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Offline thelistons1

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Trying to get some answers
« on: January 25, 2011, 07:44:19 PM »


I am new to the forum, but I have been making pizza at home for a few years. I am trying to perfect my recipe, but I am sort of struggling, any help would be fantastic.

I worked at a Pizza shop for a couple years a while back, and in my opinion they had the best pizza I have ever eaten. I am in the military and I have traveled to just about every state in the US and some overseas, and I have yet to try pizza that even comes close to this specific place in Arizona. Unfortunately I was too young to realize that I should have paid attention to the recipe, plus the owner kept it pretty secret, always making the dough when we were busy with other tasks. I have been trying for years to duplicate the recipe and I am close but still need a few tips.

The biggest issue I am having is trying to achieve an airy inside that is light and full of bubbles with a slightly crispy crust. My crust always has many very small bubbles and a very crispy crust. Chewy on the inside is one other item I am shooting for.

So far Here is my recipe. (This is just for one large pizza)

2 cups King Arthur High Gluten flour 14%
1 table spoon Olive oil
1 Cup water
3 1/2 tablespoons sugar
2 tablespoons salt
2 tablespoons Red Star Active Dry Yeast
2 table spoons Vital Wheat Gluten

I put all the dry ingredients into a bowl minus the sugar and yeast. With the sugar and yeast I put them into a bowl with 1/2 cup of warm water and let them sit for about 15 minutes. I then put the olive oil in another bowl adding the water, yeast, and sugar mixture. I then mix the flour mixture in a little at a time, stir and let sit for a couple minutes, I do this about 3 times until all the flour is mixed. Then I need by hand for about 15-20 minutes. I let it rest on the counter top for about 10 minutes then put it in the fridge for about 24 hours.

This recipe makes good pizza, but it is average compared to what I would like to achieve. One other issue I am having is the dough ball likes to rip sometimes when I am stretching it out, but I usually set it out for about an hour before stretching it.

I remember when I worked at the pizza shop, his dough was so resilient, and smooth, we used to take it out of the mixer cut it into pieces, make dough balls, put it on trays, cover it with bags, and the next day you could take it right out of the walk in fridge and stretch it, dress it up, and cook it,  it turned out perfect every time.

Any help I could get on how to make the perfect restaurant quality dough would be greatly appreciated. Or just perfecting my recipe would work as well.



Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2011, 07:53:01 PM »
Roughly, you have too much of everything but water.

Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2011, 08:02:12 PM »
I'm still learning so take all of this with a grain of salt, and I'm sure others will chime in to correct if needed and expand :)

That said, I'm not sure about the hydration (percentage of water to flour) since it's in volume but a quick search and it seems WAY off, but I could be WAY off :)

Since you're already working with a HG flour, I'm not sure you need to add VWG...in the same breath, I don't know how it would affect the outcome, so it could be ok...

The amount of yeast seems WAY too much to me...even with short-time cold ferments, that seems like a lot to me.  At a glance the salt and sugar seems high too.

I think I'm going to wait for some of the smarter members to chime in, but you've come to the right place....I'm now making these  :chef:

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2011, 08:04:46 PM »
thelistons1,

You will not achieve your objective with the recipe you have been using. I think your better approach is to tell us what style or kind of pizza you want to make and maybe one of the members can suggest a new recipe for you to use. Unless you are using a ton of bench flour or you are using multiple stretch and folds, all of your ingredients, including the water, are far in excess of what is needed to make a good pizza in a home environment. I wouldn't know where to begin to fix your recipe.

Peter

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2011, 08:05:52 PM »
Yep, I meant Flour, not water.

Offline thelistons1

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2011, 08:19:42 PM »
These are all good tips, The picture on the post is pretty close to the outcome I am shooting for. I am trying to make a California style dough. I kinda thought the flour was to high, but if I cut the flour back the dough gets too sticky and it is hard to kneed. I also do not have a scale so I have to use plain old Measuring tools which I know may be somewhat inconsistant, but I am just trying to get close right now. So basically I need to cut back on everything accept the water, thats a good start, because I was going to try adding more flour. I have noticed that the more I kneed the dough the tuffer it gets.


Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2011, 08:30:23 PM »
No, here is my basic dough, measured volumetrically.  It won't be exact, but it is in the ball park:

6 cups King Author Bread Flour (Or All Purpose, or whatever you have)
1 tablespoon sea salt (dissolved in 2 cups 90 degree water)  Use 2/3 initially in the mix, and hold back the last third if needed to get the dough to cottage cheese consistency.
1/4 oz ADY (dissolved in 1 cup of 90 degree water with 1 teaspoon of turbinado sugar) and allowed to proof for 10 minutes.


This is a very wet dough to begin with, and will need lots of bench flour, and a 24-48 hour rest in the fridge, AFTER balling.

Hand mix all the stuff for about 3-5 minutes, cover with a damp cloth and let double in a warm place for about an hour.  Dump it onto the bench, and fold it 7 times, and don't be shy about using the bench flour.  Form it into a ball, cut it into 4 pieces for 14" pies, 6 pieces for 12" pies, re-ball and put in fridge.


It is pretty much fool proof and very good. Skim the Pizza Anarchy thread for pics on how the dough looks at each stage.



buceriasdon

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2011, 09:03:07 PM »
2 cups King Arthur High Gluten flour 14%
1 table spoon Olive oil
1 Cup water
3 1/2 tablespoons sugar
2 tablespoons salt
2 tablespoons Red Star Active Dry Yeast
2 table spoons Vital Wheat Gluten

Guesstimating your flour weighs 8.96 oz. A cup of water weighs about 8.34 oz. So 8.34 divided by 8.96 equals a hydration rate of 93%. That is very wet to say the least. Is this right? Are you sure it's not three cups flour? Something is just not adding up here.
Don
« Last Edit: January 25, 2011, 09:05:26 PM by buceriasdon »

Offline thelistons1

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2011, 06:27:59 PM »
Ok, So I finally bought a scale, and did some research on the bakers percent so I could get closer to my dream pizza and figure out what I am doing wrong. I was confused after the last post because he stated that my dough was really wet based on the hydration percent. I started to do some research and found the most pizza dough’s need a 55 to 65 percent hydration rate compared to the flour amount. So I weighed my flour and got 360g then my water and got 225g if I divide the two it gives me around 63 percent hydration. The strange thing is after I weighed the flour and water to get the percentage correct, I looked at the measuring cup and it was almost exactly what my original recipe was. Well I made this recipe the night before and it was as dense as a brick, and sprung back to its original shape no matter what I did. So I cut the flour down to about 300g, and made another dough ball I am going to let it sit in the fridge overnight and see how it works tomorrow.

My revised recipe is as follows (feel free to analyze it for any further changes)

300g    Flour                 300/300=100%   
230g    Water                225/300=77%

I rounded a little so it may be a little off but it’s pretty close, I soak the yeast first in about half the warm water and the sugar for about 15 minutes, then dump the mixture of sugar, yeast, and water along with the rest of the water in a bowl, add about 1/2 the flour, mix with a spoon for a couple minutes until it is thick and somewhat smooth. Then I let it sit for about 30 minutes, then mix in the rest of the flour and need by hand for 8-10 minutes or so, then let it sit for about 30 more minutes. I put it in the fridge for about 24 hours. I then take it out about an hour before I am going to use it.

After all of this work, the dough still seems to be off, the taste is good the smell is good, it is even about the right chewiness, but very small bubbles in crust and very springy. I am thinking about cutting the flour back more, but last time I tried that it got too sticky to handle. :(

Any Ideas?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 08:07:54 PM by thelistons1 »


Offline thelistons1

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2011, 06:36:57 PM »
One other thing my Dough is thin in some spots thick in others and really uneven, not smooth, will it help if I kneed it longer? Im almost out of ideas. ???

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2011, 06:44:02 PM »
Any Ideas?

thelistons1,

Your yeast and garlic powder quantities are off the charts. I honestly wouldn't know how to counsel you to make that dough formulation work. I suggest a new recipe.

Based on the high sugar and oil content of your dough, I would suggest that your try one of the Papa John's clone dough formulations set forth in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.0.html. I think a good starting point would be the PJ clone dough formulation given in Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg59217.html#msg59217.

Peter

Offline thelistons1

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2011, 06:51:47 PM »
Sorry, I may have totally screwed up the bakers percent, I was under the impression all the ingredients under the flour had to add up to one hundred so I tweaked it a little on paper.  :-[

here is the measurements in tsp form

300g Flour (High Gluten
225g Water
1 tsp garlic salt
2 tsp olive oil
2 tsp Sugar
2 tsp pizza dough flavor
2 1/2 tsp yeast

This may be a little easier to understand, I was trying to conform to the bakers percent without that much research, sorry can't hang with the big boys yet.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2011, 06:57:38 PM »
thelistons1,

Can you tell me whose pizza dough flavor you are using, and also the type of yeast (cake yeast, instant dry yeast or active dry yeast) you are using? Also, are you fermenting the dough at room temperature or in the refrigerator?

Peter

Offline thelistons1

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2011, 07:06:04 PM »
King arthur dough flavor, and I let it rise for about an hour on the counter, then put it in the fridge for 24 hours. Red star active dry yeast.

buceriasdon

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2011, 07:37:02 PM »
Your present recipe has a hydration rate of 75%. Cut back the water. I'm with Peter, cut out the fancy smancy ingredients otherwise you are chasing your own tail. Get down to basics, then modify after you having a dough and crust that is working for you in small increments. This last recipe you posted has no real salt, hard to determine what level of salt you are using, is it ground garlic with salt added? Go with kosher or sea salt to start out. Flour, water, salt, yeast(and a lost less than you are using), maybe a little sugar and oil.
Don


Sorry, I may have totally screwed up the bakers percent, I was under the impression all the ingredients under the flour had to add up to one hundred so I tweaked it a little on paper.  :-[

here is the measurements in tsp form  

300g Flour (High Gluten
225g Water
1 tsp garlic salt
2 tsp olive oil
2 tsp Sugar
2 tsp pizza dough flavor
2 1/2 tsp yeast

This may be a little easier to understand, I was trying to conform to the bakers percent without that much research, sorry can't hang with the big boys yet.

buceriasdon

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2011, 07:40:54 PM »
Are you re-hydrating the ADY or just putting in with other dry ingredients?

King Arthur dough flavor, and I let it rise for about an hour on the counter, then put it in the fridge for 24 hours. Red star active dry yeast.


Offline thelistons1

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2011, 07:53:49 PM »
I am re-hydrating the yeast in half the water with the sugar in a bowl for about 15 min. before use. Along with the post about cutting back the water, I tried that, and the dough becomes stiff and hard to stretch, also it rips when I stretch it, and it gets really dense, hard to work with. I tried 60 and 65 percent hydration, they all have the same outcome. I am wondering if it is in the kneeding process were I am making mistakes. I do not have a machine so I have to do it by hand. I usually Kneed for about 10 to 15 minutes by hand, but I have tried up to 30 min, the dough seems to get stiffer the more I kneed.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 07:56:45 PM by thelistons1 »


Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2011, 08:00:12 PM »
The yeast % is way too high(Like 10X too high), the garlic screws with the yeast and you have too much sugar and salt.  What is "pizza dough flavor"?   I do not know where you came up with that recipe but you should ditch it and start over.

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2011, 08:24:54 PM »
300g Flour (High Gluten
225g Water
1 tsp garlic salt
2 tsp olive oil
2 tsp Sugar
2 tsp pizza dough flavor
2 1/2 tsp yeast

thelistons1,

Using garlic salt and the King Arthur Pizza Dough Flavor makes it a bit more difficult to analyze your dough formulation but using the McCormick's garlic salt as a proxy for your garlic salt and using the King Arthur nutrition facts for the King Arthur Pizza Dough Flavor, I was able to do some data conversions and, with a few tricks, to use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with a baker's percent version of your recipe. It is as follows:

High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (75%):
ADY (3.14999%):
Garlic Salt (1.86667%):
Olive Oil (2.99999%):
Sugar (2.65781%):
King Arthur Pizza Dough Flavor (0.66667%):
Total (186.34113%):
300 g  |  10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs
225 g  |  7.94 oz | 0.5 lbs
9.45 g | 0.33 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.5 tsp | 0.83 tbsp
5.6 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
9 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
7.97 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
2 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
559.02 g | 19.72 oz | 1.23 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The actual salt content will be lower than specified because garlic salt is not all salt; the King Arthur Pizza Dough Flavor comprises autolyzed yeast extract, maltodextrin, cheddar cheese powder [cheddar cheese (milk, salt, cheese cultures, enzymes {wheat}), whey, buttermilk, salt, disodium phosphate], lactic acid powder (lactic acid, calcium lactate), natural flavor, garlic powder, soy lecithin, and silicon dioxide (to prevent caking).

The numbers that jump out at me are the hydration, at 75%, and the ADY, at about 3.15%. The 75% hydration may work if a lot of bench flour is used or if multiple stretch and folds are used to strengthen the gluten matrix. But the ADY is off the charts. For the fermentation regimen you described, you shouldn't need more than about 0.60% ADY. Your salt level may be a bit high because the KA Pizza Dough Flavor also contains salt. Since the KA Pizza Dough Flavor also contains garlic powder, even though it is far down the list of ingredients, you might reduce the amount of garlic salt to compensate for the additional garlic powder.

Peter

Offline thelistons1

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2011, 08:58:43 PM »
I appriciate the calculations, I think I am going to take the advise of this forum and start over with the basics, flour, yeast, water, sugar, and salt. I just want to see if I can get a consistently smooth easy to stretch dough first then try to add some of my other ingredients later. Something seems to be making my dough super tuff, and hard to stretch, once I remedy this issue I can then resort back to these calculations to add extra flavor.

Thanks for all the help everyone.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2011, 09:53:27 PM »
You should let the flavor develop through fermentation.  I add various spices and herbs to my dough, and none of them have any real effect on the taste.  They affect the appearance, but all of the flavor is developed by the fermentation alone.

Offline Pedro72

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Re: Trying to get some answers
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2011, 11:10:19 PM »
I've had great success using the Lehmann dough calculator that you can find on this site. I use Harvest bread flour from Costco, kosher salt, Red Star active dry yeast, and water...that's it. I use my digital scale, and I do a 65% hydration, .75% ADY, 2% salt, no sugar, no oil. I make 400 gram dough balls, let them cold rise for at least 24 hours, then they're ready to be made into a 13-14 inch pie. The 65% hydration might be a little too much for what you're looking for, but all my friends and fam agree with me that those percentages make a great dough, with good chew in the crust. Start simple, and you may find that you don't want to add anything like garlic salt or pizza flavor.
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