Author Topic: Getting more 'Chew'  (Read 5008 times)

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Offline AnnieK

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Getting more 'Chew'
« on: January 20, 2011, 10:35:05 PM »
Hi- First I must admit that I am completely new to this board. This seems like a great resource.

That being said, I did some due diligence and searched the forums to see if I could find my answer. Since I didn't, I'm going to go ahead and post this, so go easy on me, K :)

Okay, I've owned an East-coast style pizzeria for 5 years now. We make our dough in house, which I think is pretty darn tasty, But! lately I have been having some dough envy for a crust with a bit more 'Chew' in it. Ours is fairly tender, with a crisp, nicely browning crust. It has some chew for sure, but I would call it 'light.' on the chew scale. I'm not looking to tear anybody's teeth out of their mouths, but I have really been enjoying crusts that give that nice bite.

I've googled plenty, and scoured the amazing 'Encylopizza', but I am just not fluent enough in techy dough speak to know which direction to point my finger at.

Soooo...... I thought that if I posted my dough recipe, possibly someone with that awesome techy knowledge could take a quick look and say "yes, that's your issue."

Thank for taking a look.

This is full commercial quantities here.

13 Qt. Water
.16 lb Cake yeast
.42 lb Salt
.30 lb Sugar (white granulated)
.08 lb Garlic powder
1 lb Vegetable shortening
50 lb All Trumps white flour (Gluten content is I believe around 12-14% on the All Trumps)
12 oz Olive Oil added halfway through mixing

I mix for approx. 5 minutes prior to adding the oil, and another 5 with oil.

We ball the dough by hand, cover and let rest for generally a full day prior to use.

Okay, that's it. If someone sees something glaring that I am possibly adding too much of or not enough, please make some suggestions!

Thanks again


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Getting more 'Chew'
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2011, 10:46:36 PM »
AnnieK,

Is the oil by weight or by volume? And what is a typical dough ball weight and corresponding pizza size? Are the dough balls cold fermented in your cooler? Do you know the brand of garlic powder and is it really a powder rather than minced? What kind of oven are you using and what is a typical bake temperature and time?

Finally, what is an East-Coast style pizza (or pizzeria)?

Peter
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 09:17:03 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline scott123

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Re: Getting more 'Chew'
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2011, 04:14:41 AM »
Anne, there's two factors impacting your level of chewiness, one big, one small. 

Hydration

The big factor is water quantity.  Bakers converse in the universal language of percentages. The ratio of water weight to flour weight in a recipe is called the hydration and is expressed in percent. For instance, 1 lb. water and 2 lb flour will produce a dough with 50% hydration.  All the ingredients can be treated as a fraction of the flour. I plugged your numbers into a calculation tool and came up with the baker's percentages (see image at the bottom).  As you can see, you're currently working with 54% hydration.

54% hydration is, for NY style using All Trumps flour, very little water. Well below the industry norm.  Doughs with less water tend to be softer and breadier, while doughs with more water produce a chewier end product (and, up to a point, better oven spring). For a more traditional, chewier crust, you'll want to shoot for between 60 and 65% hydration. I would give 14.5 quarts of water a try- that's 60% hydration.  Bear in mind, as you increase the water, the yeast activity will go up and the dough will be slacker/handle differently, so do a few small test runs to check fermentation times/dough manageability before increasing the hydration on your production dough.

Oil Quantity/Type

A smaller factor contributing to your lack of chewiness is the quantity of oil and type of oil you're using.  Again, looking at your baker's percentages below, your total oil content (shortening + olive oil) is 3.5%. Oil promotes tenderness by interfering with gluten development and harder fats like shortening tend to interfere with gluten development even more.  You can walk into any pizzeria in the NY metro area and you will never find shortening in the dough.  So, my recomendation is to nix the shortening, go with 100% regular olive oil and dial it back to 3% or less- that translates into a pound and half of olive oil.


A third aspect that you might want to take a look at is baking time.  As you shorten the bake time, the crust gets puffier and chewier.  How long are you baking your pies now?

Also, unless you're working with very salty toppings and/or salty cheese, you need more salt in the dough.  Double the salt- and, since it will affect the way the dough ferments and handles, test it first with the increased hydration doughs I mentioned above.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 04:18:44 AM by scott123 »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Getting more 'Chew'
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2011, 07:11:40 AM »
Anne, there's two factors impacting your level of chewiness, one big, one small. 

Also, kneading time can have a major impact on the chewiness of a dough. Try mixing for longer to see if that gives something more to your liking.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Getting more 'Chew'
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2011, 07:18:32 AM »
I agree, if you drop your % of oil and keep the same mix times, you should get more chew.  If you decreased the oil and increase your mix times, you'll get even more chew.  It's just a matter of experimenting to see what you like.  I would change one thing at a time though.   The hydration change seems like a good one Scot.  I didn't even think about that. 

Annie, also you prefer a chewier product but do you think your regular customers will notice and accept the change?  No doubt there is a certain percentage who have grown to like the current crust. 

Chau

Offline scott123

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Re: Getting more 'Chew'
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2011, 08:45:04 AM »
Also, kneading time can have a major impact on the chewiness of a dough. Try mixing for longer to see if that gives something more to your liking.

While I agree that additional kneading can increase chewiness, I think that, for an overnight fermented All Trumps dough, 10 minutes total mix time is plenty, possibly even too much. I focused on the water because it was so much outside of the norm, and while there is no 'norm' for kneading because most NY pizzerias don't do full day ferments, in my own experience, All Trumps + extended time really favors minimal kneading. I don't go as low as 60% hydration, but I can say that a 62% full day fermented All Trumps dough with a 10 minute total mix time will yield a crust that's so tough, it's barely edible. I guess, in theory, Anne could increase her knead at her current hydration, but I think the better choice is to fully embrace the style and gain the additional chew (and possibly more spring) from the extra water.

Annie, also you prefer a chewier product but do you think your regular customers will notice and accept the change?  No doubt there is a certain percentage who have grown to like the current crust.

That's a good point, Chau.  I did a little googling and it appears that the Hot Tomato has a bit of a following. Maybe those Coloradans prefer a lower hydration higher oil crust. I go around under the assumption that everyone should prefer authentic NY style pizza, but, let's face it, I'm a New Yorker, so I have to believe that  :P


Offline AnnieK

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Re: Getting more 'Chew'
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2011, 11:16:29 AM »
Hi All. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Scott, your comments are fantastic, thank you for plugging that all in the calculator. I had no clue our water percentage was so low!
For a starting point I am going to try changing our water content, increased salt and nix the shortening today and compare the batch with my current one.

For the moment I am going to try these changes with keeping our current mix times.

To answer several questions;

We bake on a deck oven set at 500 degrees. Since we don't have ovens with any sort of heat curtain, time of baking depends on our traffic, i.e. how often we are opening those ovens and losing valuable heat... A solo cheese pizza in the oven, baking uninterrupted, bakes for around 6-7 minutes.

We hold our dough at room temp for about an hour, and then cold ferment in our walk-in after that until the dough is used. I should clarify, we make our dough early in the morning, and then generally begin pulling from it by the night time shift. So the dough rests for, I'd say, 8-10 hrs prior to use.

Also, we use granulated garlic.

And finally, dough is pounded and tossed by hand, no presses.

Yeah Jackie, I hear you about our customer's preference, so I don't want to overdo it by any means. We have a fabulous customer base, and I don't think we are terribly far off the mark, but just not quite 'there' yet with how I want our dough to taste. I'll try this and solicit some feedback. There's a surprising amount of east coast transplants in Colorado, and as I am sure you guys know, they don't hold back on honesty :)

Thanks again, I'll post with results!

Offline scott123

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Re: Getting more 'Chew'
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2011, 02:13:14 PM »
Anne, thank you for your kind words  :)

We bake on a deck oven set at 500 degrees. Since we don't have ovens with any sort of heat curtain, time of baking depends on our traffic, i.e. how often we are opening those ovens and losing valuable heat... A solo cheese pizza in the oven, baking uninterrupted, bakes for around 6-7 minutes.

I'm curious, is 500 as high as your oven will go?  Adding water without increasing the heat will extend the baking time.  If your best case scenario is 6-7 minutes, then making the move from 54% hydration to 60% could easily tack on another couple minutes to the equation, and, for NY style, that's not where you want to be. As the bake time increases, you lose a lot of oven spring. Anything more than 7 minutes is, imo, the kiss of death for great NY pizza. Personally, I'm a huge 4 minute bake fan.  That, to me, is where the magic lies. I'm not necessarily recommending a 4 minute bake time to you- I've seen photos of your pizzas and the crust has an even golden hue- something that you'd most likely jeopardize at shorter times, but if your oven is maxed out at 500, then I think we might need to rethink the 60% idea rather than extend the bake time any further than it is now.

Would you happen to know what kind of material your hearth is made out of and what thickness it is? Have you had this oven for while? Is the hearth in good shape?

If 500 is as high as your oven will go, then, for now, I'd say hold off on the move to 60%.  Maybe try 57%.

How are your dough balls looking after 8 hours? Has the dough at least doubled? The extra salt is really going to slow down the yeast activity.  I started off with around 2% salt years ago and have never really altered it, so I have no experience with salt adjustments, but I do know that with twice as much salt you're going to need more yeast. Perhaps someone else can chime in, but I'll take a shot in the dark and recommend trying .23 lb cake yeast which translates into .46%. Like I said before, don't make a full a recipe.  With these alterations, it could be ready in 6 hours or it could be ready in 12.

Offline AnnieK

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Re: Getting more 'Chew'
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2011, 02:52:21 PM »
Hi Scott-

We currently have a two tiered Blodgett deck oven. Yes, the ovens are old. And, yes, they will go above 500 degrees. The problem we have run into is that we also do calzones and strombolis, and when we crank the ovens higher, we just can't get the insides of either to fully cook without running into the issue of burning the outsides.

However, that being said, we are currently in the process of looking into replacement ovens, specifically the Rotoflex. Our ovens have been at capacity for quite some time, (that's maybe an understatement), and we desperately need to upgrade to keep up with our workflow. The multi-tiered approach of the Rotoflex seems like it could allow for a higher temp and would allow us to bake at faster times. I believe they have a temperature variance of up to 50 degrees depending on what shelf the pie is being baked on, which could solve the calzone/stromboli issue.

So I guess in short, our current ovens will only play into the equation for another month or so.

Just out of curiosity, as I assume you have your own place; what oven set-up are you using for your pies and at what temp? A 4 minute bake time sounds like a dream during our busy season. Our bake times slow way down when we are busy, it's frustrating to say the least and for sure affects the crust.

As far as rise goes, our dough balls have doubled after 8 hours. That makes sense on the extra yeast, I should obviously throw that into the equation as well. Sounds like I have my work cut out for me for the next couple of weeks!

Thanks again for the great advice.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Getting more 'Chew'
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2011, 03:12:24 PM »
To satisfy my curiosity, I did some conversions and used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with a baker's percent version of Anne's dough formulation as she originally presented it. The expanded dough calculating tool does not have garlic powder in the list of ingredients, so I usurped another field in the tool and used one of my little tricks to be able to include the garlic powder in the final dough formulation. Since no brand of garlic powder was mentioned, I used the data on garlic powder at the NutritionSelfData website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/spices-and-herbs/190/2 as a proxy for the garlic powder that Anne is using. For the water, I measured out a quart, weighed it, and used that number to calculate the total water weight. What I ended up with is the following:

All Trumps Flour (100%):
Water (52.8125%):
CY (0.32%):
Salt (0.84%):
Olive Oil (1.42857%):
Sugar (0.60%):
Shortening (2%):
Garlic Powder (0.16%):
Total (158.16107%):
22680.01 g  |  800 oz | 50 lbs
11977.88 g  |  422.5 oz | 26.41 lbs
72.58 g | 2.56 oz | 0.16 lbs |
190.51 g | 6.72 oz | 0.42 lbs | 11.38 tbsp | 0.71 cups
324 g | 11.43 oz | 0.71 lbs | 24 tbsp | 1.5 cups
136.08 g | 4.8 oz | 0.3 lbs | 11.38 tbsp | 0.71 cups
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs | 37.84 tbsp | 2.37 cups
36.29 g | 1.28 oz | 0.08 lbs | 13.61 tsp | 4.53 tbsp
35870.94 g | 1265.29 oz | 79.08 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

One observation that I will make is that the oil and, perhaps to a lesser degree the shortening, also have a "wetting" effect on the dough. So, adding their baker's percents to the hydration baker's percent gives us a total of 56.24%. While not an off-the-wall value in a commercial setting, it is perhaps on the low side for All Trumps flour. But if the hydration value itself is raised to 60-65%, that means that either or both of the fats have to be reduced or eliminated, as Anne plans to do. BTW, it is fairly common to reduce or eliminate fats in a dough formulation to get a more chewy crust.

I could not calculate a thickness factor since Anne did not provide a dough ball weight and corresponding pizza size to allow me to perform the calculation. My thinking was that the thickness factor might tell me the style or type of pizza being made (there are several East-coast styles) and also whether the crust thickness is proper in relation to the bake time and temperature. If an overly thick crust was being used, simply reducing the thickness alone might solve the problem. However, my instincts are that some hydration adjustment may be needed. I also agree with scott123 that the salt is on the low side. My advocacy is not to try to make too many changes at one time, especially if the dough is not a failed dough and needs only a tweak here or there.

In case Anne wants to use the expanded dough calculating tool once she makes the planned adjustments, for convenience she might want to use a dough formulation that does not include garlic powder. As noted in the above dough formulation, the amount of garlic powder is so small in relation to everything else that it does not materially affect the total dough weight. If we back out the garlic powder, we end up with the following:

All Trumps Flour (100%):
Water (52.8125%):
CY (0.32%):
Salt (0.84%):
Olive Oil (1.42857%):
Sugar (0.60%):
Shortening (2%):
Total (158.00107%):
22680.01 g  |  800 oz | 50 lbs
11977.88 g  |  422.5 oz | 26.41 lbs
72.58 g | 2.56 oz | 0.16 lbs |
190.51 g | 6.72 oz | 0.42 lbs | 11.38 tbsp | 0.71 cups
324 g | 11.43 oz | 0.71 lbs | 24 tbsp | 1.5 cups
136.08 g | 4.8 oz | 0.3 lbs | 11.38 tbsp | 0.71 cups
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs | 37.84 tbsp | 2.37 cups
35834.66 g | 1264.01 oz | 79 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

Peter
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 06:12:57 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline AnnieK

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Re: Getting more 'Chew'
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2011, 03:52:22 PM »
Hi Peter-

Thank you, and thanks for those links!

To answer your question, if this helps; We use a dough ball that is 1.42 lb in weight to make both our large, 18" pie, and our house 20" pie.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Getting more 'Chew'
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2011, 04:13:11 PM »
We use a dough ball that is 1.42 lb in weight to make both our large, 18" pie, and our house 20" pie.

Anne,

For the 18" size, that translates to a thickness factor of 22.72/(3.14159 x 9 x 9) = 0.089284. That is in the typical NY "street" style range. If the 20" is a round pizza, the corresponding thickness factor is 22.72/(3.14159 x 10 x 10) = 0.0723. That is closer to the "elite" NY style. I don't think that either value is keeping you from getting a chewier crust. However, reducing the fat content seems to be a logical next step, along with adjusting the total effective hydration, as scott123 earlier discussed. It will be interesting to see if the extensibility is materially increased. Sometimes that can pose a problem, especially if untrained workers are used to open up the dough balls.

Peter


Offline scott123

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Re: Getting more 'Chew'
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2011, 03:53:16 AM »
Anne, although I don't have the same kind of malice for Rotoflex ovens that I have for conveyors, I'm still a little wary of them. It seems like there's lots of folks that feel like they put out a comparable pie to deck ovens but I have my reservations.

History

Regardless of their age, decks are classic Americana, kind of like a 1960's Ford Mustang or Chevy Impala. These ovens have tremendous history. They put pizza on the map. Sure Naples had the idea, the spark, but it was New Yorkers, with deck ovens in their hands, that spread the glory of pizza to all parts of the globe. Being the somewhat stereotypical liberal give-peace-a-chance NYer that I am, I've found it difficult this last decade to be proud of my country.  When I walk into a pizzeria, though, and see the gleaming stainless steel of a deck oven, that's when I'm proudest to be an American. I don't know if Americans invented the deck, but what they've manage to achieve with it is up there with Alexander Graham Bell, Henry Ford, Thomas Edison and Nicholas Tesla. This country, with this oven, invented the, hands down, best food the world has ever seen. Your deck oven connects you with this incredibly proud history.

Commercialization

Even if the end product were virtually identical, I'd still have issues with the impersonal/mass produced feeling that these ovens emanate. We're not talking Chuck E. Cheese, but it's definitely a step in that direction.  The common denominator driving decisions to migrate to a Rotoflex seems not to be 'how can we make better pizza?' but 'how can we churn out more pies/make more money?' A deck oven is artisan.  Perhaps, not as artisan as a wood fired oven, but it's still more artisan than a Rotoflex.

Authenticity

This forum has an expert from Naples (Marco) who basically believes that if a pizza isn't baked in an oven built by one of a handful of prominent Neapolitan families, it doesn't qualify as Neapolitan pizza. I feel similarly about NY pies.  In a retail setting, if it isn't a deck oven, it ain't NY.

Convection vs. Radiance

My biggest issue with the Rotoflex is predominantly a spiritual one.  It just doesn't have the soul of a deck. Other than that, I've noticed a thermodynamic difference, that, for some, probably isn't earth shattering, but it's still worth pointing out. Rotoflexes have no top heating elements so the top of the pies are baked via convection not with radiant heat emanating from a broiler.  What's the difference? Well, circulating air (convection) will brown the top more evenly and dry the exterior to produce a crispier crust. Crispy crust fans might value this dynamic, but, for me, I've never seen a convection baked pie that looked right. It's just one homogenous golden brown mass.  Convection, imo, robs a pizza of it's character.


As I've mentioned before, I'm incredibly biased and protective when it comes to NY style pizza.  I'm not in your shoes.  Maybe a Rotoflex is the perfect fit for your establishment.  All that I ask is that you explore every angle before taking the plunge.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 05:21:42 AM by scott123 »

Offline scott123

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Re: Getting more 'Chew'
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2011, 05:10:57 AM »
Since my feelings on Rotoflex were somewhat lengthy, I thought they deserved a separate post.

Currently, I have no place of my own. I'm comfortable, right now, with the consulting that I'm doing, but hope to eventually have my own shop.  If I lived anywhere else in the U.S., I'd already have my own place, but, since I live in NY, I really have to choose my steps wisely since the competition is so fierce.

When you crank the ovens higher, how exactly are the calzones/strombolis burning?  Are the tops burning, the bottoms, or both? If the bottoms are burning, you could probably get around that with baking them on screens. If it's both, that gets a little trickier.

How much dough are using for the calzones/strombolis?  I've seen people using as much as 10 oz. of dough, but I think 6-7 oz. might be better in your setting.  What are you filling them with?  Calzones shouldn't contain any ingredients that need to be cooked/only warmed and strombolis should have thin layers of ingredients such as ham, pepperoni and cheese so the final product is relatively flat and the inner layers of dough don't take too long to bake.

All ovens have cool spots.  If you don't already own one, I'd get your hands on an infrared thermometer and map out the cooler parts of your oven. You might find a cool enough area that will work for calzones/strombolis.

Beyond slowing down the bottoms with small screens, you can add some time to the tops with some sort of cover.  I'm picturing something like an inverted disposable aluminum loaf pan.  The other advantage to this is that you'll get some steam at the beginning of the bake.

How predictable are your calzone/stromboli orders?  This is probably getting a little farfetched, but you might be able to make a special no sugar dough that has less propensity for browning that you use only for calzones/strombolis.

I think, at the end of the day, the most important aspect here is that your flagship product is your pizza.  I'm not saying you need to sell burnt calzones, but if you need to make them a little smaller than normal or give them some sort of special treatment in order to ensure a faster baked pie that's, imo, superior to what you're producing now AND meets your increasing demand, I think it's well worth it. Let's face it, you're a pizzeria, not a strombolaria  ;D

Offline AnnieK

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Re: Getting more 'Chew'
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2011, 01:40:08 PM »
Hi Scott-

That's an interesting thought on the ovens. I understand the concept of the 'soul' of the idea vs. capacity, I don't think that's abstract at all. It's a valid argument. It's the reason we make dough in house, don't use rollers or presses, and hand toss, etc. So that makes sense that we should consider that with how we bake them as well.
The reason we have been considering them is several-fold; We have limited kitchen space, so getting another full deck system just won't fit. We also live in a tourist town that has a crazy peak season, line out the door, standing room only crazy. It's a good problem to have as a business owner,  but currently we throw faster than our ovens can bake pies, so we end up standing there waiting for oven space (as customers begin looking up at the clock getting cranky that their dinner is taking an hour). It's sort of a catch 22. I absolutely will Never go with a conveyor system, so liked the idea that at least the rotoflex is still sort of a deck concept, but! I think I will also look into some other possibilities for sure. Seems worth it. I briefly checked the equipment forums here and will spend some real time on them over the next few weeks.

A thought on oven temps; I checked our oven temps, the Blodgetts can get up to 650. So one thought that I just had, since we have a separate double decker, is to keep the bottom oven at 500 for strombolis and calzones and sicilians (which we do enough of to warrant their own space) and turn up the top oven for pies. That could be a good test of decreasing bake times and the results of that.

And now: Dough results!

So, I went ahead and made a bunch of changes at once, nothing like just diving in :) It seemed like a good starting point which I could then work backward from.

Here's what I did;

14.5 Qt Water
.20 lb cake yeast (upped from .16 lb)
.80 lb Salt
.30 lb Sugar
.12 Garlic (flavor only)
Nixed the shortening
Stuck with 12oz Olive oil for testing purposes.
50 lb flour

Mixed 9 minutes, it was done by then. Same amount of time rising out vs. cold proofing.

Initial reaction; The dough seemed really soft and pliable while forming, more so than normal. It balled nicely, and held it's shape just fine while rising.

This morning I threw a pie with it and noticed these distinct changes;

1. The dough ball was stickier than I am used to, it even stuck some to the covering over the dough tray.

2. The dough was soft and pliable, but upon throwing seemed much less elastic than I am used to, I had to throw longer to get it to size.

3. it had noticeable air bubbles in the dough while I was throwing it. I am used to some bubbles, but this was waaaayyyy bubbly. It was also difficult to get even in thickness.

4. it held it's shape on the pizza board, and did not shrink, so that's normal behavior.

5. In the oven the dough produced some bubbles and was seeming to get a nice oven spring to it.

6. However! once out of the oven, it lost all that nice spring and the pie was much more flat than normal, it also did not brown as much.

7. The crust did not brown as much on the bottom and a slice from it did not hold it's shape nearly as well. I.e. during the 'hold it and fold it' test, it drooped from the middle of the slice forward, no bueno.

8. The taste though was Fantastic, the extra salt was great and really brought out the flavors of the dough and the garlic, taste was perfect for what i was looking for.

9. The edge of the crust that did hold it's form had better chew. I wouldn't call it 'chewy' by any means, but more than we are used to getting. Maybe a 4 on the chew scale.

Sooo... here's my thoughts for changes;

1. I am wondering if I over-hydrated the dough? Hence it being sticky and very soft. I am thinking I should try a test batch with 14 Qt water, half a quart less.

2. I did not up the oil content, and since I removed some of the fat by nixing the shortening, I am wondering if I should now try upping the oil content to help give some more elasticity. if I understand correctly this should help the gluten retain some of it's strength and might combat the lack of oven spring? Am I going in the right direction here?

3. And also, wondering about upping the sugar content a bit for browning purposes.

Also, I see that there are several dough calculators on this board, is there one in particular that you guys recommend using as a reference?

And also, this is directed at Scott (and I am sure others), I understand that you make your living by answering the sorts of questions posed on these boards that you are using valuable time answering for free....so, in short, thanks again.



Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Getting more 'Chew'
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2011, 03:05:57 PM »
Anne,

The dough calculating tool that I use the most is the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. It has the most ingredients, so I find it most useful for that reason. In fact, I used that tool to come up with my best estimate of your latest dough. It is:

All Trumps Flour (100%):
Water (58.9063%):
CY (0.40%):
Salt (1.6%):
Olive Oil (1.42857%):
Sugar (0.60%):
Garlic Powder (0.24%):
Total (163.17487%):
22680.02 g  |  800 oz | 50 lbs
13359.96 g  |  471.25 oz | 29.45 lbs
90.72 g | 3.2 oz | 0.2 lbs |
362.88 g | 12.8 oz | 0.8 lbs | 21.67 tbsp | 1.35 cups
324 g | 11.43 oz | 0.71 lbs | 24 tbsp | 1.5 cups
136.08 g | 4.8 oz | 0.3 lbs | 11.38 tbsp | 0.71 cups
54.43 g | 1.92 oz | 0.12 lbs | 20.4 tsp | 6.8 tbsp
37008.09 g | 1305.4 oz | 81.59 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

Since you have been working with scott123 on the dough formulation, I will stand aside. However, one thing you may want to revisit is the increase in the garlic powder. It is possible that by increasing the amount of garlic powder you may have inadvertently made the dough softer than you wanted to. It's hard to say because you made several other changes that may have been responsible for the increased softness of the dough. That is why it is generally best to make only one change at a time. However, if you want to read more on this subject, you might read Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9320.msg80647.html#msg80647 and Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9698.msg85561/topicseen.html#msg85561.

BTW, everyone who posts on this forum is doing it without pay. We are all volunteers.

Peter

Offline scott123

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Re: Getting more 'Chew'
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2011, 06:09:55 PM »
Anne, as much as I applaud your gung ho approach and your willingness to just go for it, as I said before, the hydration increase is going to be contingent on the oven temp. It's not really fair to judge the hydration increase without a corresponding bump in oven temp/decrease in bake time. Take that recipe, crank the oven to 550 and then see how it turns out.

More water is going to produce a dough that's going to handle differently.  There's just no way around it. 58% hydration with All Trumps is still a little dry and should still be manageable.  I don't think the dough is inherently unmanageable like a 65% or above dough, it's just different and may take a few throws to get used to.

All dough (including pizza) should be a little sticky/tacky.  It should require a light film of oil on the proofing container and a liberal sprinkle of flour when forming. I've worked with All Trumps with hydrations all the way up to 75%. Sure it gets sticky and really droopy when forming, but it's never been too wet to work with.  Rather than dialing the water back, see if you can get used to 58%.  It may not be quite as manageable as 54%, but it should still be fairly easy to work with. I'm curious, what kind of proofing pans are you using and how long are you allowing the dough to warm up prior to forming?

Additional sugar to encourage browning is probably a good idea, but let's wait on that.  Let's see how much browning you get at the higher temp. As far as the oil goes... try a lb.  It won't buy you any elasticity or chewiness, but it will help the dough brown and might make the dough a little less sticky.

Peter makes an excellent point about the garlic.  I didn't say anything because I didn't want to alter your current formula too dramatically, but garlic does weird things in dough. The NY tradition is garlic in the sauce and garlic powder as a condiment, but never garlic in the dough. If you want the garlic note with the bread, how about, rather than adding it to the dough, sprinkling on the rim before baking?  I get the feeling that messing with the garlic, in conjunction with the added chew, might be the straw that broke the camel's back and really push your fanbase into a tizzy, so maybe you should leave it alone, but I do think it's a good idea to stick with the quantity of garlic you were using before rather than increasing it.

Do you really sell enough calzones/strombolis to devote an entire tier to them? How about purchasing a smaller oven (perhaps a countertop version), dedicated entirely to calzones/strombolis?  If I'm hearing you correctly, it sounds like if you can crank both tiers to 550 and reduce your bake time to less than 5 minutes, you might be able to keep up with the demand.  If you could sell your customers on the idea of a superior (yet different/less evenly browned) 4 minute pie, then I think you could really churn out a lot pizzas with your existing setup.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 06:12:22 PM by scott123 »

Offline AnnieK

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Re: Getting more 'Chew'
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2011, 11:45:53 AM »
Hi Peter and Scott

Interesting about the garlic, thanks for sending those links. It seems like such a tiny amount, I didn't realize it could have that effect. I'm of the mindset to force garlic upon everybody with everything....you ordered a large soda? here, have some garlic with it....so this test batch I will bring it back to normal and tone it down a bit.

The results I wrote about were from a saturday morning trial of the dough, interestingly, by the time I started really getting into the batch by saturday night, it was giving some more oven spring. It was almost as if it needed more time to rise and develop, which would be a full 24 hrs of rise before using. So this to me possibly points to needing to up the sugar content just a bit to develop the yeast more/faster. That plus some more olive oil for pliability.

I guess after 5 years of using our recipe, I'm so used to dry dough that the concept of wetter, stickier dough seemed wrong. It's good to know that is normal for dough with a higher moisture content and that I am on the right track. The taste and chew by saturday night were perfect! so it seems like the next step involves smaller tweaks.

I am going to do another test batch, and crank up those ovens and monitor some bake times. Surprisingly enough, we do sell enough strombolis and calzones to warrant and entire oven level on busy nights. But if I can get my pies out faster up top that could help solve the back-up.

I'll let you guys know how it goes!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Getting more 'Chew'
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2011, 01:26:35 PM »
Anne,

I can't say that I was surprised that you would react to the higher hydration. I actually expected it, given that your hydration was so low. After doing something for five years, I can see how there might be a tendency to view what you have been doing as "right" and that anything else is wrong or at least suspect. I'm sure that at some point you will find the sweet spot on the hydration.

I also wanted to mention a couple other subsidiary items. The first is the matter of the shortening. Apart from the fact that you are not likely to find many pizza operators who specialize in the NY style using shortening, it doesn't really bring much to the party. Shortening is basically flavorless, unless you use a butter-flavored variety, and most shortenings include some saturated fat and trans fats (you will see reference to partially hydrogenated oils). Food producers all around the world are under a lot of pressure to get rid of trans fat especially. So, in you case, if you switch to oil, you end up with a "clean and green" label. You might even be able to advertise that no trans fats are used to make your pizza dough. Apart from the trans fat issue, you might want to read the following posts/threads from the PMQ Think Tank to get some insight on other aspects of shortening: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6110&p=38321&hilit=#p38155;  http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6371&p=40596&hilit=#p40596 (if you are interested in the dough management procedure mentioned in that post, see Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7953.msg68396/topicseen.html#msg68396); and http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1325&hilit

The second point is that you might want to register and post questions on the business side of your operation at the PMQ Think Tank forum at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewforum.php?f=6. That is a forum where professional pizza operators visit. That forum has been having problems for quite a while now, and participation is way down, but I mention it because there is a member on that forum, who goes by the handle bodegahwy, who operates out of a ski area in Colorado and knows that market inside and out. He is also an active participant on that forum. I think he is one of the smartest and most knowledgeable members there (he is also very savvy on real estate matters). So, if you have problems or are looking for help on the business side of things, especially in a ski area, you might want to become familiar with that forum and bodegahwy's posts. That forum also has a private messaging system and there is an archive that can be searched. The other member of that forum who knows the dough side of the business is Tom Lehmann, whose posts I referenced above. Tom is with the American Institute of Baking and an expert on pizza. Many members specifically target their questions to Tom to catch his eye, since he is not always active on the forum because of competing duties.

Peter

Offline scott123

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Re: Getting more 'Chew'
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2011, 02:27:10 PM »
Anne, more sugar won't necessarily give you more yeast activity.  Within the first 24 hours of cold fermented doughs, the yeast has plenty of nutrients to do it's thing.  Extra sugar will just remain in the dough and give you additional browning (and a slightly more tender crumb). If you need to speed up the fermentation clock, I'd either

1. Use more yeast
2. Use warmer water
3. Ferment at a higher temp

Tweaking water temp is popular for commercial pizzerias, but since you've already just modified your yeast quantity, I would just go ahead an increase the yeast once more.  .24 lb. sounds like a better target. Out of all the changes you've made, the doubling of the salt is the most dramatic- it's going to take some trial and error tweaking the yeast quantities in order to compensate for that.

One thing to bear in mind, is that, generally speaking, 24 hour doughs, with less yeast, taste better than 8 hour doughs, with more yeast. The longer cold ferment allows more flavor to develop. Do you have the walk-in space to ferment all your dough for 24 hours? If you do, that's going to be a superior tasting crust. If not, it's not a huge deal- Same day ferments are very common in the industry.

The fact that the 24 hour ferment gave you more chew leads me to believe that, should you go with a 8 hour ferment, you might benefit from a slightly longer knead. Maybe.  Like the sugar, though, I'd hold off on that until a future test.

Just so you're not dealing with quite so many variables, I'd break this up in two phases:

Phase 1
Oven temp to 525
Olive oil to 1 lb.
Yeast to .24 lb. (or leave it where it is and stay with the 24 hour fermentation)
Return to .08 lb. garlic powder

Phase 2
Oven temp to 550
Sugar to 1% (.5 lb)
12 minutes total mix time (with an 8 hour ferment)

You may not need phase 2 at all, but should you want to add sugar or increase the mix time, I'd do it on down the line rather than now. The sugar will mostly be contingent on the level of browning you get with the faster bake time. And, although I think 550 will be the magic number, better to get there with baby steps rather than potentially burn pies.