creating my staters first time

[msheetrit]

my wife always said to me when i bake pizzas to stop open the oven door, i also seat on the floor in front of the oven and Stare inside and my camera filled with flour

i hope this will come true i want to learn everythink about it i want to try with raisens, i want to make bread with sourdough but i want to take it one step at a time and to fuuly understand the whole procces.

[plainslicer]

Michael,

This series on Slice and its comments are quite helpful:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/sourdough/?ref=skybox3

What I like about that method is you end up wasting less than some of the others I've seen. Flour isn't very expensive, but it's always nice to use less when you can. Also, the day-by-day progress should give you some idea of what yours should look like.

I should note I have had little success with sourdough myself except for a whole-wheat starter I made with the pineapple juice method. Every white starter I try ends up smelling really acidic/astringent a few days after what I assume is the correct smell appears.

[msheetrit]

it looks very serius thank you very much plainslicer for posting it. i will read it now.
so far for starters i started with this thread i fed them one hour ago and 13 hours ago, its day 6 and the smell is bad. but i dont know what is the right smell but lets say is i should taste it now i would never would have done it, scary.
about the other starters the ones i started yesterday night with the lomon juice am i am waiting. we will see what will happen.
i must say i am enjoying my self very much now, this is what i have wanted to learn as much as possible and to experiance with starters. 
i also saw what chau talked about on breadtopia with the pineapple juice method, is it the same method that you use?
it looks very promising, is it ok to use juice from a cann?

[msheetrit]

day 7 for starter 1- theres sour smell and its thick but i dont see any activity i stirred them about 5 times a day and feed them 12 hours. see photo 1below

day 2 for starter 2 with the lemon juice, there are tiny bubbles also been fed every 12 hours with same amount flour and water and stirred. see photo 2

i think i might made it the wrong way since i have between every thing close the lid tightly on them 

[msheetrit]

plainslicer thank you very much for posting thr article thats on slice how to grow starters.
thats just what i have been searching for a week.
i plan to grow new ones acorrding to this, it realy shows what to do every step of the way, i have learned a lot from it.

chickenparm if yoy read this you will get every confidence that you need start growing one.
i know, because now i have to start from the begining as it should be. 

i am not abandoning the 2 other ones beacuse the first one might burst and start althogh i doubt it.
and second one using the method that chau recomnded is just on day 2.
the idea is to learn a long the way and part of that is to experiament smell and changes in them.
i just hope i dont cause small explotion in our kitchen. 

[msheetrit]

i couldent helped my self and i am so excited after reading that i had to start another one using this method that is so detailed.
so i took a jar poured into it boiled water to Sterlized it and make clean room for the new residents and their children
so every is ready and off we go with every thing we need> scale, clean glass can see through jar, mineral water (tap water in israel have chlorine and i dont want to wait another day and let seat), ap white flour and thats it.
puting in the jar 0.5 oz flour with 1 oz water (room temp)
mixed toghert until the flour melted into the water and there are no lumps.
covered it with plastic wrap and placed it to seat.

so now i have 3 types in experimenting. i have a good feeling about the last tow.

[Jackie Tran]

Michael, the method plainslicer linked to is very similar to the one I outlined for you.  When I first made my starters, I googled and read about many methods, combined them and came up with the one I gave you.   I had no pineapple juice at the time and substituted lemon juice.  I figured it was the citric acid that is the key element and the starters I made with lemon juice all worked fine.

I would keep feeding your 1st one out to 10 or 11 days just to see if it may take off.  At this point I don't have high hopes for it but you never know.

The 2nd one you made with the lemon juice should be fine.  And the third one should work as well.   Sterilizing the jar is not required.  It makes you feel better and more like a scientist but doesn't do much.  Flour and water is not sterile.  The world we live in is filled with bacteria.  I can guarantee you the jar becomes UNsterile within minutes of being sterilized.  The citric acid in the pineapple/lemon juice is much more important IMO. 

Good luck and keep us posted. 

Chau

[msheetrit]

thank you tran i am realy counting on the method you have outlined for me, i think it will take no longer then 4,5 days for them to start activate.

about the boiled water it make sence but this jar had smell of pickles from the last residents.

chau thank you very much for all your help, you've helped a lot, i wonder how meny hours a day (and night) you spend here in the forum.

[Jackie Tran]

Michael you are most welcome.  I will help anyone out where I can.  I know what works and what doesn't but I don't always fully know or understand the "how's" and "why's". 

No problem with boiling the jar or sterilizing it.  I just wanted to give my opinion is all.  Even though I don't always know the how's and why's, we should strive to understand why we do certain things and what effect it has on the outcome rather just blindly following recipes all the time.  It's ok to use the recipes as a starting point or as a guideline, but we should strive to grow beyond that on our own.

I think you will see that there isn't too much mystery to starters.  They are rather easy to make, use, and maintain.  There are certainly many members on the forum who have been using starters longer than I've been making pizza and can help. 

Also I forgot, don't taste the starter now.  Wait until it gets active first (lots of bubbles). 

It will be fun for you to see the differences in your pizza and bread with using a starter.  I wish you all the luck and don't worry, you'll have a useable starter in a very short time.  You have at least 2 good ones in progress.  It usually takes me about 6 days to get a useable starter at a room temp of 75F.  Maybe a day faster if the temp is 85F or so.   

As far as how much time I spend on here, it is too much.   

Chau

[msheetrit]

so after writing aprrox 10 rows and erase them by mistake i am writing this again hopefuly remebreing everything from before .
the reason i am so fascinated with the whole idea of sourdough is because as you know chau i dident know what it is 2 weeks ago. 
and it took me 3 days just to understand the general idea.
and it turns out that they are here thousands of years and that is the basic and oldest method of making bread.
and i havent knew that.
probably i tasted sour dough bread before but i dident know that! and now i see that the internet is all over it, and that theres sourdough here in israel also but not many poeple know that, or giving attention to it they just eating their bread.
today i spoke with my father on the phone he is 81 years old and he is from marroco origanly, he said that he's mother used to make sourdough bread also with olives, meat and so... that was the best bread in the world he said, you can eat the bread after a week and that it had tasted fresh just like the first day. they had oven made from stones with fire coming from the bottem or somthing, and that they were making yeast (probably starters) from pomegranate.
i bought today at the bakry sourdough bread they had litel bit from it apparently not a lot of folks buy this bread, but
probably in tel aviv more theres a person called erez who has a chain of bakerys calles erez bread who brought the sourdough and special bread to israel over the 80's and opened the door for it. 
the bread tasted great but i think its not with starters i read a litel today about biga and i think it is with biga or from un mature starters. as you can it doesent have holes

[msheetrit]

its 4am here in israel, just fed the first 2 after 14 hours. and gave them a rough stirr, i noticed before that every time there liquid on top is it normal?
dident touched the third one just like the recipe on slice.

[Jackie Tran]

Michael, I think it is normal.  I would just pour out the liquid and continue to feed as planned. 

Chau

[chickenparm]

You guys are making me want to try this out soon...and Im sure I will!
 

That said,how much starter do you add to your dough mix when making new dough?

Is the flavor a night and day difference over an IDY or ADY dough that fermented for an entire day or cold rise 2-3 days in the fridge?Whats the best way to use this stuff? Cold rise or room rise?

Will NY style doughs benefit from starters or are they ideal for higher temp ovens an neo style pies?

I have read alot about starters,but still unsure about the exact applications on how to use it best.
 

[StrayBullet]

You guys are making me want to try this out soon...and Im sure I will!
 

That said,how much starter do you add to your dough mix when making new dough?

I've seen anywhere from 5% to 30% Total Flour....depends on your available ferment time and more specifically the fermentation temps!

Is the flavor a night and day difference over an IDY or ADY dough that fermented for an entire day or cold rise 2-3 days in the fridge?

Depends on the Starter used...I know I can dicern a difference between my Ischia (thanks Norma) starter and the one I created from a dough given to me by a local pizza shop.

Whats the best way to use this stuff? Cold rise or room rise?

I've found that a rise for 12 hours at 60-65^o to be optimum, followed by 2-4 hours at room temp, that being from 72-78^o....

Will NY style doughs benefit from starters or are they ideal for higher temp ovens an neo style pies?

I've been making what I consider some of the best crusts of my pizza making life using an 11 year-old oven, a 1.25" soapstone and no oven tricks.  Not trying to be coy, but definitions aside, it's all a matter of taste.  I dabble in poker and playing styles are very much a matter of personality.  Regardless, the best make what works for them, work for them.

That said, I think most people would say that the addition of a "starter" to a "NY pie" would change your product...you wouldn't have a "NY pie" any longer.  I'm not quite sure how I'd classify what I'm currently making but it isn't NY and it isn't Neapolitan....guess it's Neo Neo   So to answer your question, yes...I think it could benefit

I have read alot about starters,but still unsure about the exact applications on how to use it best. 

At some point you just have to dive in, that's what I did.  This is one of those things you have to see and feel for yourself.  There's only so much reading can do for you.  This is a living, growing being that you have you nurture and feed at least weekly but the payoffs in my opinion are immense...that is, depending on your end goals.

I'm not that type of person that defines pizza...if I'm in Chicago, can I enjoy a deep-dish pie?  Of course?  When I'm in CA, do I dabble in a supple dough seafood pie, you betcha!  When in St Louis I even enjoy cheeses beyond mozzarella...if you ask me to make a pie, I'm making what I like and for me, that includes a starter and cool temp ferments

Mark

[Jackie Tran]

Mark, that crust and crumb looks great.  Your pizzas are looking better all the time.   You are really finding that pizza "zone" which is not the same as PH's P'zone.    Just curious, did that crust have oil in the formulation? Looks like it does. 

Chau

[StrayBullet]

Thanks....I shot pics because I had to show off, this crust has really been amazing!!!

No oil at all....this is the same formula that I've produced for last 4 weeks in a row using your guidelines in the "Can bread make good pizza?" thread

66% water, 2.5% salt, 25% starter, .25% IDY

[norma427]

Mark,

I agree with Chau, your pizza does look amazing! 

Great job.

Norma

[StrayBullet]

Thanks Norma!!!

I've had tons of help here, a lot from you, and without it all I wouldn't have been able to turn out these pies

Mark

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks....I shot pics because I had to show off, this crust has really been amazing!!!

No oil at all....this is the same formula that I've produced for last 4 weeks in a row using your guidelines in the "Can bread make good pizza?" thread

66% water, 2.5% salt, 25% starter, .25% IDY

Ah good to know.  It sounds like a keeper.    Whenever you tire of eating such great pizza and want to try something new, here's your next challenge.   Make the same quality crust using a 50/50 00/HG blend, it will be better than your current pie - I promise.  Mark, as I have told others who have been happy with recipes I've help them with, there's A LOT of credit that goes to the pie maker as well.  Great pies aren't made with or by great recipes, they are made by great pie makers.  We all know great pies rarely happen accidentally, especially if they are reproducible.   There is a lot of skill involved in many different aspects that all have to come together each and every time.   And the conditions and rules are not the same everytime.  They are ever changing, so we have to be flexible and make those adjustments almost intuitively.   From the way the dough feels throughout different phases of the process, to the way it's opened, to how and what it's topped with, the bake, etc.   I still remember your first pies, burnt cheese and crust - they still ate good I'm sure.  Boy have you progress really fast.  Perhaps faster than I have.    Along with your sushi making skills, I am not surprised at all by how fast you have improved.  You are a quick learner and a skilled pie maker Mark.  

The hardest part is convincing others how good it really is.   Perhaps you and Bobino can have a pizza bake off! Who will reign supreme?  

Chau

[StrayBullet]

Chau,

Thanks for the kind words, I really appreciate it!!!

I hear 'ya about the difference between knowledge and application, to turn out both pies you have to have both skills; with a ton of help from lots of different people here, I've been able to apply that information in a somewhat short period of time.  Once I've got my mind set, I usually do pretty well.  Not saying that I've mastered this at all, but with 4 weeks of the exact same results, using the same recipe, has got to count for something

Funny you mention the Sushi, I'm actually making surf&turf rolls (king crab leg meat inside, this slices of beef laid on top) tonite with tuna poke

And as for me and Bob, I think he'd win hands down!  I have to try and meet up with him and Dave a little more often so I can absorb as much as I can!!!

Mark