Author Topic: MORE BUBBLES!!  (Read 1412 times)

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Offline thelistons1

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MORE BUBBLES!!
« on: January 29, 2011, 05:27:37 PM »
What component of dough making will add larger bubbles within the crust and make it lighter. I am already at a 68% Hydration rate, so I dont want to take away flour. My crust has good flavor, and good color it is just so cakey, and dense. I need to find the component that produces more bubbles and add or subtract. I am using 2 tsp of yeast is that too much?

I have scraped my original recipie and tried to start from scratch, every thing is perfect with the new recepie except for the bubble factor.

365g flour
255g water
1tsp sugar
1tsp Sea salt
2tsp Red star active dry yeast
1tsp olive oil
Fermentation about 24 hours


Offline dellavecchia

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Re: MORE BUBBLES!!
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2011, 05:39:41 PM »
What type of flour are you using?

John

Offline thelistons1

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Re: MORE BUBBLES!!
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2011, 05:43:58 PM »
High gluten King Aurthor.

scott123

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Re: MORE BUBBLES!!
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2011, 06:23:33 PM »
To get more bubbles:
Add heat
Subtract baking time

Also, 2 tsp. of yeast is too much for that amount of flour/fermentation time. Are you refrigerating the dough? What temp is the water?  Is the dough doubling during that 24 hours or is it going past double and then deflating?

Offline thelistons1

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Re: MORE BUBBLES!!
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2011, 07:06:40 PM »
The dough is doubling in size and does not seem to be deflated after I take it out of the fridge. The water is about 90 to 100 degrees to activate the yeast, after the activation of the yeast it probably drops to room temp. I Cook the dough at 490-500 degrees for about 10 to 12 minutes. My oven goes to 550 I will try cranking it up and reducing bake time, I will also try reducing the yeast to 1tsp to see if that helps.

Thanks for the info

scott123

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Re: MORE BUBBLES!!
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2011, 09:32:45 PM »
Matt,

I went back and looked at your previous posts to gain a better understanding of your quest.

Was this place you worked at in Arizona California style?  Even if it was, California is just NY style with unique toppings, so, if you haven't already, you might want to familiarize yourself with the NY style section of the forum.

While you were working there, do you recall how long it took to bake a pizza?  Matching their bake time is important- as I said before, bubbles aka oven spring, is a byproduct of quick bake times.  Unless you know, for certain, how long they baked their pies for, I would strive for a bake time of less than 5 minutes. Your average stone usually can't achieve this kind of bake time with a 550 degree oven. Could you describe your oven and your stone?

The other area is flour.  I recommend attempting to match their flour.  Do you recall any flour bags sitting around?  I can pretty much guarantee that it wasn't King Arthur and that it probably was bromated.  Bromated flour is another bubble aid- not quite as powerful as a short baking time, but every little bit helps.

I applaud your willingness to scrap your original plan, take the knowledge from this forum and start from scratch. With the reduction in yeast, I think you've got a very respectable recipe there. You might, at some point, play with the water a bit (68 is a little above the norm), but I don't think that has much bearing on your current issue.

In a previous post you mentioned that they used to form the dough right from the fridge.  Is this true or did they let it sit out for a bit? Are you letting your dough sit out?

It'll take some trial and error to hit the perfect level of fermentation (doubled, or even tripled, with lots of visible bubbles underneath- a clear container is ideal), but that's relatively unimportant compared to the oven/stone setup and bake time.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 09:33:30 AM by scott123 »

Offline new2dough

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Re: MORE BUBBLES!!
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2011, 08:32:10 AM »
What component of dough making will add larger bubbles within the crust and make it lighter. I am already at a 68% Hydration rate, so I dont want to take away flour. My crust has good flavor, and good color it is just so cakey, and dense. I need to find the component that produces more bubbles and add or subtract. I am using 2 tsp of yeast is that too much?

I have scraped my original recipie and tried to start from scratch, every thing is perfect with the new recepie except for the bubble factor.

365g flour
255g water
1tsp sugar
1tsp Sea salt
2tsp Red star active dry yeast
1tsp olive oil
Fermentation about 24 hours


I usually stick with ~52% hydration @ 24 h fermentation and I usually get excellent bubbles/airpockets in the rim area.
Sure, not as big as the the ones NY-neapolitan style pizzas have, but sufficient for my needs. ^^
I use a pre-heated pizzastone @ 527 F (275C), cooking time ~6 minutes. Usually the airpockets starts to expand after 20-30 seconds, or if the stone was properly pre-heated, the tiny pockets hidden in the rim starts to expand almost immediately.
I've noticed that a long fermentation in the refridgerator results in a better airpocket development, but it may also be because I open the dough and bake it immediately after it has been brought out of the refridgerator.
Another deciding factor is ofcourse how you open the dough. I form the rim and am pretty careful not to smash it during the full opening process. However, if I slap, throw or abuse the dough and as long as I don't abuse the rim, I get airpockets. Also, the rim size just before baking should, according to my experience, not be too large - I find it's optimal when the rim is barely visible but there are enough gas and vapor (?) trapped and hidden inside that tiny rim. That, together with the sudden high heat should result in airpockets.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 08:37:06 AM by new2dough »

Offline thelistons1

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Re: MORE BUBBLES!!
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2011, 12:01:08 PM »
I don't believe it was a specific style, it was usually a little dark in color but not burnt and he used a sourdough addative to give it a very unique and tasty flavor, the original recepie was past down from generations I am guessing because the owner had laminated recipie cards that were very old. All the other ingredients seemed to normal accept for a little package of some kind of powder he put in every batch.

As far as bake time it only took a few minutes now that I think about it, we had an oven that had heating elements on top and bottom and a slow moving mesh type screen that ran through the oven very slowly, but it only took a small amount of time.

I dont remember anything from the flour, all I know is it came in 50 lbs bags and it was definatley not king arthor, they delivered it with the little package of secret flavor powder, usually 4 or 5 bags at a time.

Also yes, we never let the dough sit out of the fridge for any period of time we would go into the walk in, grab the dough and stretch it, it was very simple, there was no fighting the dough, it would simply stretch evenly, we would top it and run it through the oven start to finish 8 to 10 minutes and done.

The man that used to own the restaurant sold it a couple years ago, and If I would have known it was for sale I would have bought it, but someone beat me to it, he sold all of his recipies along with the building, I really missed out on that deal, It has been in business for at least 30 years now, and like I said before, the best pizza I have ever had.

scott123

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Re: MORE BUBBLES!!
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2011, 01:03:26 PM »
That's a conveyor oven you're describing.  I'm not a huge fan of conveyors, but I'll concede that it's possible someone, somewhere can make a great pizza with one. That's not the norm,though.

As important as it is to try and mimic the pizzeria's approach as closely as possible, I'm not sure you want to use dough straight from the fridge.  Sure, in theory, you could probably compensate for the lack of manageability that the cold causes by going with a higher hydration or kneading the dough less, but I really think allowing the dough some time to warm up is a good idea. I would try it two ways:

1. A high water (70ish%) version stretched cold
2. A more traditional water (63%) given a couple of hours to warm up


Could you tell us a little bit about your stone?

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: MORE BUBBLES!!
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2011, 01:48:51 PM »
Sorry if this has been talked about elsewhere, but could you describe your mixing regime for this recipe?

John


Offline jeff v

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Re: MORE BUBBLES!!
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2011, 01:57:57 PM »
I would look at 3 things first-
Is it kneaded properly
Is it fermented properly
Is it handled properly while shaping

IMO if these three aren't done right it's uphill the rest of the way. This forum has vast resources for all 3 subjects or you could post your regimen in detail and we'll try and help.
Back to being a civilian pizza maker only.

Offline thelistons1

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Re: MORE BUBBLES!!
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2011, 04:51:21 PM »
I am not really looking for the component of the dough which allows me to take it strait out of the fridge and stretch it into a pie, I can manage with waiting, I just thought it was an interesting aspect of this particular individuals pizza dough. Right now I am mainly focused on just getting a good dough consistantly, then I may focus on other portions later.

The process I go through to make the dough is very similar to the way most people are doing it I have tried different ways, but the one that produces the best result is as follows.

First, 1/2 cup hot water (100 degree) with 1tsp sugar, and 2tsp yeast, in a bowl, allow to sit for 15 to 20 minutes
Second, measure the flour in a bowl 365g, and add 1tsp salt with flour.
Third, to the bowl of flour add 2tsp olive oil, yeast, sugar, and water mixture, and one more 1/2 cup of water (total 1 cup water, 255g).
Fourth mix gently, then dump onto table top knead for 8 to 10 minutes
Fifth let rise on counter top for about 30 minutes, then refrigerate for about 24 hours.


Offline Tscarborough

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Re: MORE BUBBLES!!
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2011, 05:10:04 PM »
That seems to be a lot of yeast and a lot of kneading to me.

Offline thelistons1

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Re: MORE BUBBLES!!
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2011, 05:18:12 PM »
Yes, this was my recipe yesterday, but as we discussed above I am going to drop down the yeast level, I just haven't had a chance to try another batch yet, I am also going to increase oven temp and decrease bake time. Also I forgot to answer one of the other questions I have a pampered chef average round bake stone, but sometimes I use one of those pizza pans with the holes in the bottom the results do not differ that much really, it may turn out a little crispier with the stone but it takes twice as long to heat it up so when I am testing different doughs I usually just stick with the perforated pan.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: MORE BUBBLES!!
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2011, 05:27:40 PM »
Try a screen.  It works much better than the perforated pans.

scott123

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Re: MORE BUBBLES!!
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2011, 07:28:20 PM »
Matt, you'll never get a 5 minute bake time with a pan or a screen, at least not at the temp you're working with.

This is how I gauge the impact of the contributing factors for bubbles/oven spring

Recipe: 2
Thickness factor: 1
Handling: 1
Bromated Flour: 2
Baking time: 4

Basically, you can have the ideal recipe, the right amount of dough, expert handling and suitable flour, but if you don't get that 5 baking time, you're only going to be 60% of where you could be, bubble wise. Now, a lot of people make dense and bready 60% pizza at home and love it, but if you want that extra explosiveness that makes pizza truly sublime, you're going to need to forget about pans and screens and focus on either pushing that oven above it's limit or investing in a better stone.

Electric oven or gas?

Are you forming the dough ball before refrigeration or after?

What size pizzas are you making? Your current recipe makes 2 dough balls, correct?


Offline thelistons1

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Re: MORE BUBBLES!!
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2011, 09:11:32 PM »
I am using a gas oven, I am forming the dough ball before refrigeration, and I am only making one pizza big enough to fill the entire pan maybe 16 to 18 inches, Im guessing.

scott123

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Re: MORE BUBBLES!!
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2011, 12:44:45 PM »
Ah, okay, I think you can pick up a little oven spring with a thickness factor adjustment. 620 g is way too much dough for a 16" pie.  Think about the time it takes to boil a quarter inch of water in a saucepan versus a half inch. By using too much dough and forming a skin that's too thick, you're extending the bake time and hindering oven spring. I use as little as 450 g for a 16" pizza, but that's pretty thin.  I would recommend shooting for 480 g.

With less dough and a stone preheated to 550, you should see a substantial improvement in bubbles.