting a picture of your pizza bianca and your help on this thread.  :)

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2010, 02:20:36 PM »
Norma,

I am out of town for the Xmas holiday and haven't had a chance to review all of the links that you and others have posted but are they related to the original purpose of the thread?

Peter
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 10:34:37 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2010, 04:12:55 PM »
Norma,

I am out of town for the Xmas holiday and haven't had a chance to review all of the lonks that you and others have posted but are they related to the original purpose of the thread?

Peter

Peter,

I will let you decide, if all these links are related to my quest to make a pizza like I had at Sullivan St. Bakery, when you have time to go though all the links.  I was just trying to really find out how Jim Lahey makes his pizzas at Sullivan St. Bakery.

The original purpose of this thread was for me to be able to make a pizza like Jim Lahey does at Sullivan St. Bakery.  I think if this takes me away from a no-knead formula, that is what I will have to explore.  Right now I think the formula will have to be changed to be able to make a pizza like Jim Lahey.

If you think I should start another thread, that is okay with me. 

Merry Christmas!

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

foolishpoolish

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2010, 09:12:31 PM »
I would love to learn how to make the pizzas at Forno Campo di Fiori. Any suggestions, Toby?  :angel:


Aside from the other youtube video I posted (which I pretty much used as the basis for mine), I do believe Forno Campo de Fiori has its own website with a video although it doesn't really cover pizza bianca in any detail (still pretty breathtaking to watch all the different breads etc. they make there!)
I'm assured that Jeffery Steingarten's book "The Man Who Ate Everything" has a chapter covering his own obsessive Pizza Bianca quest although I haven't read it myself.
Bill/SFNM has posted a version of the Steingarten treatment here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1464.msg13304.html#msg13304

Otherwise for me it's really been just a case of mixing up an 80% hydration dough (you can go higher if you like - I've gone as high as ~95% in the past) - developing it over a period of hours with some bowl folds, allowing to ferment and then doing as they do in Rome! ...albeit on a MUCH smaller scale :D

Hope that helps - and Merry Christmas + Happy New Year to you, and all good folks on Pizzamaking :)

Cheers
T
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 09:15:31 PM by foolishpoolish »

Offline norma427

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2010, 08:55:15 AM »
This is a podcast with Jim Lahey and him talking about his starter, how he started the no-knead bread and what his ideas are about how bread has evolved and made.

I found this podcast interesting.

http://www.fieldworkny.com/stirthepots/web/lahey.mp3

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2010, 01:10:25 PM »
Any idea what the thickness factor might be on a pizze from forno campo di fiori?


Offline ninapizza23

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2010, 01:07:19 AM »
Hotsawce,
I don't know where you live but there are two places in NY where they make this type of pizza 4ft long.  The owner learned at Campo de' Fiori. I might go and check it out next week.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 01:13:19 AM by ninapizza23 »

foolishpoolish

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2010, 03:51:56 AM »
Hotsawce,
I don't know where you live but there are two places in NY where they make this type of pizza 4ft long.  The owner learned at Campo de' Fiori. I might go and check it out next week.


There are two (well technically three) that I know of:

Farinella which has two branches:
one at 90 Worth Street (Tribeca)
another at 1132 Lexington Ave (UES)

and the recently opened Campo de'Fiori
187 5th Avenue (Park Slope)

Of the two, judging from reviews and pictures and write-ups, I'd say Farinella is the closer of the two to the real deal.
FWIW the pizza at the "real" Campo Fiori is typically made 6ft long. The Park Slope namesake does a considerably smaller version of this pizza, taking a square form. There was even a rumor they were flying in par-baked crusts from Rome but I suspect that is just rumor.

« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 07:44:08 AM by foolishpoolish »

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2010, 01:13:16 PM »
The pizza at Farinella is most what I am looking to achieve. I'm unsure of the thickness factor, though.

Also, what I find interesting, is the margherita and other pies using cheese do not have browned cheese. I suspect they are cooking at temperatures my home oven is capable of, but I am unsure as to how or when they are putting on the cheese so it is staying white and creamy, avoiding browning.

foolishpoolish

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2010, 01:29:23 PM »
The pizza at Farinella is most what I am looking to achieve. I'm unsure of the thickness factor, though.

Also, what I find interesting, is the margherita and other pies using cheese do not have browned cheese. I suspect they are cooking at temperatures my home oven is capable of, but I am unsure as to how or when they are putting on the cheese so it is staying white and creamy, avoiding browning.


I'm not sure about the thickness factor. However regarding the cheese, and based on what I saw on the Forno Campo de'Fiori website video, at least some of them are parbaked before the cheese is added.

FWIW, there's a video featuring Farinella here:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_-yrYJbk08" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_-yrYJbk08</a>

« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 01:32:51 PM by foolishpoolish »

Offline dmichael72

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2011, 01:01:32 PM »
Kind of a tangent question, I have a few no knead bread recipes I want to try, They call for a 12-18 hour rise.  Can I go longer, closer to 24 hours.  It seems to bake on a weekday 12 hours usually falls during work or sleep. I guess if I put the dough together before I go to sleep when I get home at 3:30 pm it would be about 18-20 hours.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 01:04:47 PM by dmichael72 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2011, 04:15:06 PM »
Kind of a tangent question, I have a few no knead bread recipes I want to try, They call for a 12-18 hour rise.  Can I go longer, closer to 24 hours.  It seems to bake on a weekday 12 hours usually falls during work or sleep. I guess if I put the dough together before I go to sleep when I get home at 3:30 pm it would be about 18-20 hours.


dmichael72,

I know exactly what you are talking about. When I first read Jim Lahey's recipe for a no knead pizza dough, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7745.msg66537.html#msg66537, I noted the fermentation period of 12-24 hours, at room temperature. Having worked quite a bit with room temperature fermented doughs, that range of 12-24 hours struck me as being very wide. When I eventually came up with a workable dough in that range, the duration of room temperature fermentation was around 14 hours. I doubt that my dough would have made it out to 24 hours. 24 hours would have been a better period to use than 14 hours because trying to time a 14 hour dough would have meant having to start the dough at some ungodly time, like in the middle of the night when you normally would be asleep to be able to use the dough for a dinnertime meal the next day. Or the dough would have to be made in the afternoon, when many people are at work, to be used for lunch the next day, which for most might mean a weekend meal. I generally referred to this conundrum in the fifth paragraph of Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7745.msg69521.html#msg69521.

In your case, my advice would be to reduce the amount of yeast or ferment at a lower room temperature, or possibly a combination of both. I discussed some of the challenges and issues involved in a 20-24 hour room temperature dough at the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332. I wasn't trying to make a no knead dough in that thread but the principles are pretty much the same. However, a very high hydration accelerates the processes quite a bit. So, you may need to do some experimenting to find the arrangement that is most convenient for you.

Peter