Author Topic: how can i pass the window pan test using food proccesor  (Read 3531 times)

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Pizza01

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how can i pass the window pan test using food proccesor
« on: January 29, 2011, 09:55:47 AM »
i dont have stand mixer i have food proccesor
i used the plastic paddle for dough
http://www.getit.co.il/Products/Big/57296.jpg
i want to know was it the right way for adding the ingredients and the right order
i read that in bakery the salt is added after the dough is developed and  i read that in mixer theres poeple that add the salt after the flour. so what is the right way.
in food proccesor since the doughe stick at the center i need to put it after the food proccesor in a bowl and knead it by hand with the rest of the flour.
how long should i knead the dough in the food p.? and after how long by hand?
thank you in advanced


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Re: how can i pass the window pan test using food proccesor
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2011, 10:16:06 AM »
I make dough in the food processor all the time with great results.  There are a few things you need to keep in mind:
  • The food processor works very quickly so there is a risk of the dough overheating.  Use very cold water (say, 40 degrees F.)
  • Add all ingredients at the outset. Do not overfill your processor.
  • Pulse a few times (2-3) to get the water mixed into the flour, and then let it all sit for 15 minutes to hydrate the flour. This step is more important than you might think
  • After your resting time, start the food processor and mix for about 30 seconds.  Check the dough and if needed mix another 15-20 seconds. You probably don't want to mix it much more than 45 seconds total or you might overheat your dough. For most recipes your dough should not exceed 75 to 80 degrees when done
It takes a few times to understand how the processor works with your dough.  Provided you are OK with relatively small batches of dough I find that the processor is really superior to the mixer for achieving a nice smooth silky dough.  In my processor no kneading is required after taking it out of the processor. But it really depends on your recipe, your processor, etc. 

Pizza01

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Re: how can i pass the window pan test using food proccesor
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2011, 10:30:12 AM »
i made about 30-40 times dough in it, the water i used is 20 cl.
i knead it after because in the proccesor the paddle after is start mix the dough is spining on the center.
i do it diferently every time but i want to know the right order and time for adding idy, salt and so
kneading the dough by hand after pouring the mixture into bowl giving it the last touch because its not mixer with a fork its food proccesor.
so i want to do it right and in the right order to developed the best as i can from it.
i am preaty please wuth it now but the order and window pan is what i think about.
thank for your answer

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: how can i pass the window pan test using food proccesor
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2011, 10:39:52 AM »
Michael,

I have a different model of food processor (Cuisinart 14-cup capacity) so I don't how it compares with yours. However, I discussed how I use my food processor, including the sequencing of ingredients, to make a NY style dough in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2189.msg19289.html#msg19289. You can also read Bill/SFNM's method for using a food processor to make a Neapolitan-style dough at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6322.msg54238.html#msg54238. In my case, I have used both the plastic and metal blades and while both work to knead the dough, over time I have come to prefer the metal blade. For some doughs, especially for doughs with a fairly low hydration (e.g., around 55%), I have used both a food processor and a stand mixer to make the dough because the food processor does not do an adequate job of forming the dough by itself. I let the food processor get thing started and then use the stand mixer to do the rest of the kneading.

The late addition of salt is used by some bread bakers and also by some pizza operators, apart from the autolyse method, which calls for leaving the salt out of the dough during the autolyse. The negative of the late addition, especially if a high mixing speed is used to knead the dough, is that the dough can become oxidized (the salt is an antioxidant) and the finished dough can end up with damaged carotenoids that contribute to crust flavor and the dough can be of a lighter (whiter) color as a result. Some pizza operators add the salt toward the end of the knead if the flour is a strong flour. This is discussed in relation to a Neapolitan style dough at the Italian pizza website at http://www.pizza.it/lnk_english_faq_ingredients.asp#salt.

It is hard to specify knead times because the times will depend on the dough formulation, especially the hydration, and the dough batch size. I don't use the window pane test for doughs made in my food processor. I try to get the dough to the same stage as any other machine I use, especially for the same recipe, and let biochemical gluten development do the bulk of the heavy lifting.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 10:46:34 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: how can i pass the window pan test using food proccesor
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2011, 02:01:32 PM »
Peter - Do you have a favorite go-to recipe for NY Style in your Cuisinart?  I have a conventional oven with a stone and 47 lbs of 13% protein flour 8-)

Reply 31 on the master Lehmann thread looks like it might be a good place to start - have you any other/better ideas?

Thanks
Dave
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Pizza01

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Re: how can i pass the window pan test using food proccesor
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2011, 05:03:16 PM »
thank you peter it helped me understand lots of things and i have learn new term from it AUTOLYSE. i will try it next time.
today i made dough in the food proccesor using the blade for the first time for it after reading your post.
first i puted the flour in the food p. bowl ( 85% of it)  and all the dry ingredients salt, sugar dissolved cy in water and added the water with the yeast gradually i think it took 10-15 sec on the lowest speed then stop for 30 sec added the oil and another 5 minutes knead.
the looked great the blade is been doing wonderful job peter.
photo 1 is the dough after food proccesor
photo 2 is after adding rest of the and finished kneading by hand, added the dough gradually.
i think it pass the window pan test.
thank again peter for your answer.
as you can see i also like to feel the dough for its final touch i have it is very necessary.
this 60% water in the dough.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 05:06:22 PM by msheetrit »

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Re: how can i pass the window pan test using food proccesor
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2011, 07:37:43 PM »
Peter - Do you have a favorite go-to recipe for NY Style in your Cuisinart?  I have a conventional oven with a stone and 47 lbs of 13% protein flour 8-)

Reply 31 on the master Lehmann thread looks like it might be a good place to start - have you any other/better ideas?

Dave,

As much as possible, I would like any dough made in a food processor to be the same as with any other machine using the same dough formulation, whether it is a stand mixer of a bread maker, or even a dough made by hand. Of course, each machine has its limitations. In the case of a food processor, it is the amount of dough that it can make and its potential to introduce a lot of heat into the dough if the machine is allowed to run unabated. One has to intervene, as by using the pulse feature and cold water.

The post you mentioned, at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5442.html#msg5442, took me down memory lane. Looking back, what I did then, in 2004, now strikes me as being archaic. However, at the time, the dough calculating tools did not exist (although I may have had a spreadsheet), so I was relegated to having to estimate the volumes of ingredients. Although the numbers I posted were correct, they lacked the precision that we are now able to achieve with the dough calculating tools. For example, today I did some conversions and ran the numbers through the expanded dough calculating at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html and got the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (62.0321%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1.68449%):
Olive Oil (0.96%):
Total (164.92659%):
265.08 g  |  9.35 oz | 0.58 lbs
164.44 g  |  5.8 oz | 0.36 lbs
0.66 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.22 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
4.47 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.8 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
2.54 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.57 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
437.2 g | 15.42 oz | 0.96 lbs | TF = N/A

There is nothing wrong with the above formulation although these days I would perhaps increase the amount of yeast (IDY) to reflect the winter temperatures. But, from the standpoint of dough weight for a single 14" pizza, the formulation lends itself well to a food processor. I think you can also increase the dough weight a bit if you want to make a larger pizza and your particular model of food processor can handle the increased weight. To give you an example, today I would perhaps use a Lehmann NY style dough formulation such as the following for a 14" pizza:

Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (165.15%):
237.83 g  |  8.39 oz | 0.52 lbs
147.45 g  |  5.2 oz | 0.33 lbs
0.95 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
4.16 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
2.38 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.53 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
392.77 g | 13.85 oz | 0.87 lbs | TF = 0.09
Note: No bowl residue compensation

You will note that the total dough weight in the above dough formulation is less than the weight I gave in Reply 31. Since that time, I learned that a true NY style dough is thinner than the dough in Reply 31. However, that is a matter of personal choice. I still like to use a thicker crust. The beauty of the dough calculating tools is that you can construct whatever dough you want. I think you should be able to make a 16-18 ounce NY style dough in a 14-cup capacity food processor without encountering problems, as you might get by kneading the dough too long to achieve the desired finished dough condition but at the expense of overheating the dough. But, overheating the dough isn't necessarily the end of the world. It will just speed up the fermentation and shorten the window of optimum usability of the dough. If you can live with that, you should be OK. But it means that you have to monitor the dough more closely.

Peter

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Re: how can i pass the window pan test using food proccesor
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2011, 07:45:55 PM »
first i puted the flour in the food p. bowl ( 85% of it)  and all the dry ingredients salt, sugar dissolved cy in water and added the water with the yeast gradually

Michael,

I did not discuss the use of cake yeast in a food processor application mainly because I cannot find cake yeast in the supermarkets near me (and there are no local bakers using fresh yeast) and because most of the members tend now to use dry forms of yeast. However, the best way to use cake yeast is to just crumble it into the flour. The cake yeast can tolerate cooler temperatures than the dry forms, because it is already highly hydrated, but, like dry forms of yeast, it does not like to be shocked. Cake yeast can be hydrated separately, but ideally you want to use the water at around 75 degrees F (about 24 degrees C). Once cake yeast is added to the flour, it can tolerate just about any water temperature, within reason, of course.

Peter

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Re: how can i pass the window pan test using food proccesor
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2011, 11:23:44 AM »
so hydrate the yeast with small amount from the water, added into the dough.
 and then add the rest of the water ideally at 75 f degrees?...

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Re: how can i pass the window pan test using food proccesor
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2011, 01:54:20 PM »
so hydrate the yeast with small amount from the water, added into the dough.
 and then add the rest of the water ideally at 75 f degrees?...

Michael,

If you are referring to the cake yeast, there are a few ways of using it. You can just crumble it into the flour and add the water at a temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F (24-27 degrees C) or you can stir it into a small amount of the formula water at around 75 degrees F and then add it to the processor bowl or to the rest of the formula water (which should be at a temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of 24-27 degrees C. There are some pizza operators who dissolve the cake yeast in all of the formula water, which you may have seen in some of the Neapolitan dough videos, but if you have to use a very cold water for finished dough temperature purpose, I think the two other methods are preferable even though cake yeast can tolerate fairly cold water. My preference would be to use one of the other methods for a food processor application.

Peter


Pizza01

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Re: how can i pass the window pan test using food proccesor
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2011, 03:04:03 PM »
with this dough i puted the yeast in small amount of the water formula and then to the bowl with the  flour and the rest of the dry ingridients.
i am a litel afraid of crumble the yeast into the flour, i afraid that the yeast will not dissolve in the mixture, but if you say so i will try that, i am trusting on your ward peter every step of the way.
if i want to use water at 19 cl degrees i can crumble the yeast in the tow method you have writen (small amount of water 24 cl) and then add 19 cl water?
the reason i am asking this question is because of reply #59
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12606.msg125252.html#msg125252
and thank you very much for every thing peter.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 03:06:11 PM by msheetrit »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: how can i pass the window pan test using food proccesor
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2011, 03:53:35 PM »
Michael,

As you can see from Tom Lehmann's Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7512&p=50878&hilit=#p50878, there is no danger in crumpling the cake yeast on top of the flour. In fact, at another PMQTT post, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6219&p=39113&hilit=#p39113, he says that pre-suspending fresh yeast (i.e., putting it in water) is not necessary. However, there are people who prefer to pre-suspend cake yeast. It is common practice to do so with Neapolitan style doughs, such as the Keste dough in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12606.0.html. If you feel more comfortable with pre-suspending the cake yeast, then you should by all means do so. Or try the different methods and see which works best for you.

What I have discovered is that yeast has a remarkable way of distributing itself throughout a dough. For example, if you take a look at the post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332, you will see that I used only about 1/128 teaspoon of IDY that was stirred in almost 269 grams of flour and somehow the IDY found its way through the dough during mixing/kneading and fermentation. In Reply 58 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78689.html#msg78689, I used 1/256 teaspoon of IDY in almost 266 grams of flour and, again, the IDY found its way through the dough. You can see what 1/256 teaspoon of IDY looks like in Reply 55 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg78615.html#msg78615. Since I conducted those experiments, I worry a lot less about yeast getting distributed throughout the dough.

Peter


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Re: how can i pass the window pan test using food proccesor
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2011, 03:46:08 PM »
Michael,

That is a good article. What I would add to it is that there is a practical limitation to the amount of dough a food processor can make, and the hydration of the dough made in the food processor can be a limiting factor.

Peter

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Re: how can i pass the window pan test using food proccesor
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2011, 03:59:06 PM »
peter,
 could please add more detail about the hydration limit factor in the food proccesor that you mention?

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Re: how can i pass the window pan test using food proccesor
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2011, 06:29:31 PM »
peter,
 could please add more detail about the hydration limit factor in the food processor that you mention?

Sure. Maybe a few examples of where I have found a food processor to be a useful machine might help make the point.

When I was conducting experiments to make cracker style doughs, where the hydration was around 36% and where I was looking for a coarse crumb or cornmeal texture, I found my food processor to do a wonderful job. I also tried using a stand mixer and also making such a dough by hand, but the food processor was by far the best and most efficient mixer to use for that purpose. You can see an example at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49042.html#msg49042. In that case, the dough weight was just under 8 ounces, so I was not making a lot of dough. However, I am confident that the food processor could have handled considerably more than that.

I subsequently tried using my food processor to make a few doughs (Mack's "clone" doughs) with a hydration in the range of 55-57.5%. In those cases, the dough ball weights were around 18.5-20 ounces (for 18" pizzas). The food processor did a good job getting the dough started but it could not finish the job without using a long knead time and adding too much frictional heat to the dough balls and producing higher finished dough temperatures than I wanted. So, in those cases, I finished the kneading in my basic KitchenAid stand mixer. I am sure that had I made smaller dough balls, the food processor would have done a better job. You can see an example of one of my Mack's clone dough experiments where I used both my food processor and stand mixer at Reply 204 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97757.html#msg97757.

I have made several dough batches using my food processor where the hydration was in the range of about 58-63%, with no problem with dough ball weights up to about a pound or so. I have not tried very high hydration doughs in my food processor because most of my doughs are more like what independent pizza operators make, and they do not use hydrations above 63% that often. I suspect that very hydrated doughs, for example, much above about 65%, would not knead well in my food processor and might get under the blade and cause the blade to stall and stop kneading. It would also be messier to get the dough out of the bowl cleanly in the event the food processor succeeded with a high hydration. Remember, also, that one of the objectives is to achieve a finished dough temperature below about 80 degrees F. If finished dough temperature is not an issue, then perhaps the food processor can handle much higher hydration values. That might be acceptable for many bread doughs where finished dough temperature is not particularly critical.

I think the point I want to leave with you is that you have to find the balance between hydration and dough weight that works well with your food processor and produces a final dough that has a finished dough temperature of between 75-80 degrees F (for a cold fermentation application). With experience, I am sure you will learn how to achieve that balance.

Peter

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Re: how can i pass the window pan test using food proccesor
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2011, 01:03:36 PM »
thank you peter for your detailed answer, in your food proccesor you are making the whole procces of develop dough? does it form into a ball in it? or does it spin on the center on the blade?

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Re: how can i pass the window pan test using food proccesor
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2011, 02:31:18 PM »
....in your food processor you are making the whole process of develop dough? does it form into a ball in it? or does it spin on the center on the blade?

Michael,

Ideally, I would like the food processor to completely prepare the dough. However, if I think that too much heat will be added to the dough and thereby elevate the finished dough temperature above what I want, or if it appears that the food processor might not be able for some reason to achieve the desired final dough condition (e.g., there is a bit too much dough to knead), I will stop the machine and finish the dough by hand. I also do that with my stand mixer with a C-hook.

So long as the amount of dough is proper for my food processor, the dough will form into a ball and spin around the bowl between the blade and the walls of the bowl. If there is a larger amount of dough, some of it may collect around the blade. That is usually not a problem. But you don't want to overload the machine with too much dough.

Peter

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Re: how can i pass the window pan test using food proccesor
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2011, 03:58:31 PM »
peter,
autolyse in food proccesor.
could you please tell me how it should be done?

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Re: how can i pass the window pan test using food proccesor
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2011, 12:16:00 PM »
peter,
autolyse in food proccesor.
could you please tell me how it should be done?

Michael,

I believe the last time I discussed the use of autolyse in connection with a food processor was at Reply 103 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50513.html#msg50513. However, in that case, I was not concerned with finished dough temperature, since I was going to put the dough in my proofing box anyway, and I used IDY instead of cake yeast. Normally, one does not add yeast to the dough during the autolyse period, to minimize acidification of the dough, but doing so is generally considered permissible if the autolyse rest period is shorter than the time it takes for the yeast to start to acifidy the dough. In my case, the autolyse period was only 12 minutes.

In your case, I would follow the procedures I set forth in Reply 103 referenced above but I would add the cake yeast later in the kneading process, after the autolyse rest period, especially if you use a typical autolyse rest period of around 20 minutes or so. If you have to achieve a particular finished dough temperature, and since the dough will rise in the direction of your room temperature during the autolyse rest period, you may want to reduce the amount of cake yeast slightly to compensate for that warming effect. Alternatively, you could use colder water but, in my experience, a flour hydrates better in warmer water than in ice cold water. Another possibility is to use water at room temperature or maybe a bit cooler, prepare the dough as mentioned above, and if the finished dough temperature is higher than the desired finished dough temperature, you can place the dough in the freezer compartment of your refrigerator for about 15-25 minutes (depending on the amount of the dough), and move the dough into the refrigerator compartment once the dough has cooled off sufficiently. You don't want the dough to freeze in the cooler--only cool down to about the desired finished dough temperature.

Peter