Author Topic: Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)  (Read 7300 times)

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Online norma427

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For anyone that is interested I did a search on Slice last evening to see what I could find about Jim Lahey’s no knead pizza dough or a pizza like I am trying to make.

Some of the things I found were the basic pizza dough is a little stiffer and is only mixed for 30 seconds, doubled in volume in about 2 hours, as referenced by Peter.
References to No-Knead pizza dough:
http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2010/06/jim-laheys-no-knead-pizza-dough-recipe.html
and
http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2010/04/pizza-patate-potato-recipe.html?ref=related

It seems like Owner Stephen Gonzales of  Zavino Wine Bar Pizzeria, in Philadelphia studied his craft with Jim Lahey of Sullivan Street Bakery and was influenced by him in how to make his pizzas at: http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/06/zavino-wine-bar-and-pizzeria-pizza-philadelphia-pa-review.html

Also this video with tags for a Jim Lahey no-knead style pizza at: http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2008/12/in-videos-no-knead-pizza-dough-recipe.html

Slideshow on how to make a No-Knead pizza at: http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/06/how-to-make-jim-laheys-no-knead-pizza-dough-recipe-slideshow.html#

and where debbiek points to the blog about Jim Lahey’s pizza recipe, when I read down on the comments it directs you to this blog. http://wordstoeatby.blogspot.com/2010/06/jim-laheys-mushroom-pizza.html

Slice Makanmata comments on how good the pizza was at Sullivan St. Bakery and  It has been a deeply held wish that Lahey would open a dedicated pizza store to serve his Roman pizza fresh and warm from the oven at comments. http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2007/04/rumormongering_jim_lahey_to_open_pizzeria.html

I don’t know if these references from Slice will be able to help someone that wants to make this style of pizza, but I have learned more about Jim Lahey and his No-Knead method.

Norma
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 10:35:29 PM by Pete-zza »
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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2010, 09:01:04 AM »
Norma,

re: no-knead

I don't remember where I read it - but I vaguely recall an interview/article on Jim Lahey which suggested that that his Pizza Bianca was the one dough at Sullivan Street which required mechanical mixing. I know Grandaisy Bakery* uses mechanical mixers for their Pizza Bianca (which is very similar, if not identical, to Lahey's product).

Also, in Daniel Leader's "Local Breads", the author describes the process of making Pizza Bianca (in Rome) as requiring a long intensive mix of a high hydration dough.

I have no idea if the "Pizza pomodoro" sold at Sullivan street uses the same dough as their Pizza Bianca...but if it does - then it will likely have been mixed using the same process. The whole "no-knead" phenomenon came later, I think, partially thanks to the famous Mark Bittman article in the NY Times.

*situated at the original/former Sullivan Street bakery location. Grandaisy owner Monica Von Thun Calderón was Lahey's former partner at Sullivan Street Bakery when it was actually located on Sullivan Street.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 09:10:38 AM by foolishpoolish »

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2010, 09:31:49 AM »
Norma,

re: no-knead

I don't remember where I read it - but I vaguely recall an interview/article on Jim Lahey which suggested that that his Pizza Bianca was the one dough at Sullivan Street which required mechanical mixing. I know Grandaisy Bakery* uses mechanical mixers for their Pizza Bianca (which is very similar, if not identical, to Lahey's product).

Also, in Daniel Leader's "Local Breads", the author describes the process of making Pizza Bianca (in Rome) as requiring a long intensive mix of a high hydration dough.

I have no idea if the "Pizza pomodoro" sold at Sullivan street uses the same dough as their Pizza Bianca...but if it does - then it will likely have been mixed using the same process. The whole "no-knead" phenomenon came later, I think, partially thanks to the famous Mark Bittman article in the NY Times.

*situated at the original/former Sullivan Street bakery location. Grandaisy owner Monica Von Thun Calderón was Lahey's former partner at Sullivan Street Bakery when it was actually located on Sullivan Street.


Toby,

Great to see you back on the forum.  :) You always seem to know so much about everything related to pizza making. Your knowledge of what you vaguely recall is very interesting and also what you know about Grandaisy Bakery.

I can now understand the ties between Jim Lahey and Monica Von Thun Calderón and maybe that might be the clue to finding out how to make a pizza something like this.

I will do some more research to see what I can find.

Thanks for taking your time to help out in this thread.  :)

Norma
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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2010, 09:36:35 AM »
Toby,

Great to see you back on the forum.  :) You always seem to know so much about everything related to pizza making. Your knowledge of what you vaguely recall is very interesting and also what you know about Grandaisy Bakery.

I can now understand the ties between Jim Lahey and Monica Von Thun Calderón and maybe that might be the clue to finding out how to make a pizza something like this.

I will do some more research to see what I can find.

Thanks for taking your time to help out in this thread.  :)

Norma

Thanks Norma, although it appears my memory was only half correct.

Here is the article I was thinking of: http://www.eattoblog.com/behind-the-scenes-at-sullivan-st-bakery/

and regarding Pizza Bianca, the writer says this:
Quote
We walked past the ovens, and Lahey showed me a long pizza bianca that was cooling (one of the only kneaded bread products he sells and, according to him, one of the oldest known bread products in history)
which does not necessarily confirm a machine mixer. However I am pretty sure about Grandaisy using a mechanical mixer.

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2010, 09:55:14 AM »
Norma,

The whole no knead thing, with the help of Mark Bitman, help put Jim Lahey on the map and on his way to celebrity status. Several years ago, I actually met Jim Lahey. This was all before the no knead phenomenon caught fire. He was with his dog outside of the bakery. I had just purchased some items from the bakery and was about to head out to the airport to return home when Jim struck up a conversation with me about bread making and the bakery. I didn't know who he was but he was trying to talk me into signing up for one of the bakery's bread making courses. I told him that I had just picked up some items from the bakery and was heading home and, hence, wouldn't be able to attend one of the courses. He suggested that I might want to return for one of the courses. I finally asked him what his relationship was to the bakery. I thought maybe he lived in the neighborhood and was a regular of the bakery. That is when he told me that he was Jim Lahey and that he owned the bakery. It looks like his persistent manner has served him well.

Peter

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2010, 09:55:57 AM »
Thanks Norma, although it appears my memory was only half correct.

Here is the article I was thinking of: http://www.eattoblog.com/behind-the-scenes-at-sullivan-st-bakery/

and regarding Pizza Bianca, the writer says this:which does not necessarily confirm a machine mixer. However I am pretty sure about Grandaisy using a mechanical mixer.

Toby,

Thanks a lot for referencing that article you were thinking about.  ;D It was very interesting to read about someone that was left to go back into the bakery and see all the big tubs of dough and even hear Jim Lahey might used natural starters in almost all of his breads.  I wonder if his starter that he had been cultivating for 15 years was a milk kefir starter.  It sure sounds like it, because it said the starter was yogurt-like in both taste and texture.  

I also was very interested in hearing about his Pizza Bianca.  I would really like to be able to make a pizza as close to the pizza Jim Lahey does.  I always had wanted to go back to the most simple pizzas made years ago.  You are right, it does sound like Jim Lahey’s Pizza Bianca is kneaded.

Thanks again for helping.  :)

Norma
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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2010, 10:06:00 AM »
Norma,

The whole no knead thing, with the help of Mark Bitman, help put Jim Lahey on the map and on his way to celebrity status. Several years ago, I actually met Jim Lahey. This was all before the no knead phenomenon caught fire. He was with his dog outside of the bakery. I had just purchased some items from the bakery and was about to head out to the airport to return home when Jim struck up a conversation with me about bread making and the bakery. I didn't know who he was but he was trying to talk me into signing up for one of the bakery's bread making courses. I told him that I had just picked up some items from the bakery and was heading home and, hence, wouldn't be able to attend one of the courses. He suggested that I might want to return for one of the courses. I finally asked him what his relationship was to the bakery. I thought maybe he lived in the neighborhood and was a regular of the bakery. That is when he told me that he was Jim Lahey and that he owned the bakery. It looks like his persistent manner has served him well.

Peter

Peter,

I didn’t study much about Jim Lahey or what he did with his bakery or anything about how he and Mark Bitman were connected before, until I ate a slice of Jim Lahey’s pizza from Sullivan St. Bakery.

You were lucky to get to meet Jim Lahey, even if you didn’t know who he was.  I wish you could have taken the bakery bread making course.  I am sure you would have taken good notes and looked over his place well.    ;D

It does looks like his persistent manner has served him well.

I now wonder what protocol to try next.

Norma
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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2010, 10:08:21 AM »
Toby,

Thanks a lot for referencing that article you were thinking about.  ;D It was very interesting to read about someone that was left to go back into the bakery and see all the big tubs of dough and even hear Jim Lahey might used natural starters in almost all of his breads.  I wonder if his starter that he had been cultivating for 15 years was a milk kefir starter.  It sure sounds like it, because it said the starter was yogurt-like in both taste and texture.  

I also was very interested in hearing about his Pizza Bianca.  I would really like to be able to make a pizza as close to the pizza Jim Lahey does.  I always had wanted to go back to the most simple pizzas made years ago.  You are right, it does sound like Jim Lahey’s Pizza Bianca is kneaded.

Thanks again for helping.  :)

Norma


The details of the Sullivan Street Starter are no longer available on the current website, but retrieved from "menupages" google cache (as recent as October 2010):

Quote
The Pugliese Dough is a combination of a natural leavening and the saccharomyces cerevisiae strain of yeast. notice the likeness between the words saccharomyces cerevisiae and cerveza (the spanish word for "beer"); this is an alcohol-producing rain of yeast. jim lahey cultivated our natural leavening in tuscany, in a small farmhouse outside of the town of san gimignano. it was started with the bloom of the leaves of cavolo nero.

This picture from 2005 indicates that the Pizza Bianca formula contains both starter and baker's yeast:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roboppy/30224795/

FWIW attached are some pics from my own pizza bianca style bakes (baker's yeast, no starter, 80% hydration)
« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 10:12:37 AM by foolishpoolish »

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2010, 10:20:36 AM »

The details of the Sullivan Street Starter are no longer available on the current website, but retrieved from "menupages" google cache (as recent as October 2010):

This picture from 2005 indicates that the Pizza Bianca formula contains both starter and baker's yeast:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roboppy/30224795/

FWIW attached are some pics from my own pizza bianca style bakes (baker's yeast, no starter, 80% hydration)


Toby,

Thanks again for finding the details about the The Pugliese Dough is a combination of a natural leavening and the saccharomyces cerevisiae strain of yeast. notice the likeness between the words saccharomyces cerevisiae and cerveza (the spanish word for "beer"); this is an alcohol-producing rain of yeast. jim lahey cultivated our natural leavening in tuscany, in a small farmhouse outside of the town of san gimignano. it was started with the bloom of the leaves of cavolo nero.

I now wonder how to go about trying to make a starter like Jim Lahey did.  I sure don’t know what a bloom from the leaves of a cavolo nero are.   ::)

I would guess Jim Lahey does use a small amount of commercial yeast to make sure his doughs do leaven without fail, from the picture you referenced from flicker.

Norma
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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2010, 09:36:52 PM »
Toby,

You must have edited your post with the attached pictures as I was responding to your post.  I didn’t see the pictures until now.  Your pizza bianca style looks wonderful.  ;D  I wish I could make something as beautiful as your bianca style.  I bet that was as light as a feather. 

Thanks for attaching your pictures.  :)

Norma
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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2010, 10:43:00 PM »
I was searching more on the web about Sullivan St. Bakery and Jim Lahey’s pizza bianca.

I think the relevant parts of this article are:

Sullivan St became the name to look and ask for, and the bakery’s one retail outlet, in SoHo, became the place to go for the incredibly airy, oil-brushed, lightly salted pizza bianca, which is even better than that of the bakery in Rome’s Campo de’ Fiori, Lahey’s model and mentor.

The location, at 72nd Street and Broadway, was convenient to my brother’s apartment, where I stay, and perfect for buying and packing a loaf of the incomparable sesame bread—not just scattered with but rolled in a dense bed of sesame seeds—just before going to the airport. The name was unfamiliar: Grandaisy, with a pretty pale-blue daisy logo on the bags. The clerks reassured me that indeed, the bread was the same.
The explanation, I learned when I went to see Lahey at his new Sullivan St Bakery headquarters in the far-west reaches of Hell’s Kitchen, was a romantic breakup that devolved into a rocky professional partnership that ended in a complete business split. Now there were two bakeries with two different names selling breads and cookies identically named and to all appearances utterly identical, one owned by Lahey and the other by his former partner, Monica Von Thun Calderón.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/10/half-a-loaf/6974/

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/10/half-a-loaf/6974/2/

The no-knead method was born at the request of an Italian cook who wanted to serve a Roman-era bread at a Roman-themed dinner, and was Lahey’s attempt to reproduce the most ancient way of making bread.

Monica Von Thun Calderón, a longtime partner in Sullivan Street Bakery, acquired sole ownership of the original space and renamed it after her grandmother.

Grandaisy Bakery Facebook page with pictures of Roman style pizza.

http://www.facebook.com/GrandaisyBakery?sk=app_7146470109

Another article about Jim Lahey’s breads, Stecca - stick or small baguette, About My Bread, and Pane all'Olive - olive bread.

http://www.projectfoodie.com/spotlights/cookbooks/making-great-bread-with-my-bread.html

More posts on  pizza bianca on egullet:  http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?/topic/125201-no-knead-pizza-new-york-magazine/page__st__30

I will do some more searching to see what I can find out about Jim Lahey’s Pizza Bianca or maybe about his use of starters.

Norma
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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2010, 10:55:58 PM »
Norma, I think you might find these useful:

Grandaisy making Pizza Bianca


Pizza Bianca @ Forno Campo de'Fiori


I pretty much learned to make the pizza bianca you saw pictured from watching those videos.


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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2010, 11:10:39 PM »
Norma, I think you might find these useful:

Grandaisy making Pizza Bianca


Pizza Bianca @ Forno Campo de'Fiori


I pretty much learned to make the pizza bianca you saw pictured from watching those videos.



Toby,

Thanks so much for referencing those videos.  ;D That dough look so amazing at Pizza Bianca @ Forno Campo de'Fiori.  The finished pizza bianca looks so nice, light and airy, too!

Do you mind telling me what protein flour you used when you made your Pizza Bianca?

Your help is appreciated.  :)

Norma
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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2010, 11:16:43 PM »
I just found this article.  It sounds like starters are used in most of Jim Lahey's breads and Pizza Bianca

http://www.menupages.com/restaurants/sullivan-street-bakery/menu

Norma

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2010, 11:30:08 PM »
Toby,

Thanks so much for referencing those videos.  ;D That dough look so amazing at Pizza Bianca @ Forno Campo de'Fiori.  The finished pizza bianca looks so nice, light and airy, too!

Do you mind telling me what protein flour you used when you made your Pizza Bianca?

Your help is appreciated.  :)

Norma

re: flour
I went with a canadian flour (high gluten). I think traditional Pizza Bianca uses a very strong/reinforced 00 flour or perhaps a blend - I'm not sure. One video I saw of Forno Roscioli (also in Rome) showed a bag of what I believe was Durum flour stacked up against a wall - although it made no clear indication that was used in their Pizza Bianca. If I recall correctly, I've been able to get a ~80% dough to hold together with Caputo Pizzeria in the past...I don't remember how it turned out though.

Thanks for all the links re: Sullivan Street and Grandaisy. Interesting to read the details of the split between Lahey and Calderón.
I think most of Lahey's breads are hybrid starter and baker's yeast. Not sure about Grandaisy. Their website used to say something amounting to the fact that none of their breads were ?true? or ?pure? sourdough....which could be interpreted several ways I guess.

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2010, 11:36:14 PM »
Toby,

Thanks for telling me what kind of flour you went with.  After I do more research on Jim Lahey’s Pizza Bianca, I will try one of the kinds of flour I have.  I do have durum flour, Caputo Pizzeria, and KASL. 

Norma
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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2010, 11:41:05 PM »
Toby,

Thanks for telling me what kind of flour you went with.  After I do more research on Jim Lahey’s Pizza Bianca, I will try one of the kinds of flour I have.  I do have durum flour, Caputo Pizzeria, and KASL. 

Norma
You're most welcome. I think most bread flours would work fine - as would KA AP (which is pretty strong for an AP, since it's milled from hard wheat).
Jim Lahey did once mention that Sullivan Street uses Conagra flour:
http://www.seriouseats.com/2010/01/is-heirloom-wheat-the-next-big-baking-trend-jim-lahey.html


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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2010, 11:47:33 PM »
You're most welcome. I think most bread flours would work fine - as would KA AP (which is pretty strong for an AP, since it's milled from hard wheat).
Jim Lahey did once mention that Sullivan Street uses Conagra flour:
http://www.seriouseats.com/2010/01/is-heirloom-wheat-the-next-big-baking-trend-jim-lahey.html



Toby,

Thanks for telling me what flours you think might work.  That also was a good find about Jim Lahey using Conagra flour.

Norma
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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2010, 05:00:29 AM »

The details of the Sullivan Street Starter are no longer available on the current website, but retrieved from "menupages" google cache (as recent as October 2010):

This picture from 2005 indicates that the Pizza Bianca formula contains both starter and baker's yeast:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/roboppy/30224795/

FWIW attached are some pics from my own pizza bianca style bakes (baker's yeast, no starter, 80% hydration)


Toby,
Hope all is well.  As always, great to see you back, I hope you hang around for a while. ;)  Even though I'm Sicilian, I am a huge fan of pizza Romana ;D.  You're crumb is absolutely perfect, & identical to the crumb that I achieved from my last post in the Pizzarium thread.  What I have learned is that in order to achieve the optimal crumb structure you need to ensure that the dough is mixed to at least moderate gluten development which can be an extremely difficult task because of the high hydration.  You basically need to turn this batter into a dough.  I posted a video of my dough at using the double hydration method.  When making smaller batches I use this method http://www.gourmet.com/magazine/video/2008/03/bertinet_sweetdough which also works extremely well.  Do you use oil in your formula?  I omitted the oil in the last batch & found that without it, the finished product has a little too much crunch & loses a its softness.

Matt

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Re: Jim Lahey No Knead and Other High Hydration Doughs (Split Topic)
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2010, 08:35:08 AM »
A few more articles from searching about the kind of pizza I would like to recreate, if anyone is interested.

Jim Lahey’s beginnings if you scroll down.
http://www.iceculinary.com/professional/CE2007.shtml

Picture of patate (potato) pizza on Slice
http://newyork.seriouseats.com/2008/12/sullivan-street-bakery-review-hells-kitchen-manhattan-nyc.html

This article talks about Jim Lahey’s starter and using a pH meter for starter to see when it is ready.

http://www.foodinmouth.com/restaurant-reviews/2008/09/jim-lahey-and-nyce.html


Down in this article it reads Chad Robertson and Jim Lahey: As it happens, Lahey uses a sourdough starter and sometimes employs a similar folding technique in his own bakery. So why didn’t he recommend them when he wrote his 2009 book, My Bread: The Revolutionary No-Work, No-Knead Method? “Once you say the word fold to someone who is just learning to bake, that’s open license to molest and hump,” Lahey says. “You really need to practice restraint.” As for sourdough starters, Lahey plans to recommend one in his next book on bread. In his first book, “I just wanted to teach people how to roll over on their backs before they attempt to crawl,” he says. For his part, Robertson wants to show that making and using a sourdough starter—as intimidating as it sounds—isn’t all that difficult to do.

http://www.sanfranmag.com/story/breaking-bread

video of Jim Lahey making filone.

http://www.gourmet.com/food/video/2008/05/lahey_filone

Jim Lahey video of doughs and oven baking.



Grand Daisy Bakery video



Norma
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