Author Topic: A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?  (Read 2926 times)

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Offline wucactus1

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A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?
« on: January 06, 2011, 12:17:49 PM »
So I woke up yesterday morning around 7 with an itch to make some dough.  I am slowly falling in love the with whole process more and more, almost to a point where it out weighs my love for the taste of pizza(but this will never happen its just so delicious!).   With this in mind and a small time frame for baking and eating I decided to make a "same day" dough.  The dough had a room temp ferment of around 8 hours, then 3 in the fridge and another hour to get it back to room temp before baking.  With this said I was expecting the taste to suffer, but the real experiment didn't involve fermenting or taste, but I rather kneading and crumb texture. 

I have been using AT Bromated flour from some time now and have read that it develops gluten and amazing spring with ease and is really excels when given time to ferment so I have been using, typically 1-3 day cold rises to develop flavor and typically employ a minimal hand knead technique, that before fermenting has never really made my dough smooth, strong, or white, but I attributed this to the high hydration I use(65%), so i just throw it in my glad container and wait the couple days and bake the pizzas...They never turn out bad but I am not getting the crazy ovenspring that Chau or norma typically get out of their pizzas, but they rather resemble Difara's even after the fermenting...
Typical Formula:1-3 day Rise
Fl:100%
H2O:63-65%
Salt:2%
Oil:2-5%
IDY:.4%
Sugar:2-5%

Now sense school has been out for the holidays I decided to take this massive amount of free time to devote to pizza and experiments and have slowly moved away from the above formula to one that only uses 2% oil and 1% sugar...and I like it alot, not that they taste extremely different, but the fact that I am stream lining my dough and It still taste good, but taste isnt the issue here kneading is...so with a same day dough as the goal i couldnt rely on gluten development through cold fermentation and had to build it manually i embarked on a mission to handknead this dough until it resembled the dough from Chau's youtube videos...This sort of startled me as I have a great fear of overkneading the dough and this most likely stems from my ignorance around kneading (but that was the whole point of this wasn't it?)  with that said I employed a very typical procedure pre-autolyse and after it had come together into a pseudo ball I moved it to the bench and began doing the fold and push away method...over and over for maybe 2-4 minutes.  The dough wasnt getting tight and still rather loose(65% hydration) so I let it rest 1 minute and becan folding and pushing again for another 4 minutes or so until it formed an "almost smooth as a babys butt" ball.  I placed it in the container to rest for however long it took me to browse all the recent posts on the forum and watch chau's videos on balling. So I went to the kitchen and began to employ his newly discovered technique.  I folded the dough balling maybe 6 times...let it rest 10 minutes and did it again...I had a nice smooth, tight, white dough, placed it in a bowl waited and baked it, amazing...Im assuming this had to do with the kneading... or maybe it was the yeast amount, due to it being a same day dough...IDK but would love to reproduce this over and over, and i guess the only way to truly know is experimentation and repetition...
Same Day Formula
Fl:100%
H2O:65%
Salt:2.5%
IDY:.8%
Oil:2%
Suagr:1%

Question:
Now could this tight kneading be used when doing multi-day ferments or would this overly develop the dough?


Offline wucactus1

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Re: A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2011, 12:36:46 PM »
Overall photo

Offline wucactus1

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Re: A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2011, 12:38:32 PM »
Crumb

Offline wucactus1

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Re: A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2011, 12:39:57 PM »
Char.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2011, 12:59:52 PM »
pizza looks very good.  How was the taste and texture? Yes, just knead/fold/ball less if cold fermenting.

Offline wucactus1

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Re: A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2011, 01:14:17 PM »
The taste was suprisingly good, but not so much on the dough side as much from everything else...Since pizza has evolved more from just, making pizza every once and a while to a slight obsession I have begun investing in really good ingredients and use those so even if my dough falls short or in this case is a same day, the toppings hit it home...
Here I used boars head cheese and pep, some organic feta, my handmade sauce from muir glen crushed(surprisingly decent(ran out out escalon, need to re order)) delallo banana pepp and organic spinach...Topped with Fillipo evoo and hand grated while the pizza was baking Garna Padano...very much influenced by Dom and everyone of my family members and friends love the olive oil pre and post bake!

With regards to the kneading how much less should it be?  Should it look really smooth and tighter before the fridge or very loose as I have done before, perhaps even somewhere in the middle?

what toppings do you perfer? I would love to check out some new brands!

Pizza01

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Re: A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2011, 04:57:42 PM »
very nice pie. lots air holes.
chau where is the link to your utube video? i will love to see it.

buceriasdon

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Re: A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2011, 05:14:20 PM »
Indeed, Nice looking pie.  ;D
Don

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2011, 09:48:24 PM »
The taste was suprisingly good, but not so much on the dough side as much from everything else...Since pizza has evolved more from just, making pizza every once and a while to a slight obsession I have begun investing in really good ingredients and use those so even if my dough falls short or in this case is a same day, the toppings hit it home...
Here I used boars head cheese and pep, some organic feta, my handmade sauce from muir glen crushed(surprisingly decent(ran out out escalon, need to re order)) delallo banana pepp and organic spinach...Topped with Fillipo evoo and hand grated while the pizza was baking Garna Padano...very much influenced by Dom and everyone of my family members and friends love the olive oil pre and post bake!

With regards to the kneading how much less should it be?  Should it look really smooth and tighter before the fridge or very loose as I have done before, perhaps even somewhere in the middle?

what toppings do you perfer? I would love to check out some new brands!

I agree that pizza is more than just the crust.  You absolutely need a great crust, but aside from that you also need a good quality sauce and quality cheeses.  When you marry all 3 with the company of friends, you have fantastic pizza.   It sounds like you are using some quality products.  I also like Dom's method of combining 2-3 cheeses, topped with OO, and a good parm/romano/grana padano, and lots of fresh basil. 

As far as toppings go, I like simplistic.  I really like a traditional margherita pie with a good bufala or cow's milk mozz and a sprinkle of sea salt.  I also like pepperoni with mush or jalapenos.  My recent favorites have been shrimp with garlic slivers, or an alfredo pizza.   Arugula and pine nuts are always good as well. 

As far as kneading for a cold ferment, it's really just trial and error.  Experiment and see what works for you.  It's impossible for me to say how long to knead or how many folds to do as that all depends on the strength of the flour, the hydration ratio, use of oil or not, hand or machine kneading, etc.    For a HG flour like AT's i would stick with a minimal knead of a few minutes.  Bulk rise for an hour or so and divided and ball before going into the fridge.  After the dough has bulked for an hour, the dough should become smooth as you ball it.   Not too many folds during the balling stage.  Just keep track of how many folds you do and then note how the dough opens and adjust it from there. 

As far as cold ferments and flavor goes.  I am decidely not a fan of cold ferments.  I can make good pizza with cold fermented dough but choose not to.  Cold ferments tend to give me a drier than I like crumb unless I use about 2% oil in the dough.   You can develop a similar or even the same flavor in the dough with a same day dough (< 24h room temp ferment) by using a high percentage of active starter - 20-50%+.  I can even make sourdough bread with a same day dough.  As sour as you would like with as much flavor as you like.   I just don't like the heavier texture i get with well fermented doughs (whether it's a same day or cold fermented dough).  I have not been able to make a light as air texture sourdough bread and doubt that one exist but if anyone can enlighten me, I'm all ears.

Wucatus1, your first post sounds like A LOT of folding and kneading, but if it produced a good result then I wouldn't change it.   It's really just practicing and paying attention to the dough consistency during intermittent intervals during the dough making process.  You know that you have overkneaded or overfolded if the dough is tough to open and/or produces a dry and tough crumb.   By looking at your picure, I would say the crumb looks fantastic.  It's open, airy, and most importantly moist looking.  Dry looking crumbs are chew and leathery, and no doubt you did a fantastic job. 

Im my mind, texture is much much more important than the "flavor" of the crust.  It's important to have both and you can balance it out, but if I had to choose one over the other, I would go with texture any day. 

Good luck,
Chau

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2011, 09:53:04 PM »
very nice pie. lots air holes.
chau where is the link to your utube video? i will love to see it.


Micheal, I believe the video Wucatus1 is referring to is here in reply #87

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11962.80.html

Chau


Pizza01

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Re: A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2011, 10:47:09 PM »
saw it, you gave me the idea about traping the air, very good. your dough balls looks very good chau.
i also have a tatto in left arm  :) but on outer side of it, its new. my baby girl 10 months olds name.
whats writen on yours ?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 07:52:48 AM by msheetrit »

Offline wucactus1

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Re: A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2011, 12:14:49 AM »
Alright I have just finished another dough ball using the same formula, except this time I used .4% yeast and hope to make this dough in approx. 36 hours...
I hand kneaded the dough for 3 minutes, let it rest for 5 and kneaded another minute, then let it rest again for 40 minutes and did a couple of final folds(too trap some air) and placed it in an oiled container.  Hopefully I will be able to mimic and consistently produce this crumb structure, but with a more developed flavor...Only time will tell!

Pic of final ball below.

Offline wucactus1

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Re: A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2011, 12:44:17 AM »
Ball

Offline wucactus1

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Re: A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2011, 11:11:41 PM »
Sorry still jacked from the bake...ever since seeing pictures of crazy blown up dough, with beautiful spring I have made it my goal to achieve the best results I could with the equipment available to me, much like the first american pizza makers back in the early 1900s and I think my dough has reached a pinnacle that will be hard to surpass and a must to continuously replicate.  With this said,  I baked up the cold fermented dough ball tonight and WOW!  I have never personally seen or tasted a pizza like the one I just made...not out of any pizzeria including the "VPN" certified place Smashing Tomato in Lexington...or any joint Claiming NY style"  and stand strong with my words that this is indeed the best slice in KY and family agrees...even without the fancy grande cheese and deck/wfo all the commercial places use.  My dough, procedure, and sauce are just light years ahead, granted I am doing this at a much smaller scale, NO EXCUSE!  Im using a home gas oven and a stone from Target which still getting results that smack the local pizzerias in the face with oven spring!

After this I feel really comfortable with what it takes to get a good 30-36hr cold fermented dough, and now I want to try a full room temp rise at either 24-30hrs...what will this take and is oven spring like this still attainable?

Pics are as follows
1 overall of cold fermented dough
2 crumb of CFD
3 underskirt of CFD

then Bonus...a frozen dough ball I found in my freezer I made around 1.5 weeks ago...still good ovenspring despite the freezer and such 

Offline wucactus1

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Re: A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2011, 11:12:03 PM »
...

Offline wucactus1

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Re: A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2011, 11:12:27 PM »
...

Offline wucactus1

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Re: A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2011, 11:13:14 PM »
Bonus

Offline wucactus1

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Re: A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2011, 11:13:40 PM »
Bonus, again...

Offline wucactus1

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Re: A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2011, 11:14:29 PM »
...sorry...

Offline chickenparm

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Re: A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2011, 12:15:56 AM »
Those look incredibly tasty and fantastic! Love the spring and rim voids.Love the color of the crust on the bottom as well!
 :chef:
-Bill