A Late Night Snack...Kneading Perfection?

[wucactus1]

thanks parm!  I used only 1% sugar to help with the browning and it definitely makes a difference as opposed to 0% in my oven and the oven spring is made possible through an adaption of tran's kneading technique from youtube and the AT bleached bromated flour, its amazing and there is nothing like it here in louisville...which is a shame, the people are missing out on great pizza...how are your experiments coming? Had any good pizza lately here in ky?

[chickenparm]

thanks parm!  I used only 1% sugar to help with the browning and it definitely makes a difference as opposed to 0% in my oven and the oven spring is made possible through an adaption of tran's kneading technique from youtube and the AT bleached bromated flour, its amazing and there is nothing like it here in louisville...which is a shame, the people are missing out on great pizza...how are your experiments coming? Had any good pizza lately here in ky?

Glad you are having those great results!Your hard work and attention to detail is paying off!

Also,Nothing wrong with a little sugar at times..I use a little as well when needed and my crusts still never taste anything sweet-cheap like the chains that worship the stuff.
 
I have put most of my pizza making on hold for a little bit now.Had too much to do,been busy etc.Im still more or less on the hunt for making a great sauce.I have made good and lousy ones,but just havent found that one mix that making me salivate just yet.

Still have not had any new experiences in KY,haven't gone out much.I made a topic about Joeys House of Pizza in the review section and I plan to make a road trip to there in TN soon.Just for kicks...they are NYorkers that opened up 2 places some years back outside of Nashville.Nash is like 90 miles from home so not a bad ride to go on sometime.

Varasanos is next...Im about 6 hours from there so thats def in the plans.
 

[Jackie Tran]

Very nice job Wucatus1.   You did an excellent job on your latest pizzas.  The crumb in reply #14 is EXCELLENT.   For sure, they really don't come any nicer than that.  And I know just how that must have tasted as well.  Very air and light looking with just the right amount of moisture.  Doesn't look the least bit dry to me at all.   Very very nice job. 

Chau

[wucactus1]

I owe the results to that youtube video...I think only formulas can go so far in terms of the dough, but technique is what can make or break the pizza if the recipe isnt somewhat convoluted.  The video was the first time I was able to see what a well kneaded dough looked like and how to ball and fold dough to trap air which is genius. This obviously isnt the only reason why I got the oven spring I got, but a major factor in it, without this newly gained knowledge I would probably still be producing slightly above average pizza, but again that video boosted me past mediocrity.
I am now back in Lexington ky preparing for school to begin(tomorrow...) pizza production will slow slightly, but I am now faced with challenge of reproducing these results in a different oven.  Im looking forward to seeing who it will turnout when it is made.

anyone got any information on 24 hour room temp ferments in standard home ovens?  I have read some what about them and it seems to be somewhat standard in neopolitan pizza, but is less frequently used within the NY style...I would to try it, but am curious about the potential results.

[Pete-zza]

anyone got any information on 24 hour room temp ferments in standard home ovens?  I have read some what about them and it seems to be somewhat standard in Neapolitan pizza, but is less frequently used within the NY style...I would to try it, but am curious about the potential results.

wucactus1,

Long, room-temperature fermented doughs are common for the Neapolitan style, especially among several of our members, but such a protocol is not limited to that style or to very high temperature ovens. See, for example, the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.0.html. But, whatever you do, please do not ignore your studies.

Peter

[Jackie Tran]

Wucatcus1, you have already accomplished the hardest part of dough making, the proper crust & crumb texture.  The 24 hour room temp ferment is easy.  All you have to do is adjust your yeast level accordingly.  I'll post a few links to some 24h pies I've made later.

Chau

[wucactus1]

Thanks Pete, but you dont have to worry about that...Despite my bad time management skills from time to time, my girlfriend and I are very serious and diligent about school and when we have too things sometimes shut down and all we do is study, eat, and sleep...well sometimes we eat and sleep. With that said I appreciate your concern and promise you not to put pizza ahead of school.

And Tran I would love to see the process and some of your room temp pizzas, would you say the room temps flavor and texture possiblity is comparable to a 36 hour cold ferment dough?  Just wondering what I should expect out of taste and texture.

[Jackie Tran]

Wucatus1, I have made numerous 18-22-24 hr pies with good results.  It's mostly just playing around with the amount of yeast used to control how long you want the dough to ferment until it's ready.  You can use the same recipe you have been using and just vary the amount of yeast.  Then keep a log somewhere of % of yeast used along with other details and how long it took to ferement at what temps.  This will be valuable information later.

I'll admit, I don't have a lot of experience with cold ferments.  The numerous times I've tried using this technique I have a hard time achieving my desired texture.   I often get a drier or tougher crumb relative to a 6-12h same day dough.  It may not be a big difference to some, but for me it's night and day.  I am not as familiar with the subtle/delicate/intricate flavors of a cold ferment as many others are.  To me, I can taste sour and varying degrees of sourness.   I think this is what members refer to as a richer or deeper flavor profile.   I like a little tang in the dough but not a lot.   I try to keep things simple by associating proportional degrees of sourdough flavor and texture to the degree of fermentation.  I like doughs that are considered young doughs over mature doughs if that makes sense.  

Can you get a comparable flavor in a room temp dough compared to a 3-5 day cold fermentation?  The answer is a bit subjective and relative to the type and % of yeast use but generally I would have to say yes.   I haven't made a same day sourdough with commercial yeast but I'm sure it's possible.   What I have made is a same day dough using starters and have gotten sourdough results.  

Here are a few SD pies made with a starter and a 21h room temp ferment.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12390.40.html

Here is a 23h room fermented dough with 3% starter that made a very good sourdough bread.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.60.html

Along this line, there are numerous members who have also overfermented same day doughs using starters in the sub 20h range.  

Can you achieve the same texture of a cold fermented dough in a same day dough.  Hmmm, even tougher question to answer.  I don't fully understand fermentation so maybe Peter or someone else can give a better answer.   Again, I try to think of fermentation in a simple linear process.  I'm sure fermentation is much more complex process than I know or care to know about but for my purposes, I've dummied it down a bit.   Depending on the amount of yeast used, it eats up the food sources, makes it's byproducts, and dough is fermented.  We can hasten or slow this process by changing the temp of fermentation.   So whether a dough is slowly fermenting at cold temps or quickly fermenting at high temps, it's going through the same process.  As we go throug this process we can get expected flavor and texture changes along the way. The further the fermentation, the more flavor and the denser the crumb becomes (SD texture).    

So yes, if you take a same day dough towards the end of fermentation, it will have certain flavors and texture associated with it similar to a sourdough bread.  IMO, I believe these are the same flavors and textures of cold fermented doughs but I can't be sure of that.  Again, I have very limited experience with the subtleties of cold fermented dough along with my bias for same day doughs prevents me from giving a fair and accurate comparison.

Now to ask some really tough questions of an extreme comparison.  What if we took a 1-2 hour emergency dough with a high percentage Starter and let it reach maximal fermentation and compared that to a lower yeasted 3-4 day cold fermentation.   What will be the similarities?  What will be the differences?  Will one be better than the other?  Will they have some similarities and some differences? Will they have the same flavors but different textures?  Hmmmm, I don't know but if I had more time I would do the test.  Perhaps in the future somtime.  

But enough theorizing.  You are probably just interested in knowing if you can make a good same day pizza with good flavor.  Peter has been around a long time and would be able to direct you better.  I've only been on this forum since last April/March.   Recently I have been playing around with a same day technique that involves 20-30% active starter with a small amount of IDY.   The starter for the "flavor" and the bit of IDY for added lift all in a 6-8 hour time frame.   Member Straybullet has found favor with this technique and posted recently about it here...

Reply #88-#93, #96
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.80.html

Good luck and keep making those great looking pies.
Chau

[wucactus1]

I have been kicking around the idea of incorporating the use of starters and what not into my dough, but have found it hard to find one thread with the concentrated information, rather i notice that all the tidbits of info tend to be scattered throughout the forum which isnt a bad thing, just makes it a little harder to consolidate a procedure, but I will persevere someday and gather this knowledge and attempt to make a starter by capturing the natural yeast local to me...maybe make a 100% local pizza?  The idea of purity accomplished through the use of starters in interesting as is the gamble one faces by putting themselves at mercy to such an unpredictable thing, maybe its all worth it, but for now especially with school starting and limited time to monitor an extra variable such as the development of a culture I will have to stick with IDY...maybe doing a 24+ hour ferment or 3-7 day cold ferment will give me a hint of the flavors sourdough attribute.  But I guess goal number one is to succesfully replicate the pizza I had just made, huh?  Well again I appreciate everyones input and thank you again Chau for all the insightful information you have contributed...I cant thank you enough!
My girlfriend just had her wisdom teeth taken out and because of this is unable to eat pizza, but hopefully I can bake something off this weekend, maybe sunday?  Anyway whenever I bake It I will try and post as many pictures of the process and the final bakes...Until then keep the ovens hot and the Pizzas perfect!

[Pete-zza]

Chau,

When I first started playing around with natural starters/preferments, it was in the context of making Neapolitan style doughs. At first, I used the starter solely as a leavening agent, along the lines promoted by Marco (pizzanapoletana) where the amount of starter was very small (up to about 5% of the formula water). Subsequently, or maybe somewhat in parallel, I also used natural leavening system to make Lehmann NY style doughs. For most of those experiments, my recollection is that I used preferment quantities of starter culture, at about 20% of the total formula flour. Once I got those experiments out of my system, I turned my attention to making non-Neapolitan style doughs using commercial yeast (it might be recalled that Marco also had a fresh yeast version of his Crisceto dough formulation, with yeast used in minuscule quantities). That effort is reflected in the thread previously referenced at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.0.html. One of the things that came out of those experiments is that I felt that a 20-24 hour room temperature fermented dough was equivalent to a dough that has been subjected to several days of cold fermentation. I was not the first one on the forum to make that kind of comparison. Marco did and member November did also.

You have mentioned on one or possibly more occasions about whether one can get sourdough type flavors in a same-day dough (or maybe a 24-hour dough) using commercial yeast alone and fermented at room temperature. In all my experiments with commercially leavened doughs fermented at room temperature for about a day, the flavors were pleasant but not with a sourdough flavor profile. I seriously question whether that can be done with a commercially leavened dough fermented for about a day at room temperature. My analysis says that if that were possible, commercial commissary doughs used in supermarkets could be made that way and wouldn't need additives and other chemicals that impart sourdough and comparable flavors to the finished products, such as sours, lactic acid, citric acid, fumaric acid, etc. I have eaten many commissary based breads with those chemicals and they are sour but with a somewhat medicinal, fake flavor profile. I call them faux sourdough breads. The closest I have come to achieving pizza crusts with a texture and flavor profile that approximates what I have gotten using natural starters/preferments is with doughs that have been cold fermented for a couple of weeks or more.

The above said, one of the things that I look for in a dough formulation that uses commercial yeast and is intended to be fermented at room temperature is whether the fermentation period is convenient. By convenient, I mean that the dough can be made by a person who holds a full time day job and would like to use the dough during work days, not just weekends where more attention can be given to the dough. Many of the dough formulations that I have seen have such odd fermentation periods that would work for only those who are housebound, or they require a lot of attention and intervention over the fermentation period, that the doughs aren't convenient to make from a scheduling standpoint for a person with a normal work day. I think a 20-24 hour fermentation is more convenient than other periods (like 12 hours) but ideally I would not want to have to touch the dough during that period, if that is possible. One downside of a 20-24 hour room temperature fermented dough is that the protease enzymes do a number on the gluten structure during such a long fermentation period. That might require some reshaping of the dough ball to compensate for that damage. Room temperature fermented doughs are among the easiest to put together but they are among the hardest to achieve success with because of variations in room temperatures during fermentation. Both the amount of yeast and the room temperature at which the dough is to ferment have to be right.

Peter

[wucactus1]

Well written pete...and with that said I think I am going refrain from the 20+ hour dough as the though of punching down and restructuring gluten scares me...Its just another step for something to go wrong.  Maybe when I have repeated this dough numerous time and know I can will it whenever I please I will start to experiment, who knows maybe I should stop being a little girl and grow some balls and thrust myself at it willingly accepting the idea of failure...

[Glutenboy]

Beautiful crumb and nice char!

[wucactus1]

Thanks Gluten! I appreciate it...Hopefully the next pizzas will turnout just as good!

[Jackie Tran]

Good info Peter.   Although it seems like I should be able to make a sourdough with a commercial yeasted dough in a 24h time frame given a high enough yeast %, apparently commercial yeast is very much different from natural yeast.  Upon giving this matter further thought, I vaguely remember allowing a few same day doughs to proof to the point that they collapsed under their own weight and I don't recall them being sour.  If they were starter doughs, there definitely would have been some sourness.

Wucatcus1, don't be afraid to experiment and fail.   When working on any challenge or goal, I often have many failures before I can figure out a workable solution.  I get much satisfaction out of figuring something out when it's not so easy. 

Chau