Experiment to see if Starters can be contaminated

[Jackie Tran]

Thank you John.   Sometimes I wonder just how many members are paying attention and giving thought to the minor/major details like score marks relative to hydration ratios, shape of the overal loaf and what it tells us about surface tension, the relative distribution, size & shape, and location of bubbles.   I think if we look at and study these things they can tell the whole story of how the loaf was made.   


I'll have a look at the video and see if I can come up with a decent answer for you. 

Chau

 

[Jackie Tran]

Chau - Would you mind describing your shaping technique and proofing vessel? Your loaves have that beautiful, graceful, wide score that Chad gets in Tartine loaves and is shaped almost the same as well. Chad does some advanced folding - like stitching almost - and then gently rolls the ball onto itself. He then places it into a long banneton with that seam sideways. Any insight appreciated - understanding that the solution may really be just how well you can develop tension and a perfect proof.

Look at the sequence starting at 5:51:

http://vimeo.com/14354661

John

John - this video is absolutely fustrating to watch.  I have now watched it at least a dozen times and have only seen that "stitching" technique once and partially a 2nd time.  The pictures don't seem to match up with the narrative for me.   

At any rate, I'm guessing that stitching technique is likely just some fancy hand work.  If you notice he stretches the dough over the top and tucks it under after the stitching.  That builds the proper tension.  To get the WIDE split, that is a function of tension on the skin.  More tension equals a bigger split provided the dough is fermented to the same degree before baking.  Meaning it still has potential in the oven to spring.   If it's overfermented and there isn't a lot of room left for oven spring, then extra tension won't give us that wide split. 

I do the same folding techniques as Chad shows in the book including that last fold over and tuck underneath... however, I have been proofing seam side down on the work bench without the use of a proofing tray.   I started playing around with this technique after some conversations with member Bobino.   Here is something interesting about proofing seam side down.  If the loaf is allowed to proof out well, the distribution of large bubbles is more on the top/periphery of the cross section.  You can see this in the first 2 loaves posted.  This is part of what I was referring to about a loaf "telling" it's story.  The nice thing about proofing seem side down is that you can monitor the surface tension.   About 30m or so before baking you can retuck the sides and reshape the loaf if you want to refresh that surface tension.   This method is a bit of a cheat as it is easier to get the desire surface tension prior to the bake compare to proofing seam side up.  Seems to serve me better since I'm always switching ingredients and variables up and experimenting.  It's at least one thing I can control consistently. 

If you proof seam side up as Chad does, you have to build the right tension from the get go and not overferment or else the dough softens and that surface tension is lost.  Notice how the loaf can flatten after you turn it out from a proofing tray?  We can control that through gluten strength and tension in the dough prior to proofing.  You can retuck prior to baking but that shows up as ridges along the bottom of the loaf.   This technique is easier done in a commercial setting b/c for the most part, not much is changing in the workflow day in and day out. 

Hope that helps.
Chau

[dellavecchia]

John - this video is absolutely fustrating to watch.  I have now watched it at least a dozen times and have only seen that "stitching" technique once and partially a 2nd time.  The pictures don't seem to match up with the narrative for me.   

At any rate, I'm guessing that stitching technique is likely just some fancy hand work.  If you notice he stretches the dough over the top and tucks it under after the stitching.  That builds the proper tension.  To get the WIDE split, that is a function of tension on the skin.  More tension equals a bigger split provided the dough is fermented to the same degree before baking.  Meaning it still has potential in the oven to spring.   If it's overfermented and there isn't a lot of room left for oven spring, then extra tension won't give us that wide split. 

I do the same folding techniques as Chad shows in the book including that last fold over and tuck underneath... however, I have been proofing seam side down on the work bench without the use of a proofing tray.   I started playing around with this technique after some conversations with member Bobino.   Here is something interesting about proofing seam side down.  If the loaf is allowed to proof out well, the distribution of large bubbles is more on the top/periphery of the cross section.  You can see this in the first 2 loaves posted.  This is part of what I was referring to about a loaf "telling" it's story.  The nice thing about proofing seem side down is that you can monitor the surface tension.   About 30m or so before baking you can retuck the sides and reshape the loaf if you want to refresh that surface tension.   This method is a bit of a cheat as it is easier to get the desire surface tension prior to the bake compare to proofing seam side up.  Seems to serve me better since I'm always switching ingredients and variables up and experimenting.  It's at least one thing I can control consistently. 

If you proof seam side up as Chad does, you have to build the right tension from the get go and not overferment or else the dough softens and that surface tension is lost.  Notice how the loaf can flatten after you turn it out from a proofing tray?  We can control that through gluten strength and tension in the dough prior to proofing.  You can retuck prior to baking but that shows up as ridges along the bottom of the loaf.   This technique is easier done in a commercial setting b/c for the most part, not much is changing in the workflow day in and day out. 

Hope that helps.
Chau

VERY helpful. What a great technique, proofing seam side down outside of a basket. I look forward to trying it out next weekend. Many thanks.

John

[Jackie Tran]

Well, just a quick update.   I've been using this hybrid starter for over a month now it seems to be giving the same results as it did initially.   Even when doughs are allowed to ferment out well, the ischia flavor is very mild, not what I would expect at all.   So it's telling me that 1) the ischia culture has not taken over the IDY culture, 2) the IDY culture has not diluted out the small amount of ischia culture, and 3) the 2 are likely co-habitating. 

I decided to take both ischia and hybrid starters out today and will try to allow a small sample of each to really overferment to the point of collapse.   I'll then taste each raw starter to see if the hybrid starter still exhibits less sourness. 

For yet another starter experiment, has anyone made a cake yeast starter?   I decided to start a CY starter today.   My motivation in having a CY starter is to be able to take advantage of the "extra" leavening effects that CY supposedly offers while still maintaining the ability to get more consistent results from the starter form factor rather than having to wonder if my CY is getting past it's prime.  Also I just hate tossing out CY eventhough it's dirt cheap.   

Of course there is the possibility that it could or would eventually be contaminated by some local yeast strains, but I'm confident that I would be able to detect when that happens if I use this on a semi-regular basis.  Any thoughts and ideas are appreciated. 

Chau

[msheetrit]

chau,
are you still using the hybrid starters ? and does it still sourless taste?

[Jackie Tran]

chau,
are you still using the hybrid starters ? and does it still sourless taste?

Yes I am.  Currently it's my favorite starter to use for bread.  I'm going back to IDY for pizza at the moment.   Especially if I use the hybrid starter at a young stage, even at full fermentation there is very little acids.   A definite very light tang/SD taste but not strong at all compared to the regular ischia starter.   

Chau

[plainslicer]

Chau,

For your pure CY starter, do you add any yeast when you feed it? The reason I ask is that I tried something similar but it ended up smelling like sourdough after about a week at room temperature. I was only feeding it flour and water, like I had when I tried to get a SD starter going.

[Jackie Tran]

Chau,

For your pure CY starter, do you add any yeast when you feed it? The reason I ask is that I tried something similar but it ended up smelling like sourdough after about a week at room temperature. I was only feeding it flour and water, like I had when I tried to get a SD starter going.

No I don't add any yeast.  The only yeast in it right now is the CY I added in originally.   Once it's active and I use the starter, I will refeed with 50/50 AP flour and water and back into the fridge it goes to ferment slowly until it's next use.   When I make bread with it and allow the bread to really ferment out well, I get zero sourness/tang unlike the hybrid or ischia starter.   It will be interesting to see how long I can keep the CY starter pure before it becomes contaminated with yeast from the flour I'm using to feed it.

Chau

[msheetrit]

so if i understand correct the hybrid starters after 2,3 months still had no sour taste?...
if thats the case that is my next project.

[Jackie Tran]

so if i understand correct the hybrid starters after 2,3 months still had no sour taste?...
if thats the case that is my next project.

No Michael.  The hybrid starter is made with IDY and a tablespoon of ischia starter.  At full fermentation there is a little tang or sourness to it but not as much as a strong ischia starter.    If you want zero sourness, you need to make a (pure) IDY or CY starter or poolish.   

Make a mixture of 50/50 flour and water, and add 1/2 tsp or so of ADY or IDY.  When it becomes active and passes the float test or the dome receeds a bit in the middle it is ready.  Taste the raw poolish and there should be zero sourness to it.   Use this poolish in your bread or pizza and you should have zero sourness.

Hope that makes sense.

Chau

[msheetrit]

do you mean to do the polish and then feed it and refridgrated like regular starters ?

[Jackie Tran]

Yes.  Just like a starter...but with Idy/ady    just use enough so its ready in 6-8 hours.

Chau

[norma427]

Chau,

I never tried an experiment with only using CY in a starter and seeing how long that could last by feeding it flour, but have tried my preferment Lehmann dough poolish (with IDY) in different experiments, when I didn’t use it at market.  I left the poolish out at room temperature after it was cold fermented for a number of days old and did also give some of the poolish a little bit of IDY to see what would happen when using it in experiments.  If you want to see where I did those experiments, I can provide the link.  I didn’t keep up with that experiment, but also noticed that there was no sourness in the final taste of the pizzas made with that poolish after a number of days.  I left the poolish at room temperature.

Will be interested in seeing how your experiments progress.  

Norma

[msheetrit]

yes i am interested  to see norma.

i have to try this starters chau its making so curious just to think about it.

i think 150 gram flour/ and 150 gram water with 1/2 tsp idy will be ready in oven heated for 1 minute in 6 -7 hours.

[Jackie Tran]

Norma - thank you for telling me about your results.   If you don't mind posting the links, I think there are plenty of members who are interested in your experiments as well.   

What I would be curious to know is how long can someone keep an IDY or CY starter/poolish pure at room temps without contamination from airborne yeast or yeast from the flour.    I think I will start this experiment to see.  It should be fairly obvious if I taste the raw starter daily to see if any new flavors have been introduced.  I would think that I could distinguish even a slight change after daily taste testing.

Michael - I think that you may have gotten sourdough shy from the SD starter you have created.   My suggestion would be to make an ADY or IDY poolish, then starter.  Then bake a loaf of bread and see if you like the flavor.   Then divide that starter into 2 separate jars.   In one of them, feed and allow the starter to get 50% active or so and then mix into it a tablespoon of your natural yeast starter you made awhile back.   Once this new hybrid starter gets fully active, you can discard 1/2 and refeed and use it as your new hybrid starter.   

Hopefully you should find that the bread it makes will not be as sour as the bread made with the original yeasted starter.  Good luck and do post results if you decide to try this.

Chau

[norma427]

Chau,  

Thanks for telling me I could put the links to my experiments that I didn’t complete on your thread.  I also would be curious to know how long someone can keep an IDY or CY starter/poolish pure at room temperature without contamination from airborne yeast or yeast from flour.  I would be interested if you start those experiments to see what happens.    I am always interested in the experiments you do.  

Norma

Michael,

I don’t want to clog up Chau’s experiments too much on his thread, but this is where I started with using the leftover IDY poolish in a number of experiments.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg123141.html#msg123141 and the following posts starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg123166.html#msg123166 and where I posted about if anyone had kept IDY poolish going without adding extra flour and being able to make a successful pizza.  Another link http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg123330.html#msg123330
Some of the things I posted about that I learned from those experiments. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg123366.html#msg123366    

Norma

[msheetrit]

Michael - I think that you may have gotten sourdough shy from the SD starter you have created.   My suggestion would be to make an ADY or IDY poolish, then starter.  Then bake a loaf of bread and see if you like the flavor.   Then divide that starter into 2 separate jars.   In one of them, feed and allow the starter to get 50% active or so and then mix into it a tablespoon of your natural yeast starter you made awhile back.   Once this new hybrid starter gets fully active, you can discard 1/2 and refeed and use it as your new hybrid starter.  

Hopefully you should find that the bread it makes will not be as sour as the bread made with the original yeasted starter.  Good luck and do post results if you decide to try this.

Chau

you suggest to make 2, one hybrid and one with my starters (that i just fed today after more then a week or so).
but i am positive that this one will give sour result and i am realy dont like the sour taste. i was happy to hear from you that i can get sourless starters with no starters inside - hybrid starters.
but you  already know i will try to make those 2, which means that if i do that i will have in my fridge 4 jars of starters.
those 2 and the other 2 i made about 2 months ago that i feed with ap and the other one with bf.
but i am preaty sure i am going to dump those first one and stay with the hybrid and the other one with tbs of my starters.
i realy dont like the sour taste. (have i said it before)

[msheetrit]

norma thank you for posting that.
experiments are good as for learning all the time and that what we seek (that and eating a good pie now and then).
i have noticed that you wrote here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg123366.html#msg123366
 that you used Farine Ganoro flour, what a coincidence i just made batch with 30/70 this flour and bf i will see tomarrow the result.
how was the pizza with it norma ?

here is the link with flour kind i bought http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13217.msg130259.html#msg130259

[Jackie Tran]

Michael I am suggesting you make 2 new starters.   The first one will be an IDY or ADY starter.    Once that is established, divide it in 2.   Take 1 and add a tablespoon of your old starter.

This will give you 2 starters.  The first will be flavorless, so you will only taste the flour or plain bread flavor.   The 2nd one or the HYBRID (idy or ady Plus old starter) should give a very mild sourdough flavor.  It should not be sour but rather give you more flavor than the first.   Make sense?

Also before you toss your other starters (that you worked so hard to start), I would recommend drying some out and storing it for future use.

Good luck,
Chau

[msheetrit]

thank you.
i will that and post, it will about a week but i will update.