Author Topic: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough  (Read 3487 times)

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Offline scott123

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Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2011, 10:35:43 PM »
Nice work, Jerry.  It looks like you're headed in the right direction.

All the dough balls look a little on the squishy side.  They don't need to be smooth, but they should be a bit firm.  Here's a pretty good video on forming dough balls:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN9fwlCEY2Y" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN9fwlCEY2Y</a>


For NY style, you're going to want to pay a little closer attention to making sure the bottom is pinched shut, but this video is very close. If you are forming your dough balls in a similar fashion, then I'm going to recommend something I rarely recommend for cold fermented doughs- more kneading. If you're doing 5 minutes, try 6.


Offline jerrym

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Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2011, 11:04:15 AM »
For NY style, you're going to want to pay a little closer attention to making sure the bottom is pinched shut,

scott123,

many thanks. No i've not been paying enough attention to this part of the process. i'm just slightly wrapping the balls under to make a ball to put on the scales - will pinch shut on next go.

i'm aiming for 0.75% ADY and 3day on the next batch - keeping everything else same.

the idea of increasing the knead is spot on. i picked up effect i think from thunderstik.

i think either the increased yeast or increased knead will deliver the taste (~80% currently). i'm happy trying to find out which. may even be a bit of both so will up knead to 6 min. i currently base the knead on when the dough feels right - it stops sticking to the palm at the wrist joint.

ps video is very good - currently thinking of WFO but at early stage.

Offline scott123

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Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2011, 03:21:48 PM »
Jerry, here's a better video on balling dough

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfUONu_gnBk&amp;feature=player_embedded" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfUONu_gnBk&amp;feature=player_embedded</a>


The tricks with balling, and I think Chau does an excellent job of showing these, is that you want to

1. keep the dough ball round as you fold it into itself
2. fold it enough times so that the outer skin gets taught, but no more
3. pinch it shut gently

It depends on the hydration of the dough, but for traditional NY style levels of hydration (60-65%), if you go overboard with the number of folds or pinch the dough aggressively, the exterior will tear- and tearing, at this point, is not good.  Here's a video of how NOT to ball:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he-V1J86REA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he-V1J86REA</a>


If you haven't really gone to that great lengths to ball the dough in such a way that you get a nice taught (but not torn) exterior, then I wouldn't bump up the knead.  Unless you're kneading very slowly and methodically, 5 minutes is plenty.  My flour has more protein than yours, so I get gluten development very quickly, but I mix for 1 minute to achieve a 'shaggy mass' stage and then knead aggressively for 2.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2011, 04:47:41 PM »
scott123,

Can you tell me why you don't approve of the way that Tony Gemignani forms his dough balls in the YouTube video at
Balling pizza dough
The reason I ask is because in my experience a major factor in forming and shaping dough balls to get a tight closure is the hydration of the dough, including any "wetting" effects of other ingredients like oil, eggs, etc. I don't know the hydration of the dough in Tony's video, but a few months after the date of his video, with Tony's help, I converted the Pyzano's pizza dough to baker's percent and got a hydration value of around 58.5% (plus about 1.5% oil). See Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8032.msg79723.html#msg79723.

More recently, I saw a video of a NY pizza operator, Bruno Di Fabio, at
Bruno's NY Style Pizza Dough
in which Bruno describes his ball forming method at about 5:46 in the video. I also took a stab at converting Bruno's recipe to baker's percent format and got a hydration of around 50%. Accounting for the eggs and the oil that Bruno uses in his dough, I got an "effective" hydration of around 54%. See Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12883.msg125253.html#msg125253 .

I believe that Chau's dough that is the subject of the video you referenced is the one that is described starting at Reply 83 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11962.msg113388.html#msg113388. I did not see a particular hydration value mentioned but I am willing to bet that it is higher than the corresponding hydration values used for the dough balls shown by Tony and Bruno in their videos.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that how a dough ball is formed and shaped to get good closure depends to a large degree on the hydration of the dough, as stated or as modified to reflect other ingredients that add to the wetting effect. After composing the above, I recalled that I once tried to discuss the impact of hydration on forming a tight dough ball. I did a search and found the post I had in mind, at Reply 267 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg25145.html#msg25145. The predicate for Reply 267 was Reply 263 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg25134.html#msg25134.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 05:26:35 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2011, 05:00:09 PM »
Peter,

I also noticed in all the different hydration experiments I have done on different dough balls, hydration does come into play on how to ball a dough.  A higher hydration dough is a lot different, at least in my opinion, when doing stretch and folds or balling, than a lower hydration dough.

Norma
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Offline jerrym

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Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2011, 02:27:13 PM »
scott123,

much appreciate this education. i'd not appreciated the need for pinching and had only given lip service to the balling.

anyhow i made the latest batch before logging on and attach pic for info. have attached pic of kneading too (i follow method by Rosemary Shrager UK Chef - push out, roll back, turn 90 deg)

for info the batch is 62% hydration, 0.7% salt, 0.75% ADY, post bench hydration 59.2%, wt ~302g, manual knead 6 mins.

the 6 min knead did not seem too much - i did not need much flour for the last 40 secs which suggests it's in the right ball park.

on the balling you've answered my main question from doing it in practice - i felt i was folding/stretching too much when the dough started to tear. i was also very carefull not to pinch too heavily only aiming to close and seal. i will stretch the ball out a little in future as per the video and did not do it on this go.

the dough balls felt very good. i turned them pinch side down before putting in the fridge.

the only gut feeling going fwd is that this new flour could stand a higher hydration as the bowl was quite dry after the initial mix and not too sticky to handle - i could weigh the full batch quite easily before kneading (which was difficult with the AP flour which as we know was well over hydrated).

looking to cook sunday.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 02:29:06 PM by jerrym »

Offline jerrym

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Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2011, 02:59:00 PM »
the 3d 0.75% ady fits the bill for me.

had no difficulty at all on the peel or on transfer from shaping.

the dough balling technique made a real difference - the extent of the big air bubbles on previous pizza was about 1/3 rd across the section. with the dough balling & pinch this extended to 2/3 rd across.

the dough at day 2 started to show the speckle on the surface that i associate with long low yeast cold ferment. the yeast smell was very noticeable in the dough box too.

gut feeling was that the pizza was slightly more chewier than previously experienced and put this down to the 6 min knead which i will reduce back to 5min max going fwd.

the only slight down side which i don't understand is that in 1 off box only part of the dough was very hard and made shaping tricky (hard to stretch). i put it down to perhaps a cold spot in the fridge and that i should of turned the boxes whilst in the fridge which is my normal practice (only done on 1 off top box on this occasion).

going fwd i see no need for further tweaking - as is produces the goods - many thanks to this top notch site.

pic of dough box on day 3 just out of fridge

pic of slice showing extent of dough "bubbling" (was actually 2/3 across). nb camera is very poor on close up in artificial light)


 

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