Author Topic: 00 or high-gluten?  (Read 8275 times)

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Anne

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00 or high-gluten?
« on: April 29, 2005, 08:51:02 PM »
1st, I'd like to thank you for having this website.  I've been frustrated trying to make a good pizza dough for a few years.  I finally just bought "The Art of Pizza Making", which suggested high-gluten flour.  While looking, I bumped into this site.  

2nd, I'd like to apologize in advance if the answer is already here.  I did review all 5 pages of this topic, but I've been known to walk right by something in wide open view.  

And now I know that King Author does still have their Sir Lancelot flour on the website, you just have to know where to look!  

Now, to my question:  A number of the posts here talk about 00 flour, which I believe is a lower gluten, finly milled flour.  Other threads, and my new book, talk about using high gluten (14%) flour for pizza.  This apparent contradiction has me confused.  

Why would you use one instead of the other?  

Thanks!
Anne, pizza maker wanna-be


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2005, 10:01:27 PM »
Anne,

There are certain styles of pizza doughs that tend to favor one kind of flour over another. For example, the flour that is most often used by pizza operators to make NY style doughs is high-gluten flour. There are several brands of such flours, including the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour you referenced in your post. High-gluten flour is a strong flour and results in a chewy, almost leathery crust with a fair amount of flavor and dough coloration and the capability to handle a fair amount and number of toppings. By contrast, Neapolitan style pizza doughs, which have their origins in the Naples region of Italy, tend to favor the use of 00 flour, an Italian flour milled from national grains and sometimes grains from other countries. 00 flours are softer than the high-gluten flours and yield a softer, lighter, light-colored crust, which is usually sparsely and lightly dressed with toppings.  As you have correctly noted, 00 flours are lower in protein (and gluten) than most other flours, and they are milled differently than our domestic flours, giving them characteristics that differentiate them from the high-gluten flours.. Sometimes, high-gluten flour and 00 flour can be combined to make doughs that have characteristics of both the NY and Neapolitan styles of doughs. The well known DiFara's pizzeria in Brooklyn uses such a combination in a highly effective way.

There are no hard and fast or absolute rules about the use of flours in different dough recipes. It is possible, for example, to use high-gluten flour to make a Neapolitan style pizza dough (as do many of the so-called "elite" pizzerias in NYC), or to use combinations of domestic flours, such as bread flour, all-purpose flour, cake flour and pastry flour, to come up with flour combinations that are similar to the 00 flour. It would be highly unusual to see a 00 flour used to make a classic NY style dough or a deep-dish dough, although I'm sure that someone somewhere has tried. As you get greater exposure to dough recipes and study them you will in due course find the best path to the pizzas that will provide you with the greatest satisfaction. Reading the posts at this forum will also be a big help.

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2005, 03:41:49 AM »
Peter, you are a saint.  I don't think you will ever tire of helping people out.

Anne

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Thanks
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2005, 09:26:48 AM »
Thank you for the reply!  I think I will go the high-gluten route first.  I'll have to go order some. 

I'm mixing up some dough using K.A. bread flour, which is 12.7% according to their website.  I figure that will at least get me started while I wait for my high-gluten flour to arrive. 

Thanks again.

Anne

Offline varasano

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2005, 12:44:25 PM »
Anne,  KA Bread can be used to make great pies.  If you click the globe under my name you will see some picks and descriptions of how to use it effectively. Overall technique is more important than the type of flour in my opinion.

Jeff

Anne

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2005, 02:18:49 PM »
Blender envy!  That's a neat looking blender there, Jeff.  

I can see I have a lot of experimenting ahead of me to see what types I like best.  My K.A. breadflour dough is in the refrigerator right now.  

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2005, 02:26:55 PM »
Anne,

Jeff is right about using bread flour, especially if it is the King Arthur brand, which has a higher protein content than just about all bread flours, even those sold to the trade. I have made NY style doughs using the KA bread flour and it is a first-rate product. However, among pizza operators, it is the high-gluten flours that are most often used for the NY style. As with all subjective matters, the best way for you to find what you like best is to try both.

Peter

Offline russellq56

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2005, 04:28:50 PM »
I have tried all sorts of combinations of flour, bread, pastry, regular...to me nothing has worked like the 00 flour...however I had to bring four kilos from Boston to the Bay Area because I cannot find it here...most places have never heard of it...I have called Ital Foods in South San Francisco, but they don't seem to have it for retail, though I may be able to get someone to order the 25lb bag for me...does anyone know of a retail store here that carries it? I paid $2.25 for a kilo in Boston... I got a feeling the specialty stores here will ream me on the price...

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2005, 05:33:20 PM »
russellq56,

Welcome to the forum.

Can you tell me which brand of 00 flour you have been using? From what you have said in your post, it sounds like it may be the Bel Aria brand, which is one of the few brands of 00 flour sold in the 1 kilo bags and is also available on the East coast. Now you can see why people have resorted to experimenting with various flour combinations to try to emulate the 00 flour. The 00 flour is hard to find at the retail level unless you know exactly where to look.

Since you are in CA, you might want to contact Claro's Italian Markets, an Italian food specialty retailer with several locations in CA (with a website at claros.com). When I checked the Claro's website today I didn't see any 00 flour available, but I know from prior experience that they don't always list everything they sell. So I called them and was told that a shipment of 00 flour is scheduled to arrive there on next Monday or Tuesday. I was told that the brand of 00 flour they sell is the "Ital" brand, apparently a private label of Ital Foods in South SF. That is one of the few brands of 00 flour I have not tried. So, I am naturally curious about that brand, and particularly its protein level, which should tell us a lot about its potential use.

If you can, you might want to search out the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour. Based on my experience with 00 flours, I think it is the best 00 flour available in the U.S. Fellow member FornoBravo posted a message recently in which he provided a list of Caputo 00 distributors (see the list at http://fornobravo.com/brick_oven_cooking/pizza_ingredients/caputo_distributors.html). You will note that Ital Foods is on the list, so it may be worth giving them a call and speak to the Ital contact person named on the Caputo distributor list to see if they are willing to sell to you. It may well be that they have minimum purchase requirements that may put them out of contention.

The Caputo 00 flour is also sold, in the 25 kilo size, at chefswarehouse.com. If you can handle that amount of flour and don't mind paying shipping charges, their shipping charges tend to be lower than most of the others who also sell the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour. Chefswarehouse also sells the Bel Aria 00 flour, but in case size (10 one-kilo bags, I believe). PennMac, at pennmac.com, also sells the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour, and you may want to call (1-800-223-5928 or 1-412-471-8330) and ask for Rose McNeill. Tell her you are a member of our forum (she has dealt with several of our members already) and ask for a quote and her best price.

I hope this gets you going in the right direction.

Peter





Anne

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2005, 07:37:13 PM »
Update from pizza maker wanna-be:  

A qualified success.  The pizza tonight was certainly better than my previous attempts.  (Details you really don't need to know:  I used the K.A. bread flour, mixed on low speed for 15 minutes, let it rise a bit over an hour, tucked it into the refrigerator for 6 hours, let it sit out for about an hour [wasn't certain on that part], & cooked it in my perforated pizza pan. )

A bit bready, with a very even texture, but it was very good.  My husband was thrilled with it.  

Thanks again for the info.  I'm going to have fun experimenting.  

Offline russellq56

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2005, 10:32:54 AM »
Hey Peter thanks for your extensive reply...the flour I brought back from Boston was Bel Aria...it was superb! Claro's is in southern California about 500 miles away...too far for even pizza dough...but I have been in touch with Ital's Foods (not open to the public)and I hope to work something out with one of their customers for the large 25lb bag...I will let you all know what they have to offer...I have found 00 through mail order, but I am hoping to avoid those very high freight charges...

Peter, you seem to be the guru here...keep up the good work...

Russ

Offline russellq56

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2005, 10:55:06 AM »
Hey Peter again,

I went to Penn Mac site and they only have Bel Aria...chefswarehouse hase both Caputo and Bel Aria...the BA price is excellent (˝ of the retail I paid recently) and will probably offset the frt charges....excellent resources that all have been bookmarked in my Pizza folder!!!

no one should have to eat bad pizza or even pay $20 for a large pie like we do in CA...if you can make a great pie at home, you'll never be short of friends....

Russ

Offline varasano

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2005, 11:12:27 AM »
hey Anne,

Putting dough in the fridge is a technique used to slow down the yeast and let the lactobacilli slowly ferment the dough.  Typically this is done over a period of days.  If you are only going to wait 6-8 hours from knead to bake, then you are better off putting in much less yeast and letting it rise slowly at room temp. There is little reason to put dough in the fridge for 6 hours.

However, my recommendation would be to do a minimum 24 hour ferment using a cold rise and a natural starter (as opposed to IDY alone)

Jeff

Offline scott r

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2005, 11:14:17 AM »
Russ, Penn Mac has the cauputo, but it is not on their website.  I have noticed this with a lot of the foodservice providers.  Make sure you call and ask them if they have what you want. Just be careful, because they will substitute other similar items for what you have asked for without telling you.  It happened to me with some provolone, and I remember reading that it happened to another forum member with some mozzarella. I have a felling they would not do this with anything but cheese.  Rose is the person I talked to there, she is very friendly, and has helped out a bunch of us on this forum.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2005, 12:34:39 PM »
Russ,

If you can, you should seriously consider the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour if you can tolerate the price and quantity. I also was very fond of the Bel Aria, and I still like it, but I think the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour is more versatile. It has higher protein content and can be used alone to make Neapolitan style doughs or it can be combined with other flours, such as DiFara's does in combining the Caputo 00 with the All Trumps high-gluten flour. Further, I don't know of any major Neapolitan pizza operator who uses the Bel Aria. Maybe the Delverde 00 once in a while (as DiFara's once did), but it's mostly the Caputo 00 (examples of such users including DiFara's, Una Pizza Napoletana, Il Pizzaiolo, Regina Margherita, A16, and Naples 45.)

If you are dead set on the Bel Aria flour, I found that you can improve the use of the flour by adding about 15% bread flour (I used the King Arthur bread flour), as fellow member pizzanapoletana recommended (with good results) when I was looking for a substitute for the Caputo 00 flour, which is only recently coming within the grasp of home pizza makers. But the Caputo 00 flour can be used all by itself straight out of the bag. The only place where I thought the Bel Aria flour had an advantage over the Caputo 00 (and other 00 flours) is where I wanted to make a pizza, from beginning to end, within one hour--hardly an objective for artisanal pizza makers. I suspect the reason the Bel Aria 00 flour worked better there is because of its lower protein and gluten contents than the other 00 flours.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 02, 2005, 03:06:23 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2005, 04:28:04 PM »


Putting dough in the fridge is a technique used to slow down the yeast and let the lactobacilli slowly ferment the dough. 

Jeff

The cold rise is actually intended for giving the enzymes the time to process the starch in simple sugar and modify the gluten structure.

You guys are loosing focus supposing that the main reason for not going over 3-6 days cold fermentation is the lack of sugar. The major reason is the protease activity and how this  may destroy the gluten over a long period of time

Offline varasano

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2005, 07:06:02 PM »
Hey Marco,

The enzymes though come from the yeast and lactobacilli. I do not think the long rise runs out of sugar or starch. The dough has plenty of starch to last a long time. It's that the structure of the protein begins to break down. It's literally being digested by the organisms. According to Ed Wood, most of the flavor compounds though come from the lactobacilli and not from the the yeast. Since the yeast slow down at low temp, but the lactobacilli slow down much less, the long cold rise gives the dough a chance to develop it's flavor while not overrising. 

Is this your understanding, and if not, can you please give us a longer explanation of what is happening.

Jeff


Offline Sedagive

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2005, 10:52:14 PM »
Hey Peter thanks for your extensive reply...the flour I brought back from Boston was Bel Aria...it was superb! Claro's is in southern California about 500 miles away...too far for even pizza dough...but I have been in touch with Ital's Foods (not open to the public)and I hope to work something out with one of their customers for the large 25lb bag...I will let you all know what they have to offer...I have found 00 through mail order, but I am hoping to avoid those very high freight charges...

Peter, you seem to be the guru here...keep up the good work...

Russ


Since I'm new here, I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I found 00 flour in the Baker's Catalogue.  The website is: 
http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/items/.  Sorry if this is old information that everyone is already aware of.   :)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2005, 10:58:07 PM »
Sedagive,

The King Arthur 00 flour is not an Italian flour but rather a domestic clone of the 00 flour, with 8.5% protein. I have tried the KA clone but I don't think it compares well with the imported 00 flours, and certainly not with the Caputo 00 flour. Its protein content is lower than any real 00 flour I am aware of.

Peter
« Last Edit: May 06, 2005, 08:06:23 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Sedagive

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2005, 12:19:07 AM »
Sedagive,

The King Arthur 00 flour is not an Italian flour but rather a domestic clone of the 00 flour, with 8.5% protein. I have tried the KA clone but I don't think it compares well with the imported 00 flours, and certainly not with the Caputo 00 flour. It's protein content is lower than any real 00 flour I am aware of.

Peter

Peter, thanks for the info.   :)

Sedagive.

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2005, 01:51:25 PM »
Hey Marco,

The enzymes though come from the yeast and lactobacilli.

Jeff

The flour has already enough enzymes without adding the yeast. Italian "professional" flours comes in fact with a "falling value" number which indicates the enzymatic activity. I know Ed Wood book very well, however you need to read different sources to be sure of what you are saying. Leaving aside the use of a starter, and the bacteria activity (not all bacteria behave in the same way, but I am surprised that you do not know that below 5 degree Celsius, it slows down and they stop reproducing...), the cold rise is primarly intended for the enzymatic activity.

Offline Anne

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Received my flour! What about yeast?
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2005, 04:23:38 PM »
Hi everyone. 

Well, I received my Caputa 00 and my K.A.S.L. flour. 

My real question at the moment is this:  ADY and IDY have different weights per once (0.13333 for ADY and .10625 for IDY, according to one of Pete-zza's posts, I believe).  As far as equivalent effectiveness, is it by weight, volume, or neither?  In other words, does 1 oz of ADY have the same levening capability as 1 oz of IDY, or does 1 tsp of ADY have the same levening capability of 1 tsp IDY?  Or is the ratio something else? 


I just made my first dough w/ the 00, and I don't think it is going well.  I used, based on one of the 00 recipes I found (pizzanapolitana's?):
     20.5 oz 00 flour (probably; I added a couple of pinches to 20 oz) (100%)
     12 oz water (58.5%) @ 80'
     2.5 tsp salt (2.4%) - probably too much!
     1/4 tsp ADY  (.16%)
I added water, yeast, & 1/2 the flour & let it sit for about 45 minutes.  Then I added the salt and the rest of the flour and mixed for about 10 minutes (taking it off the hook a few times in there).  It really is still too sticky, and tastes very salty.  I put 1/2 in the refrigerator right away, and the other half I left out to rise.  The half I left out doesn't seem to have budged.  So I think I used too much salt & too little yeast.  I'll let it hang out in the refrigerator, though, until tomorrow night.

(I have to double the quantity, otherwise my kitchen aid can't handle it properly.  And my wrists can't handle mixing it by hand.) 

Next time around I think I am going to use the following proportions, which is similar to what is used in the high-gluten recipes posted here: 
     20 oz flour (100%) - any type
     12 oz water (60%)
     1 tbl sugar (2.11%)
     1 tbl oil (2.47%)
     1.5 tsp salt (1.48%)
     1 tsp yeast (.67%)
Not certain about that initial rest period or not.  I think my cinnamon swirl bread likes it, but that is a very different dough!

Anne, pizza-maker wanna-be

Anne, pizza maker wanna-be

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2005, 06:48:21 PM »
Anne,

Yeast is measured both by weight and by volume. Heavy uses of yeast, such as bakers and many pizza operators, measure yeast by weight. Most small users of yeast, such as home bakers, use volume measurements. The two numbers you mentioned (0.13333 and 0.01625) are conversion factors for converting teaspoons of ADY and IDY to ounces. This data was determined by members of this forum. To convert yeast stated by weight, the usual conversions are as follows: to convert from cake yeast to ADY, divide the amount of cake yeast in ounces/grams/pounds (i.e., weight) by 1/2; to convert from cake yeast to IDY, divide the amount of cake yeast in ounces/grams/pounds by 1/3. To convert from ADY to IDY on a weight basis, multiply the amount of ADY by 2/3. Since most home bakers use volume measurements, the conversion of ADY to IDY is achieved by dividing the amount of ADY in, say, teaspoons or tablespoons, by 1.25. Yeast packets as sold in the supermarkets usually show the conversions from one type of yeast to another. However, if you don't like dealing with math, you might want to use a yeast conversion chart to do the math for you. One good chart can be found at http://www.theartisan.net/MainCommFrm.htm, by clicking on the Conversion chart link on the left panel.

You baker's percents and ingredient amounts in your first recipe look correct. The amount of salt, while seemingly high, is the correct amount. High salt levels are common with doughs made using 00 flour. I hope you won't throw out the portion of dough that you indicated didn't seem to be rising. From your general description of the mixing/kneading technique, it sounds like you mixed the ADY with the water and a portion of the flour. If you did this, then it may take longer for the ADY to properly hydrate and for the dough to rise. The standard technique for proofing (rehydrating) ADY yeast is to mix it with a small amount of warm water ( a few tablespoons in your case) for no more than 15 minutes. The proofed yeast is then added to the rest of the water before adding to the flour and other ingredients. The amount of yeast you used is not too little.

Your second recipe also correctly states the baker's percents. You didn't indicate the type of yeast used, but I determined that it is ADY, just as in the first recipe. You also didn't indicate how you intend to prepare the dough using that recipe, but if you plan to use 00 flour for that recipe, you should understand that the final product will differ from what you will get using the first recipe. I hope you will let us know how the second recipe turns out.

I applaud you for competently handing the math in the above examples. You have done your homework.

Peter

Offline Anne

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2005, 07:53:36 PM »
Thanks, Peter.  I tucked the dough into the refrigerator.  I normally proof my yeast for bread as you describe, and will next time around for the pizza dough.You are correct, I didn't do that this time. 

Thanks for the weight conversion info for between yeast types.  I can see that now.  If, for instance, we are using 20 oz flour and 1% by weight IDY (just as an arbitrary example):
20 oz * .01 = .2 oz. 
0.2 oz = 1.88 tsp IDY. 
1.88 tsp IDY * 1.255 = 2.36 tsp ADY
2.36 tsp ADY = .315 oz ADY
.315 oz / .2 oz = 1.57, or approximately the 3/2 conversion you mentioned (well, you mentioned the 2/3 conversion from ADY to IDY).  So I'm happy now. 

I'm almost done w/ my ADY, and have a big vacuum sealed container of IDY in the pantry, so I wanted to make certain I had the relationship down. 

Thanks again. 
Anne, pizza maker wanna-be

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 00 or high-gluten?
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2005, 08:03:23 PM »
Anne,

You have it right 8). You go to the head of the class.

With the way you sling the numbers, you won't be a wanna-be pizza maker for long. You will be the real deal.

Peter