Author Topic: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough  (Read 3489 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline jerrym

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 87
  • Location: UK
Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« on: February 06, 2011, 05:58:16 AM »
have made quite a few batches of ~6day cold ferment dough and also quite a few ~3day batches using the same recipe except increasing yeast for shorter ferment.

gut feeling based on the feel and handling of the dough is that 6d turns out wetter than 3d.

what i'm getting at is should i reduce hydration for long ferment c/w short.


recipe for info: flour 100%, water 62%, ADY 0.3% (6d) or 0.5% (3d), salt 0.7%, thk factor 0.11, hydration after manual knead ~58-59%.


Offline c0mpl3x

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1062
  • Age: 27
  • Location: north of pittsburgh PA
  • crumb bubbles!
Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2011, 08:15:46 AM »
by wetter you mean runnier?
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

Offline jerrym

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 87
  • Location: UK
Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2011, 01:34:21 PM »
c0mpl3x,

yes - runnier. but it also seems more stickier suggesting the hydration has gone up which it can't having been in an air tight container.

the problem is that the 6d dough is very prone to sticking to the peel where as the 3d does not.

a possibility is that more bench flour gets added to the 3d when stretching out to the pizza shape as it can be handled more easily (ie no where near as runny as the 6d).

another possibility is that the flour for the 6d breaks down in some way and can't hold as much water.

i'm searching for the best way to sort.

Offline scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6642
Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2011, 02:01:22 PM »
Jerry, gluten traps water.  This is why, as you begin to knead dough, it can be a little bit wet/gooey, but, as you continue to knead/develop gluten, the dough gets drier to the touch. Long ferments favor enzyme activity. Enzymes have a tendency to break down gluten, which, in turn, releases water, which makes for a wetter dough.  This is one of the signs of overfermentation and is to be avoided.  There's approaches one can take to mitigate the impact from enzyme activity, but it's pretty advanced pizzamaking and, imo, should only be experimented with once the basics are completely mastered.

I used to believe that if 1 day of fermentation produced a dough that was better than none, then, if I extended the time (reducing the yeast appropriately), the results would only improve.  I now no longer believe that.  I now look at cold fermentation as the equivalent of adding additional ingredients-  alcohol, esters, aldehydes, acids... a little of each tastes great, but more than that and they start to take over. As with all things bread, balance is critical.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 02:13:38 PM by scott123 »

Offline c0mpl3x

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1062
  • Age: 27
  • Location: north of pittsburgh PA
  • crumb bubbles!
Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2011, 11:42:40 PM »
in my experience, sticky/loose and wetter than it was earlier dough is overproofed
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

Offline jerrym

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 87
  • Location: UK
Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2011, 02:26:31 PM »
scott123, c0mpl3x,

many thanks for your help - appreciated.

the gluten "trap" is something i was not aware of. it also answers a personal longtime unknown as i always experience this "drier to the touch" during manual kneading. in fact i've been manually kneading more as i've got confident at the cold ferment. i'd picked up from ThunderStik that it would extend the ferment (which it does). i also feel that i need to build the gluten as i use cheapo all purpose flour.

i will reduce the hydration for the 6day.

scott123 - thanks for your 2nd para. i am at the point of trying to decide if the 6d taste is really any better than the 3d. i think anyone who does not make pizza would not tell the difference. from the personal convenience i like the 6d option.

i think overproofing (time out of fridge before shaping) is probably not the case as i think my tendency is too leave the boxes in the fridge for too long (typ ~2 hrs before shaping).

Offline scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6642
Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2011, 04:43:22 PM »
Jerry, proofing is synonymous with fermentation.  The moment dough is created, the proofing process begins.  If you refrigerate it, you're cold proofing or cold fermenting.  The time the dough spends outside the fridge before forming the skin is only part of the proofing process- a small part. In your case, the overfermentation is occurring in the fridge, not on the counter.

Using less water in attempt to compensate for overfermentation is a little like putting on a raincoat when there's a hole in your roof.  The wet dough is a symptom of a far deeper malady- a malady, that, if you want to do justice to your crust, must be addressed. Gluten is the structure bearing element of your crust.  When you overferment it to a point where it starts to break down and give up it's water, that's a fundamental problem. Extra water is just a small part of the overproofed picture. You lose oven spring, the crust looks and tastes strange and the crumb is uneven.  It's a bad situation that should be avoided at all costs.

There have been members here who have experimented with very long cold ferments and have been pleased with their results, but, not without a considerable amount of research and trial and error. Even then, I sincerely believe, for non sourdough, malted flour NY style doughs, that 6+ day fermented versions can't stand up to their younger cousins.  It's just not something that malted flour is engineered to do.

If your 6d dough is wet and your 3d dough is producing similar results, then I think it might be time to take a look at your 3d recipe as well, as that might be overfermented also.

Offline c0mpl3x

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1062
  • Age: 27
  • Location: north of pittsburgh PA
  • crumb bubbles!
Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2011, 12:19:07 AM »
dough from freshly mixed will rise about 2.5 times.  i would suggest 1-2 day on your dough, i worked at a shop with same dough problems as you, and the dough was usually pitched by the third day around, if we were slow we would just re-ball the dough and keep it for another day or two. 
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

Offline jerrym

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 87
  • Location: UK
Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2011, 02:34:54 PM »
Scott123, c0mpl3x,

the 3d dough works a treat and feels good when shaping. the appearance of the dough through the dough box for the 6d batch on day 6 is no different to the 3d batch on day 3 - i have some bubbles on the sides and base and the surface is just showing signs of large bubbles getting ready to form.

i am not confident on detecting overfermentation but the above is the best information i've gleaned from the site.

i do think my problems lie with using cheapo plain flour. the taste/texture/crumb of the cooked 6d is as good as the 3d (and i believe has the edge over the 3d) - it's just the handling that's the problem - it feels too floppy and prone to sticking on the peal if i get it too thin. the 3d is more like i would call pizza dough. the 6d is very much like Jeff Varasono's dough.

i know i could probably switch to higher gluten flour. the trouble is having already tried such flour the result is not significantly better in terms of pizza satisfaction than with the plain flour.

given your thoughts then i am perhaps better reducing the yeast for the 6d from the 0.3% to say 0.15% (ADY) to help identify what is causing the wetness.

i will take some pics of the 3d & 6d as i make batches. bake time for info is 6 min.

ps have pic of 3d:
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 02:40:33 PM by jerrym »

Offline scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6642
Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2011, 03:25:45 PM »
Jerry, I went back and noticed that we've discussed flours before. I hate to sound like a broken record, but if you ever want to do justice to your pizza crust, you absolutely have to get your hands on the right flour. The flour you're presently using will never properly stand up to 3 days of cold fermentation. No offense, but that picture looks more like wheat porridge or pancake batter than it does pizza dough. The gluten is just destroyed.

You've shown some extraordinary motivation and ingenuity with your roofing tile/oven setup, now seal the deal with a trip to Sainsbury's for their Very Strong Canadian Bread Flour. I guarantee you that the difference will be night and day.

Here's the details from the other thread:

Sorry Jerry and Scott, I have only just seen this thread..
Jerry,

You can get your hands on some good strong flour from 2 supermarkets here in England:
http://www.mysupermarket.co.uk/sainsburys-price-comparison/Flour/Sainsburys_Taste_the_Difference_Very_Strong_Canadian_Bread_Flour_1Kg.html

and here is the Waitrose flour:

http://www.ocado.com/webshop/product/Very-Strong-Canadian-White-Flour-Waitrose/10827011

I have used both of them and can tell you that they are both good flours. I have used the Waitrose flour more because I just think it is closer to the commercial flour that I use, but I am sure you will make great pizza with either.

Paul



Offline jerrym

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 87
  • Location: UK
Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2011, 01:19:32 PM »
scott123,

you are star man for me. the "flour" is temporarily parked (i have used the sainsbury very strong flour in a side by side). the trouble is i'm wanting to learn more about dough and it might sound mad but i'd like to find/experience the problems.

out of curiosity i'm going to set off 3 off batches of dough (hydration is initial excluding bench flour):

1) very strong flour 62% hydration, 0.3% ADY (that what i'm currently using) 6d ferment
2) cheapo plain flour 60.5% hydration, 0.3% ADY 6d ferment
3) cheapo plain flour 62% hydration, 0.15% ADY 6d ferment

will report on results. i hope the changes are enough to give a better feel for which has the greater effect water or yeast on the fermentation window.

Offline scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6642
Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2011, 06:42:20 PM »
Okay, Jerry, I hear what you're telling me.  I also think that the experimentation you're doing is great.

Just for the heck of it, though, could you try something along the lines of

very strong flour 62% hydration, 0.6% ADY, 2d ferment

It might be 3 days (or even 1 day), but I'd like for you to achieve fermentation success at least once- and then use that to judge the 6d and/or plain flour doughs you're using.

Offline jerrym

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 87
  • Location: UK
Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2011, 11:53:15 AM »
scott123,

will certainly add a batch 4 ie the 2d you suggest. it's something i've not tried and result will be interesting for me. before this site i made and used dough on the same day. that yeast taste from using the fridge is a huge step forward for me (on par with UK bought). preferment is something i also have in mind but need to learn to walk first.

ps i know the very strong flour will take 65% hydration and will bear this in mind when comparing results.

Offline jerrym

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 87
  • Location: UK
Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2011, 09:51:36 AM »
have completed a trial of 6 individual ~300g batches (0.11" thk factor) using 3 off after 2 days and 3 off after 6 days cold ferment. i can add detail and pics if needed.

had a major opps! - no yeast taste in any of the 6 off. consequently i need to check what i believe to be this new "yeast" taste i started getting since joining the site - i now think it may be down to sauce ingredient and advance making.

thoughts going fwd:
1) the very strong bread flour had significantly better taste when compared with plain flour but has too much springback for my abilities. going to try standard bread flour next.
2) the batch with the lowest bench hydration was the only pizza to stick on the peel - the longer fermentation does make the dough "wetter". reducing the hydration is easier than reducing the yeast.
3) i no longer think this Italian "restaurant" taste that i really gel with is down totally to the yeast
4) small changes in hydration on my batch size are small in gram weight requiring tight measuring margins which are prone to error and challenge domestic digital scales (my scale sensitivity is poor with 5g range). 

had real good time other than the one that stuck - many thanks to Scott123 for the inspiration to think differently.

Offline scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6642
Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2011, 10:21:31 AM »
Jerry, more details and pics, please  ;D especially of the proofed doughs.

I think the 'yeast taste' you're describing might be overfermentation.  No offense, but out of all the proofed dough photos you've posted, there's not a one that hasn't been well past it's prime. Overfermented dough is incredibly yeast-y tasting- so much so that it borders on impalatable for many.

If you're getting too much springback with the strong flour, don't switch flours, just knead the dough less.

How long are you kneading for?

Offline jerrym

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 87
  • Location: UK
Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2011, 05:15:11 AM »
I think the 'yeast taste' you're describing might be overfermentation.

Scott123,

i hope that is it as i can't really believe it's down to herb in the sauce. only trouble is that one of the batches was as "overfermented" as i've made in the past.

on manual kneading norm is 1 min per pie when making say a batch of 4 off ie say 4 mins. for the individual pie the kneading is more tricky to handle being smaller and was 3 mins.

will add details next
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 05:35:35 AM by jerrym »

Offline jerrym

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 87
  • Location: UK
Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2011, 05:33:06 AM »
the 6 off batches were as follows:

1) Canadian flour: hydration 62%, ADY 0.3%, initial wt 298g, post bench 308g, final hydration 58.7%, 6d target
2) All Purpose flour: hydration 60%, ADY 0.3%, initial wt 294g, post bench 302g, final hydration 57.5%, 6d target
3) All Purpose flour: hydration 62%, ADY 0.15%, initial wt 296g, post bench 303g, final hydration 59.7%, 6d target
4) Canadian flour: hydration 62%, ADY 0.6%, initial wt 295g, post bench 300g, final hydration 60.3%, 2d target
5) All Purpose flour: hydration 62%, ADY 0.6%, initial wt 292g, post bench 304g, final hydration 58.1%, 2d target
6) All Purpose flour: hydration 62%, ADY 0.3%, initial wt 296g, post bench 307g, final hydration 58.4%, 6d target

weighing
a) observation at weighing that % hydration changes are relatively small in gram change and challenge digital scales
b) in changing from 62 to 60% flour decreased 2g and water increased 3g on ~293g dough ball. even taking up to a normal x3 batch a range of 6g - 9g is quite tight margin leaving plenty room for error

2day dough
a) used 4,5 & 6 after 2day (they would have done 3dy). The dough was what I would call "proper" dough like I made and used in the day in the past
b) The yeast taste had not developed
c) as expected it was easy to pick out the Canadian floor which produced the best pizza. all 3 dough's were handleable and no trouble on the peel. The AP batches were much wetter to touch than the VSBF
d) the VSBF was much harder to stretch out having significant springback.

6day dough
a) none had "yeast" taste.
b) AP flour with lowest hydration stuck on peel, higher hydration but lower yeast did not
c) AP flour with lower yeast was not ready at day 6 and pizza was poor (no lift)

pics
6d batches on day 6 (2 pics both with batch 1 at bottom, batch 2 center, batch 3 top)
2d batches on day 2 (1 pic)
typ pizza

« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 05:38:11 AM by jerrym »

Offline scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6642
Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2011, 11:28:30 AM »
Jerry, thank you, that detail helps tremendously.

Forgive me if I've asked you this before, but how long are you letting the dough balls sit outside the fridge before forming?

You're not kneading or re-balling the dough after refrigeration, correct?

I'm sure you've seen this video, but just in case you haven't, this is how you want to form the skin (ignore the part about the rolling pin)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA</a>


How are you storing your yeast? In the fridge? Is the container airtight? How long have you had it for?

The reason I ask is that your yeast , at .6% is looking a little weak.  It just doesn't seem to have much umph.  For a 2 day dough, try 1%.

Kneading should always be a set amount of time and not dependent on the number of dough balls that you're making. In other words, you should knead 1 ball for the same amount of time that you knead 4.  If you're making a very large amount of dough, then you'll want to knead it for longer, but for 1-4 dough balls, it should be about the same.

I think it's safe to assume that the absorption value on the all purpose flour is much lower than 60%.  If you must use all purpose (I don't recommend it), try 55%-58% hydration. I really think the Canadian flour will be the clear winner, it's just a matter of getting the kneading time right so that it doesn't fight you when you're forming the skin.

Offline jerrym

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 87
  • Location: UK
Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2011, 02:12:14 PM »
scott123,

very much appreciating your help.

on the 6 batch i let them sit 3hrs out of the fridge c/w normal 2hrs. i can't say i noticed any real difference - temp is typ 14 to 19C.

correct - a defo no no kneading or re balling after refridgeration - just gently shaping. i am trying to master as per the video. i've got a bit to go. one thing i did notice is that i'm only using the semolina:00 flour on the peel not for shaping and will try this out.

the big thing for me from this trial is how the 2d batches were - what i call proper dough ie like in the video. the dough at 6d is gloopy and not what i know as dough.

yeast is in kitchen cupboard in air tight container and ~6 mths old. i think the reason for the reduced umph was down to the small batch size. i normally split the water 50:50 to dissolve the salt and yeast separately. the small 300g batch made this difficult to achieve.

my manual knead is not for a set time although the times i gave were as they turned out. i aim for the dough to no longer stick to the wrist joint part of my palm. i find it more efficient to knead a decent batch ie 1200g - the smaller batches don't lend themselves to the manual knead action - slippery customers but not literally. i don't feel i'm over kneading as i feel i can sense by touch/feel when the dough changes from the raw spoon mixed state to plyable. for info i use a 12min autolyse and never knead for more than 5 mins.

going fwd i've realized too that the all purpose flour needs to go down to say 55% hydration and work from there. i have been smitten with the bread flour though and have purchase a bag of standard bread flour to enable comparison of all 3 flours on the next batch aiming for 3d ferment.

i also intend to make 2 batches of tom sauce: 3day fridge and 24hr fridge. the 3 day is my norm but on the 6 off batches used 24hr down to operator error in planning ahead. like you i don't think the oregano in the fridge is the "yeast" taste i've lost on the 6 off batch.

it's put the cat among the pigeons for sure. what i should add though is that even though i'm calling my own pizza's they are in comparison to restarant quality not that far short and have already well exceeded my expectations. this is fine tuning. i do need to get the yeast taste back though.

having re watched the video on the forming i feel i can be quite a bit more heavy handed (with "proper" dough) as i'm probably being too cautious from using the 6d/Jeff Varasano type dough.


Offline jerrym

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 87
  • Location: UK
Re: Does long cold ferment produce wetter dough
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2011, 05:05:20 AM »
as a follow on i made 3 off batches with different flour (All Purpose, the Canadian very strong bread flour, standard/strong bread flour) targeted at 3day cold ferment. recipe was as used in the previous batches:

water 63% (post bench AP 57.5%, CVSBF 59.4%, SBF 58.7%), ADY 0.6%, thickness factor 0.11", salt 0.7%, typ 300g aiming for 11".

manual knead (5 mins) and method of prep was to my norm (measure out water as 2 off batches keeping salt and yeast separate).

observations:
1) all batches were not really ready on day 3
2) the SBF was easy to handle/shape and almost as good texture as the Canadian
3) AP stuck on the peel albeit slightly
4) used semolina/flour mix for shaping - marginal improvement handling/taste
5) all had some yeast taste (it's not the sauce)

going fwd:
1) adopting SBF as standard
2) will fine tune yeast % up-wards to give 3 day ready and assess yeast taste c/w 6day low yeast

well pleased with the experience. feel i've got a much better understanding of the trade off between higher hydrated dough and sticking on the peel - better with lower hydration.

many thanks to Scott123 for help - i'm now essentially sorted on decent quality pizza and see only minor fine tuning necessary.


 

pizzapan