48 hour dough = signs of weakening?

[new2dough]

Hi all,

Took the plunge and tried a 48 h cold fermented dough.
(my usual 52% hydration, no sugar and very little yeast)

While the texture & taste was good (but not good enough to abandon the 24 hour dough) I found that
the dough felt weak, soft and slack during the opening session, the 24 hour doughs definitely felt stronger.
Also, it tended to brown less than the 24 hour dough but the crispiness was there, no complaints there.
I had no chance to take any photos of the pizzas sorry, but there were plenty of airpockets, and the tiny "pimples" on the crusts' surface
that come from long fermentation were at least doubled and larger.

Attached are some photos of the dough balls taken out from the refridgerator.
Do the tiny holes indicate that the dough's begun to weaken?
I'm trying to figure out if I visually would be able to notice any detrimental effect of a long ferment, and adjust the affecting factors accordingly
(or take it out and start to bake)

Thanks.

[Ev]

52% hydration? That seems quite low for most pizza styles. "Very little yeast" should in no way over ferment a dough in 48 hrs. Especially a cold fermented dough. The holes look like normal fermentation to me. Vacuum sealed dough? Now that's interesting. The actual full recipe and procedure may shed some more light on the problem, if there is a problem, that is.

[new2dough]

52% hydration? That seems quite low for most pizza styles. "Very little yeast" should in no way over ferment a dough in 48 hrs. Especially a cold fermented dough. The holes look like normal fermentation to me. Vacuum sealed dough? Now that's interesting. The actual full recipe and procedure may shed some more light on the problem, if there is a problem, that is.

52% is what my flour can take. I know it sounds low but I've never had anyone complain saying the dough felt too dry.
Besides, Michael Shepherd uses around 52% hydration for his pizzas, and if I did my calculations right Bruno's NY style dough calls for a lower hydration as well

Bruno's NY Style Pizza Dough

100% -All purpose flour, 10% protein
52% Water
4.5% Oil
2% Salt
0.5% Fresh yeast

a) I mix lukewarm water with yeast
b) I add oil to the water
c) I add salt to flour
d) I use a mixer (spiral hook) and let it run for ~8 minutes
e) I divide the dough and form balls
f) I cover them with plastic film and let them rest in room temperature for 20 minutes
g) I put them in the refridgerator

I prefer vacuum sealing, otherwise I get dry surface. With vacuum sealing, when the plastic film is taken off, the surface is little sticky.

I forgot that I had a leftover slice made from the 48 h dough:


 

[Ev]

If you are trying to replicate Brunos pizza, I guess your formula is basically correct. You did not mention the specific flour you are using but I would use something a little higher in protein, say 13 or 14%. Other than that, I'd say cut your yeast amount in half for a 48 hr. cold ferment.

[new2dough]

If you are trying to replicate Brunos pizza, I guess your formula is basically correct. You did not mention the specific flour you are using but I would use something a little higher in protein, say 13 or 14%. Other than that, I'd say cut your yeast amount in half for a 48 hr. cold ferment.

I just happened to stumble upon Bruno's dough recipe when I browsed the youtube (worldpizzamaking champions series) and now I have at least two operators on my mental list that suggests a low hydration dough rather than upping it 60% plus. ^^
I guess one could say a high hydration dough is more "forgiving", say, if you use a slightly dry flour (old, different batch/brand) - you need to pay more attention to a low hydration formula because the benefit/ flexibility you get from using a high hydration dough simply don't exist in the low hydration ditto.
But basically my theory is - why provide more water than what the flour (protein and carbs) can absorb / handle?
1 kg of all-purpose flour with 10% or thereabouts protein & 70-71 % carbs can absorb about 500 gram water, if my memory still serves me well (carbs absorb 33% of its weight, protein absorbs 250% of its weight).

The flour I use is Swedish, all purpose flour, 10% protein and 70-71% carbonhydrates.

[dellavecchia]

The flour I use is Swedish, all purpose flour, 10% protein and 70-71% carbonhydrates.

I might suggest that there is not nearly enough protein there for a 48 hour fermentation. You need to use a stronger flour for that, or supplement a percentage with high gluten flour.

John

[c0mpl3x]

the plastic on the dough is trapping fermentation gasses in the dough and forcing it to weaken/overproof, and run out of sugars to feed on

[new2dough]

the plastic on the dough is trapping fermentation gasses in the dough and forcing it to weaken/overproof, and run out of sugars to feed on

I didn't think of that, thanks for the information. Perhaps I should allow a tiny opening, say, 1 cm to allow the excessive gas to expel, or just cover the balls loosely?
I probably haven't looked closely enough but many pizza operators use plastic sheets/film to cover up the dough balls. Are you suggsesting that as long as the air inside has some room to move around (without any possibility for the outside air to get in and vice versa), the chance of overfermenting is much lesser?

[new2dough]

I might suggest that there is not nearly enough protein there for a 48 hour fermentation. You need to use a stronger flour for that, or supplement a percentage with high gluten flour.

John

Thanks for input.
You're probably right. I think I can conclude that 20-24 hours is good enough for me. The dough, at that stage, is still very strong and extensible and it's amazing what an additional 24 hours would do.. But it was a good lesson..!
The 12% protein flour I once used produced a very chewy crust that I wasn't so familiar with.

[c0mpl3x]

I didn't think of that, thanks for the information. Perhaps I should allow a tiny opening, say, 1 cm to allow the excessive gas to expel, or just cover the balls loosely?
I probably haven't looked closely enough but many pizza operators use plastic sheets/film to cover up the dough balls. Are you suggsesting that as long as the air inside has some room to move around (without any possibility for the outside air to get in and vice versa), the chance of overfermenting is much lesser?

pleat your plastic wrap like a pleated curtain when placing it

[Pete-zza]

new2dough,

Out of curiosity, and on the assumption that all of the ingredients in the Bruno's recipe are given by weights (other than the water), I did some calculations and used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to convert the recipe to baker's percent format. This is what I got:

Pillsbury Potentate High-Gluten Flour (100%): Water (50.0724%): CY (0.25%): Salt (1.25%): Pomace Olive Oil (3%): Sugar (1.25%): Eggs, six large (1.32275%): Total (157.14515%):

22680 g  |  800 oz | 50 lbs 11356.42 g  |  400.58 oz | 25.04 lbs 56.7 g | 2 oz | 0.12 lbs | 283.5 g | 10 oz | 0.62 lbs | 16.93 tbsp | 1.06 cups 680.4 g | 24 oz | 1.5 lbs | 50.4 tbsp | 3.15 cups 283.5 g | 10 oz | 0.62 lbs | 23.7 tbsp | 1.48 cups 300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs | 19.75 tbsp | 1.23 cups 35640.51 g | 1257.16 oz | 78.57 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: A dough ball for a 16" pizza is 20 ounces, yielding a thickness factor of 0.09947.

In reviewing the above dough formulation, there are a few things to keep in mind. First, 3% oil also has a "wetting" effect on the dough. Second, the eggs comprise about 75.8% water and about 10% fat and some lecithin that is sometimes used in baking as a fat substitute (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/111/2). Because only six eggs are used, which represents a small percent of the formula flour, it won't materially alter the formula hydration but, with the oil/fat, you are perhaps talking about an "effective" hydration of around 54.2%.

You are correct that there are dough recipes around with fairly low hydration. A good example of this is the "Old Faithful" dough recipe that Big Dave Ostrander, a former pizza operator and now a pizza industry consultant, used when he had his pizzeria. You can see the formula that he used at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg5976.html#msg5976. If you scan through that thread, you will find at least another version of that recipe with similarly low hydration, even when one takes the oil into account. But, low hydration doughs such as Bruno's and Big Dave's are not very common, especially for the NY style and especially using a high-gluten flour.

Peter

[new2dough]

pleat your plastic wrap like a pleated curtain when placing it

Will try that. Thanks.
FYI, I have zero problems with dough weakening when I ferment for 24 h and that's with the "vacuum covering method".

[new2dough]

new2dough,

Out of curiosity, and on the assumption that all of the ingredients in the Bruno's recipe are given by weights (other than the water), I did some calculations and used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to convert the recipe to baker's percent format. This is what I got:

Pillsbury Potentate High-Gluten Flour (100%): Water (50.0724%): CY (0.25%): Salt (1.25%): Pomace Olive Oil (3%): Sugar (1.25%): Eggs, six large (1.32275%): Total (157.14515%):

22680 g  |  800 oz | 50 lbs 11356.42 g  |  400.58 oz | 25.04 lbs 56.7 g | 2 oz | 0.12 lbs | 283.5 g | 10 oz | 0.62 lbs | 16.93 tbsp | 1.06 cups 680.4 g | 24 oz | 1.5 lbs | 50.4 tbsp | 3.15 cups 283.5 g | 10 oz | 0.62 lbs | 23.7 tbsp | 1.48 cups 300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs | 19.75 tbsp | 1.23 cups 35640.51 g | 1257.16 oz | 78.57 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: A dough ball for a 16" pizza is 20 ounces, yielding a thickness factor of 0.09947.

In reviewing the above dough formulation, there are a few things to keep in mind. First, 3% oil also has a "wetting" effect on the dough. Second, the eggs comprise about 75.8% water and about 10% fat and a some lecithin that is sometimes used in baking as a fat substitute (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/111/2). Because only six eggs are used, which represents a small percent of the formula flour, it won't materially alter the formula hydration but, with the oil/fat, you are perhaps talking about an "effective" hydration of around 54.2%.

You are correct that there are dough recipes around with fairly low hydration. A good example of this is the "Old Faithful" dough recipe that Big Dave Ostrander, a former pizza operator and now a pizza industry consultant, used when he had his pizzeria. You can see the formula that he used at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg5976.html#msg5976. If you scan through that thread, you will find at least another version of that recipe with similarly low hydration, even when one takes the oil into account. But, low hydration doughs such as Bruno's and Big Dave's are not very common, especially for the NY style and especially using a high-gluten flour.

Peter

Thanks Pete for making the numbers clearer, adding the additional effect the eggs and oil would have to the dough formula.
As I watched Bruno's clip, and especially when Bruno was cutting and forming the dough I could see some similarities with his dough and mine, how the dough didn't seem dry at all in spite of the lower hydration.
I should note that other brands' flour with the same amount of protein, carbs etc, might sometimes need more water. I found that out quite recently, when I tried a different brand and used the same amount of water etc only to discover that the dough became quite difficult to handle and had tendencies to dry out.

I've seen the David Ostrander link before and for me it is especially interesting since I'm in the dry-dough camp.
Apart from making life easier for pizza operators under training, what other reason(s) might there be for a pizza operator to use a low hydration formula (e.g. Mr Ostrander, Mr Shepherd and Bruno)?