Author Topic: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF  (Read 145488 times)

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Offline giotto

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #140 on: June 13, 2005, 12:06:36 AM »
Friz78:

Thanks so much for the information.  It is so good to hear that you have appealed to your taste buds at HOME.  I agree that Caputo is a cinch to knead... and handles very nicely in general without splits in the end.  I contribute its tempermental nature mostly to the oven, and I have to be careful with its hydration.  As you've found, a small amount of time in the oven can make all the difference in the world, and even placing it toward the bottom has proven advantageous. The 4.5 minutes is about what I am also finding to be right at 550F, which is a couple of minutes less than usual for me with a NY style for obvious reasons.

A16 has not indicated any use of pre-fermentation doughs (mother starters, etc.).  They certainly don't use it same day.  Personally, I prefer doughs that have fermented for 2-3 days, which seems to be Christophe's impression as well.  The amount of olive oil is pretty minimal, so I don't suspect it.  But the char marks from the wood makes all the differences in the world.  The first time I tasted the charred crust at Amici's NY in Mountain View, I sat for awhile disillusioned... I knew this was one taste that I would unlikely be able to touch.  But that's a personal preference.

Regarding coloration, it does appear you are getting some coloration.  You may try turning it in the 2nd half of your time, or try holding the pizza up in your peel for the last 15 or so seconds to the top burners-- you'll see their pizzaiolo does both as well.  He has the advantage of not losing heat; but in this little time, you should be okay.  Placing it toward the top worked for me.  I did put the broiler on the last minute though; but I'm not sure it's necessary.  Based on tests, it appears my broiler goes well above 550F-- in a minute, it may unnecessary.

If you have an opportunity to ask A16 for a dough the next time you are out, you should certainly try.  I can kick myself for not asking the last time I was there. We are only trying to prove the taste differences in our humble ovens.  They've been very open and for good reason.  It helps them become a standard.     
« Last Edit: June 13, 2005, 02:37:24 AM by giotto »


Offline giotto

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #141 on: June 13, 2005, 12:18:18 AM »
Pete-zza:

FYI:  If you check my past notes and other notes as well, A16 uses IDY.  If you find anything different on my part, I will correct it to IDY.  It was me who tried ADY on an occassion, after trying IDY.  Also, you may remember my update that I provided recently in detail after my last visit, explaining how they went about rehydation. You commented on them as well.  Friz78 looks like he followed it.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2005, 12:35:09 AM by giotto »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #142 on: June 13, 2005, 12:36:59 AM »
giotto,

It was the first post in this thread (page 1) where Friz said that A16 uses ADY. When I just went back to confirm this, I also saw that the way the water, yeast, salt and oil are combined is pretty much as I suggested in my last post. I know from our many past exchanges that you prefer ADY. When some of the early recipes we played around with called for ADY or even cake yeast, I would change them to IDY, my preferred yeast, and calculate the amounts to use. BTW, I recently picked up a bunch of packets of ADY for $0.29 each (the three-pack) when a local Albertson's closed down. If A16 does in fact use ADY, I will give it a try in a future effort, for the sake of autheticity.

Peter

Offline giotto

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #143 on: June 13, 2005, 01:12:37 AM »
Pete-zza:

They use and recommend IDY.     
« Last Edit: June 13, 2005, 02:38:21 AM by giotto »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #144 on: June 13, 2005, 03:54:19 PM »
Yesterday I made a 13-inch Neapolitan style pizza based on a Caputo 00 dough that had almost three days of refrigeration. The purpose of that pizza was largely experimental. I wanted to test several theories for achieving a crust that was flavorful, tender in the middle and crunchy and chewy at the rim, and with decent coloration, especially at the rim. While the results were generally satisfactory, I concluded that several changes are required to the recipe I used before I am satisfied. However, one of the aspects I tested was the use of dry dairy whey as a mechanism for getting better coloration of the crust. Dairy whey includes lactose, which is the only simple sugar that yeast doesn’t metabolize, but it contributes to crust color. Also, because lactose has a low sweetness factor, it contributes little in the way of sweetness to the crust. So, you in effect get color without the sweetness. For purposes of this test, I used 4% dairy whey by weight of flour. I bought the whey at Whole Foods, in the bulk bin section.

The photos below show the finished pizza. The pizza was baked on a preheated stone and moved under the broiler for a brief period. The browning of the crust was much greater than I usually get out of Caputo 00 doughs in a home oven, even when sugar is added and the same baking procedures are followed. So, for now, dairy whey looks promising as a way of getting more color. I plan to experiment further with the dairy whey to confirm my preliminary findings. I also have some other thoughts in mind for achieving similar effects on coloration. If they prove out, I will report my findings on the forum.

Peter

Offline friz78

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #145 on: June 13, 2005, 06:27:50 PM »
Pete,
Thanks for prompting me to clarify step #1 on my mixing technique.  After reading one of your recent posts on this thread, I started by dissolving the salt in the water for about 1 minute.  I then added the yeast and then, shortly thereafter added the olive oil.  Thanks for helping to clarify this step, as I have edited it on my post outlining mixing technique.
Friz

Offline friz78

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #146 on: June 13, 2005, 10:53:02 PM »
Pete,
By the way, your pizza looks fantastic.  Did the whey have any noticeable affect on the bottom portion of the crust?  I'm curious if it was more difficult to balance the timing of top and bottom doneness.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #147 on: June 14, 2005, 12:20:57 AM »
Friz,

The bottom was also darker than usual but not quite as much as the top, which went under the broiler element and was exposed to higher heat. In retrospect, I could have let the pizza bake a bit longer on the stone to darken the bottom of the crust further before moving the pizza under the broiler. The pizza also had a thicker crust than usual so it could have withstood a longer bake time on the stone.

The next time I make the dough, I plan to make several changes based on the results of the recent pizza. The dough will be thinner but it will still have whey, and I plan to also add a bit of sugar (or possibly a non-diastatic liquid barley malt), and I may also add some diastatic malt to see if I can get more residual sugar in the dough (after the needs of the yeast have been satisfied) in order to get added browning. The Caputo 00 has less damaged starch than our domestic flours, so I am looking into ways of increasing the damaged starch content of the Caputo 00 flour so that there is greater opportunity for the amylase enzymes in the flour and from the diastatic malt to produce more residual natural sugars in the dough for browning purposes. I have no idea if this will work, but I am going to give it a try. I may find that I improve one aspect but worsen another.

Peter

Offline JimBob

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #148 on: June 14, 2005, 04:46:50 PM »
JimBob:

Most excellent.  Appreciate your experiences on the excruciating questions below. This feedback on texture really helps people on the web distinguish what's important to them, and the stats help distinguish variations for those of us experimenting.
 
Texture:

Attributes that stood out, good or bad:
* crispy vs. brittle?
* light vs. went down like a lead weight?
* chewy, soft or airy?
* straight as a board vs. some elasticity?
* lasting impressions when you reached the outer edge?


Oven: 

- temp? Did you employ broiler or a blower?
- time approx?
- screen, stone, etc?
- bottom vs. top of oven?
- final color?

Crust:

- weight of dough vs. crust size?
- water hydration (below or above 57%)?
- oil & salt % or amounts relative to flour?
- other ingredients (e.g., sugar)?
- delayed fermentation via refrigeration?


Many Thanks.




Hey giotto,

This is the same dough I posted pics, details and recipe for earlier on in this thread so all I was really commenting on was my experience ruining a good pizza. lol  :D

I plan on increasing the hydration level on my next attempt and will happily post more pics and all the details to go with it.   :)
JimBob

Offline giotto

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #149 on: June 15, 2005, 03:35:20 AM »
Pete-zza:

I used to employ dry buttermilk at times when working with higher gluten flours, which contained lactose like most milk products.  When working with the buttermilk, I would cut my sugar requirements to compensate for the lactose.  Another byproduct was the slight softening of higher gluten flour with its milk fat.  In general, I was always happy with the results in color and texture.  I've been entertaining the possibility of using it with the Caputo flour; but did not want to soften the dough. 

The dairy whey certainly came through with the Caputo.  Does the dairy whey contain fat?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2005, 04:07:34 AM by giotto »


Offline giotto

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #150 on: June 15, 2005, 05:21:39 AM »
Well, I tried a same-day Caputo pizza dough today.  The taste seemed weak when compared to dough left in the refrigerator for up to 3 days.  I used 1/8 tsp Instant Dry Yeast for 14 oz flour, and made two 11.3 oz doughs using same percentages as stated earlier.  This time I was careful not to use all the flour when mixing in the bowl, so the 57% hydration would not be reduced with additional flour during hand kneading.

I left the dough out for 10 hours, and pushed it down as a precautionary measure a couple of times, even though the growth was not visible. 

I used my time wisely though.  First, a beer from Belgium to celebrate what finally felt like summer:
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/home-hoag.JPG)

In an effort to compensate for the lack of toppings that a Neapolitan pizza can handle, I started my 3 courses. 

Developing meatballs over 2 days, as discussed earlier by A16, really makes for a delicious course:
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/home-meatballs.JPG)

10 hours is a long time to wait for pizza.  But it's an even longer time to wait for Memphis style dry ribs, which I slowly smoked in wood as shown here.  I was thankful to see that my 2nd course fit on my plate:
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/home-ribs.JPG)

When it comes to a smoke ring... this is what I'm talking about:
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/home-rib.JPG)

Next the potatoes, which were drizzled in olive oil and seasoned with rosemary and thyme from my garden, and then roasted to meld together their tastes:
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/home-potatoes.JPG)

This onion, roasted bell pepper and fresh basil pizza was taken out about 30 seconds premature for me (4 1/2 minutes from a 550F preheated oven). This used grande; but Fresh looks better on this style:
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/home-pizza.JPG)

So I put it back in.  Unfortunately, in my infinite wisdom, I deleted two incredible pictures of the slices that represented the final outcome.  The cornicione or outer edge, looked like a bullet hole running through it.  And the color was quite good.  I followed a very short kneading time after the dough came together.  The texture was not as transparent as an earlier slice that I posted however:

This last picture is from an earlier batch.  I am showing it here to represent what happened when I incorporated 1 tsp of sugar to increase the color-- since this is a taste, I was not spending any time on toppings.
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/cornicione.JPG) 
« Last Edit: July 04, 2005, 02:31:51 AM by giotto »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #151 on: June 15, 2005, 09:53:33 AM »
giotto,

As best I can tell, dairy whey includes mostly lactose (around 70%) and with a little of everything else (protein, water, fat, etc.) The fat logs in at around 1%. I have read that there is a bakers grade dairy whey, but I have no idea whether the dairy whey I bought from Whole Foods is bakers grade. I know that in the case of regular dry milk there is either a protein or enzyme in it that adversely affects fermentation. So bakers and pizza operators use a high-heat bakers grade dry milk that has the offending protein or enzyme disabled. The same phenomenon may apply to regular dairy whey, if that is what I have. However, the crust of the pizza I made recently and showed at the earlier post clearly had more coloration than usual.

I might be inclined to use both sugar and dairy whey in a future experiment just to see it there is even more color.

As usual, your pizzas turned out great. As did the other goodies.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 30, 2005, 07:08:01 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline giotto

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #152 on: June 15, 2005, 01:55:18 PM »
Thanks Pete-zza:

I have used both dry buttermilk and sugar with NY style pizzas, 50/50.  Turned out great... crispy, and it tamed the structure a bit.  I will check for the baker's version.  But first I want to see how the refrig version comes out; so far, no bubbles with 1/8 tsp IDY, which I put in the refrig at 80F. 

Offline friz78

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #153 on: June 16, 2005, 12:46:42 AM »
Giotto,
The whole meal looks great.  I'm not sure what looks best.  Perhaps I'll need to give you a call on my next business trip to Frisco to find out which course I like best.   ;D  Then, the next night I'll treat at A16.

Pete,
What's your sense about the addition of whey to the crust?  Do you really believe that it achieves a marked difference on the final product in a home baking environment?  Your feedback is wonderful, but I sense you are hedging a bit on the effect of whey on the crust.  I can't wait to hear your candid feedback.  Are you sure the dough didn't take on any kind of "sweet" taste?  That would be a major turn off to me.  I prefer dough that is subtle and complimentary, not one that is dominant in taste and flavor.  I look forwar to your expanded feedback.
Friz

Offline giotto

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #154 on: June 16, 2005, 06:25:10 AM »
I realize that while I have diligently worked to develop succulent foods like authentic ribs in the past, my Neapolitan efforts have not reached the same level of satisfaction.  And even though their reasons have been echoed here and there in this thread, they need to be enlightened here.  First, let me mention what I don't believe.  I do not believe that it has anything to do with missing secrets.  In fact, just the opposite is true.  If you were to read a top-notch book on BBQ, such as SMOKESTACK LIGHTENING, you would not walk away with a knowledge of essential ingredients, such as Caputo Flour; nor would you have specific procedures at your disposal, like a hydration process.  Instead, you might GET the very people who once made-up the heart of the south...  people who are no longer around for us to speak to, and who's souls now haunt the very highways that once lifted the smoke from their wood ambers. 

SO then, why the difference? The answer is really quite apparent. BBQ is like many foods. Once you understood its underlying theme, you can follow the essential guidelines to your heart's content using home equipment.  And if you do decide to buy something, it's generally mobile and well within a couple hundred bucks.  That's just NOT the case with Neapolitan.  You follow the code of DOC, place it in your home oven, and you'll be eating something that strays so far from Neapolitan-style pizza, it's not funny-- and I mean, it's not funny.  Does that mean it will taste bad?  No.  It's just not Neapolitan.

HENCE, when we take on the charter to stay as close to guidelines as possible when making Neapolitan pizza, in essence we develop something that isn't even close to the real thing.  So let's talk about the real thing for a minute.

I have reviewed my fill of trip reports from American visitors who walked into Da Michele with a mis-informed illusion that their crust is akin to a crispy thin wafer that stands like a bill board in the shade.  And when they see the charred exterior, their suspicions remain poorly directed... until they finally touch the crown jewel.  Suddenly, they are blown away as they venture into a soft interior and almost bread-like structure that not only can be bent side-to-side; but it can even be rolled up over time, just as Reinhart describes in his experience in American Pie, and as I experienced here with A16:

(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/Neo-roll.jpg)

It's always interesting to read people's translation of Neapolitan style pizza, once they actually have it.  I read an opinion that compared Pizzeria Bianco's crust to "charred Pita bread."  I have to admit, this definitely caught my attention; because it has always looked like a cousin to Pita bread at times.  A person from NY talked about the bread-like structure of Da Michele and compared it to Piadine, which is basically a grilled and often unleavened bread.  The reality is, it's often not what people think.  And when we try to re-create it, we find the outside structure doesn't fit with the inside structure, and we start to create something that it isn't-- a crispy fritter. 

This thread shows an interesting comparison of Da Michele vs. Trianon:
(http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.egullet.com/u8259/i8524.jpg&imgrefurl=http://forums.egullet.org/index.php%3Fshowtopic%3D45154&h=400&w=300&sz=54&tbnid=kFNSYjCBYvwJ:&tbnh=120&tbnw=90&hl=en&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dda%2Bmichele%2Bpizza%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN)

Note the healthy side view of Trianon pizza:
(http://images.egullet.com/u8259/i8536.jpg)

SO now the next question-- why stick with Caputo?  Because it represents the one thing that we've all been able to attain-- an excellent taste.  And when we start to stray from same-day fermentation, we're able to create an even better taste.  In one case, the taste was preferred over Da Michele.  In the case of A16, I've been able to mirror its taste with 2 - 3 days of fermentation. 

Now we move to the final segment of this discussion.  Will we mess up the taste if we deviate from the standards? Well, it depends on the actual ingredients, and quite likely the manufacturer.  One concern was raised elsewhere concerning the use of olive oil in a Neapolitan pizza.  Hmmm, I've been using 1 tsp per pizza.  Italian Olive Oils can have a nutty flavor though, and the more you spend, the darker you go and the stronger the taste.  You have to match what you're trying to achieve.  Personally, I use Spanish EVO.  It's stronger than a weak re-creation of Olive Oil; but it stays within the realm of not ruining my cooking and 1 TBL isn't going to modify the taste of a pizza-- I've had plenty of practice in the past.  Although, if it does, I'll switch it out for a basic Trader Joe's Olive Oil version.  Regarding whey, I have used a buttermilk variation to tame a high gluten flour.  In NO WAY could it result in a sugar-like taste.  After all, 1 TBL was comparable to 3/4 tsp of sugar, which is comparable to 1 gram per quarter of a 15" pizza.  In return, you get a softer texture and much better color.

I've concluded that my choices are clear.  I can spin my wheels in an effort to remain within the constraints of traditional Neapolitan doughs, and end up with a pizza that is both difficult to gauge and unable to properly represent a respectable Neapolitan style texture. Or I can focus on the end result, using the Caputo flour, other ingredients, fermentation and stretching techniques, complemented by well known procedures to obtain color and a softer texture.  I'm not one to confuse effort with results, so time to modify. 

Fats that I've seen work very effectively professionally and personally, in their separate forms and in combination, to soften texture and provide some color in crust:
- Non-hydrogenated palm oil (organic vegetable shortening), Canola oil, EVO or just Olive Oil

Other means to bring out color in crust:
- Limited amounts of lactose from dry whey, dry buttermilk, and natural sugars coupled with fermentation techniques

Ways to create a lighter airy crust:
- Staging procedures, including the desire to separate the dough's top skin from its bottom skin by first placing dough into oven for 1 minute or until bubbles just start to formulate, then put on toppings, and place back in oven (note: the time it takes to put on the toppings back into oven, the heat lost will build up again).
- Follow stretching techniques revealed earlier in this thread
- Limit kneading; over kneading has its downsides. I still knead by hand after it comes together as suggested by A16.  I like the looks of improved mix: http://www.progressivebaker.com/class/section5.htm




« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 02:52:27 PM by giotto »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #155 on: June 16, 2005, 08:01:03 AM »
Friz: Yes I was hedging a bit and it was intentional. It isn't that I don't have confidence about dairy whey producing increased browning with low sweetness. Using whey for increased browning is well known within the baking industry. It is not often used, but it is well known, even in the context of pizza dough and its use by professional pizza operators. In my case, I was using a whey purchased from Whole Foods. Consequently, I have no idea if it is baker's grade, as is usually recommended by knowledgeable people like Tom Lehmann.

The other thing I did with my recent dough was to make it thicker, along the lines of a NY style thickness. This was another "mini-experiment" to try to get increased tenderness in the crumb. But maybe this affected the baking and browning of the crust, although my recollection is that the total bake time was similar to past efforts and the top crust did brown faster than usual when the pizza was placed below the broiler element in the usual manner. As for the sweetness, there was no discernible increase in sweetness. I am very sensitive to sugar, not only in a pizza crust but in just about any food, and I did not detect any increase from normal levels in the crust of the pizza I made.
I plan to go back to a more normal thickness and to use whey again to confirm my previous results. If it works again, then it may not matter whether it is bakers grade or not.

giotto: I agree with you in what you stated in your last post. There's not much point to fretting about whether we can achieve a truly authentic Neapolitan pizza in a home oven. This is old news anyway, since we have known from post 1 on this thread that that goal is for all intents and purposes unattainable. But we shouldn't let that stop us from making the best Neapolitan style pizzas possible in our home ovens. If it is by using dry buttermilk, dairy whey, sugar, oil, or well designed fermentation, kneading and shaping techniques, then so be it. This is the sandbox we will play in. And I remain confident in our collective talents and abilities to achieve the objective. Besides, we can have a lot of fun trying.

That said, my personal objective is to be able to use the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour to make 1) an 8-12 hour, same-day (i.e., no overnight), room-temperature fermented dough using commercial yeast, 2) a 12-24 hour, room-temperature fermented dough using a natural preferment (along the lines advocated by pizzanapoletana), 3) a multi-day, refrigerated dough using either commercial yeast or a natural preferment, and 4) a dough that can be made and used to make a pizza within a total of 1-2 hours, as I have done with the Bel Aria brand of 00 flour.

I was also amused, giotto, by your discussion of how different people have reacted to DaMichele's pizzas. I have read the same thing about Mario Batali's pizzas at his Otto's pizzeria in NYC. His pizzas are variously described by different people as being Roman, Neapolitan, cracker-like, soft, thin, and not-so-thin--with yeas and nays all over the satisfaction spectrum.  But I give the man credit for daring to be different--his pizzas are griddle-cooked for one thing. He could have taken the easy way out and just gotten a wood fired oven and loudly proclaimed the authenticity of his pizzas all over the place.

Peter
« Last Edit: June 16, 2005, 09:00:18 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline scott r

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #156 on: June 16, 2005, 02:03:04 PM »
I am the one that had a weird tasting caputo pie because of olive oil.  I was having trouble with my crust just not quite having enough softness.  I had added 6% oil. way too much.  Also, I was using a strong cheap oil from the grocery store because I was out of my higher end stuff that tastes much better.  One thing is for sure, it definitely softened up my crust!
 
After that experiment I made a higher hydration version of the a16 copycat crust on this thread, got my oven up even hotter, and mixed a little longer.  The pies from this batch had the best texture of any Caputo pies I have made, and this smaller amount of oil tasted great.  This recipe was pretty much the same as the one I had been using up until this point, but with oil added.  I don't know if it was the longer kneading time (I doubt this after what I have read here), the small amount of oil, or the hotter oven, but now I am much happier with the texture.
 
I have heard that too short of a knead time can lead to a slightly tough crust, and this is the problem I was having.  My electrolx mixer is very gentle on the dough.  I am wondering if anyone else has found that underkneading can lead to a tough crust?  It doesn't really make sense to me after reading this thread, and thinking about how gentle hand kneading is.

Offline JimBob

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #157 on: June 16, 2005, 02:40:14 PM »
I thought that overkneeding caused tough crust???  ???
JimBob

Offline scott r

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #158 on: June 16, 2005, 03:51:17 PM »
yes, I do know for sure that overkneading does cause a crust, but I have read elseware on this forum that underkneading can too.  Just wondering if anyone has ever experienced this?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #159 on: June 16, 2005, 10:36:26 PM »
Tonight I made a 24-hour room-temperature fermented Caputo 00 dough based on a modified pizzanapoletana recipe and incorporating a natural preferment and dairy whey in the dough. For those interested in the details, they are presented in Reply #91 at the Caputo 00 thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,986.new.html#new. For those interested in the effects of the dairy whey on the crust coloration, I have presented a photo of the finished pizza below. Today's results are convincing enough to prompt me to use the dairy whey in just about all future Caputo 00 doughs. Today's dough used 2% dairy whey by weight of flour, as compared with 4% in the last dough I made. The degree of browning seems to be directly proportional to that amount of whey used. As discussed at the Caputo 00 thread, the last two doughs that used the dairy whey, including today's, had better dough handing qualities than I have been getting out of Caputo 00 doughs. Whether it is just a coincidence or something else that is responsible, I can't say at this time. But the matter bears watching and confirmation.

Peter