Author Topic: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated  (Read 10560 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2011, 12:48:59 AM »
So both starters have been sitting in the fridge for a week now side by side.   I took them out and let them come up to room temp., discarded, refed, and made bread.

Today, I wanted to make 2 loaves of bread, one with the IDY starter contaminated with ischia (IDY/ischia hybrid starter) from last week and another with the ischia starter.   I did this bake b/c I wanted to see if there would be a difference in sourdough taste in the end product and just how different they would be.  My hypothesis at this point is that the ischia starter loaf would have a much more sour taste than the hybrid starter if given a long fermentation period. 

I started mixing both batches of dough at 1230pm.  Both loaves used the same formula except the starters.   These loaves were made with AT's HG flour.  Both mixed by hand one right after the other, both allowed to autolyse for the same time frame, hand turns were done every 30m one after the other taking care not to contaminate the 2 doughs. 

Both loaves were baked side by side at 8pm so total fermentation time was 7.5hrs.   Both baked up to about the same size.

Pic #1 hybrid starter on left, ischia on right.  Hybrid starter seems to display more leavening strength. 
Pic#2 both loaves pre-proofed. 
pic#3 loaves baking
Pic#4 finished loaves
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 01:45:04 AM by Jackie Tran »


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2011, 12:59:20 AM »
And for the finished loaves.   I was pleasantly surprise that both loaves were not that sour despite using 20% starter and fermenting for 7.5 hours at a room temp of 75F.  The ischia loaf did have a bit more sourdough flavor but it was not as much of a difference as I had thought there would be.  This is possibly due to the fact that I had dumped about 75% of it and refed prior to using it.  In essence I think I created more of a young starter.   On a sour scale of 1-10, 10 being extremely sour,  I would rate the hybrid starter loaf at a 3 and the ischia at about a 5. 

So my results were not what I was expecting BUT I was extremely pleased with the outcome.   1) I no longer need the hybrid starter as I can likely control the intensity of the ischia starter relative to how much I discard prior to feeding.  And 2) I was able to finally make a holier than thou bread with just a touch of tang. 

Pics #1 & #2 are the hybrid loaf.  #3 & #4 are of the ischia loaf.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 01:29:34 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2011, 02:45:40 PM »
Good Lord. I am just floored by your results. I don't think that your crumb could be any more picture perfect.

John

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2011, 09:07:25 PM »
Thanks John.  I guess there are only a few of us who can appreciate a holey bread.   :-D :angel:  TBH, I was a bit surprise to see them myself.  My intention for this experiment was to just compare the 2 starters.  I cut the first loaf open and thought.....holy crap!  TARTINE!!  :-D

I'll see about reproducing the results with slightly smaller holes soon.

Chau
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 10:44:27 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline malvanova

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2011, 12:42:10 PM »
very nice loaves JT   good experiment.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2011, 10:16:45 PM »
Good grief, Chau. What did you put in that bread?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 10:21:42 PM by TXCraig1 »
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2011, 10:30:35 PM »
Thanks malvanova!

Craig, that crumb still haunts me.  :-D
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 10:36:29 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2011, 11:50:16 PM »
use that mutant turbo starter to make some tartine bread  :chef:
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2011, 12:05:31 AM »
use that mutant turbo starter to make some tartine bread  :chef:

Jon, these are tartine loaves.  They are made with 20% young starter.  Hand turns were done every 30min for 3 hours.  Preshaped and shaped just as Chad does in the book.   The only thing I didn't do is post them up in the tartine bread thread.   :P  Oh yeah, I also left out the whole wheat.  But the next loaves I do, I'll try with 30% WW.

Chau

Offline norma427

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2011, 07:27:29 AM »
Chau,

Your Tartine Breads sure has great crumb structure!   ;D  Great job!

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2011, 08:38:03 AM »
Chau (or anyone else),

I'm not used to seeing breads with such an open structure. What are some of the uses for such a bread? I can see that it would make for a good general eating bread and sopping things up with it, but can it be used to make sandwiches or will the fillings, especially any liquidy components, drip through the holes onto your lap?

Peter

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2011, 09:03:31 AM »
I'm with you, Peter. I try for a slightly more closed crumb with a more even distribution of medium and small holes.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2011, 09:35:44 AM »
Thanks Norma.   :D

Peter & Bill - this experimental bread I made doesn't really fit neatly into any particulary category of bread.  I used the Tartine methods with some modifications.  Chad's loaves have much more medium size holes and much less of the big giant holes.  This crumb resembles more of a ciabatta type crumb but the height of the loaf is obviously too high for a ciabatta bread.   Ciabatta breads can be used for sandwiches but of course it's sliced lengthwise.  I think you are right in that it is more of a general eating bread for sopping up soups and what not.  Of course you can't slather a slice of this type of bread with mustard or mayo.  It would make for a messy experience.  :-D

I was happy to have achieved the big size holes b/c I hadn't done it before and I like to learn about the extremes.  I like to learn how to achieve different looking crumbs and learn how to manipulate the variables that causes the different outcomes.   For me, it's all part of learning about dough management, gluten development, fermentation, and baking.  All for the purpose of making a better pizza.   Yes - what can I learn here that would help me make a better pizza crust?


Bill, I plan on trying to decrease the the sizes of the holes when I make this bread again.  Again, not necessarily b/c it's my favorite kind of eating bread, but just so I know I understand what is happening with the dough.  In the long run, these types of experiments are for the purpose of further my pizza dough and crumb.  This particular crumb would be better served as a pizza crust. 

Incidentally one of my favorite types of breads is the very opposite of the above.  It is similar to a commercially made baguette.   It has an ultra soft tight celled crumb with a very thin crust that shatters after it is retoasted.   I have been trying with little success.

If anyone can help me in anyway, I would be most grateful. 

Chau
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 10:09:37 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2011, 10:51:05 AM »
Chau (or anyone else),

I'm not used to seeing breads with such an open structure. What are some of the uses for such a bread? I can see that it would make for a good general eating bread and sopping things up with it, but can it be used to make sandwiches or will the fillings, especially any liquidy components, drip through the holes onto your lap?

Peter

Isn't that one of the great things about breads though? They are so inexpensive and so versitle that there is no reason not to have breads with very specialized purposes. I look at Chau's bread, and I just want to sop things up with it. One glance and it triggers the memory of the syrupy reduction from the oxtail I braised last week.

Craig
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2011, 10:52:53 AM »
The one with the ghost in it is a little disturbing though... :-D
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2011, 09:06:02 AM »
For the sake of the viewing audience, I decided to try and decrease the scary factor and make a bread with more medium and smaller size holes. 

This is a 70/30 caputo 00/WW loaf.  I used 20% of the hybrid starter, a 71% HR.  It was late so I cold fermented the dough over night, and continued with the hand turns in the morning.

The loaf turned out well, but I am decidely not a WW kind of guy.  :-X


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2011, 09:10:29 AM »
That's right up there with some of the finest crumbs I've EVER seen.

I'm with you on the WW.

Craig
Pizza is not bread.

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2011, 09:13:51 AM »
Masterful, Chau.

John

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2011, 09:44:18 PM »
Wow, thank you guys!  I'm really just trying different things and trying to make sense of it all. 


Chau

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2011, 07:07:06 AM »
Chau - Would you mind describing your shaping technique and proofing vessel? Your loaves have that beautiful, graceful, wide score that Chad gets in Tartine loaves and is shaped almost the same as well. Chad does some advanced folding - like stitching almost - and then gently rolls the ball onto itself. He then places it into a long banneton with that seam sideways. Any insight appreciated - understanding that the solution may really be just how well you can develop tension and a perfect proof.

Look at the sequence starting at 5:51:



John