Author Topic: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF (Read 124034 times)

Pete-zza · « **Reply #20 on:** May 04, 2005, 09:51:05 PM »

Marco,

As a followup to Friz's questions, can you tell us why the 00 dough recipes call for so much salt (around 2.8% by weight of flour)? I wouldn't think it is because of taste only but wondered whether it is related to protease enzyme activity? You have written before about how the protease enzyme activity leads to softening of the gluten and can result in an overly soft dough. If so, the problem would seem to be more severe with a room temperature fermented dough, as is common with 00 doughs, than with a retarded dough. I have read that salt slows down the protease activity, and thought that that might be the reason for the large amount of salt, along with generally slowing down the fermentation process.

Peter

pizzanapoletana · « **Reply #21 on:** May 05, 2005, 08:46:33 AM »

Peter

the producer (Caputo) recommends an ideal hydration of 56% and I can confirm from my experience that below that it is too dry. However in an home oven setting a too wet dough could produce the inverse effect and resulting in a cracker-type pizza after the longer baking.

Regarding the oil, both could be correct, but if the crumb had also a yellowish color, that would be due to the oil in the dough.

I am sure you know that the salt help to develop a stronger and elastic gluten. Acrobatic dough is made indeed with a large amount of salt. Also one of the oldest food preservation techniques was the salt. In fact it has a huge effect on slowing down the protease activity. Historically, however was used for Gluten development, slowing down the fermentation and taste off course.
I try to keep the room temperature were the dough ferment, between 18 and 20 degree Celsius. If the temperature is higher, I have also used large amount of salt, up to 60g per liter of water
The negative side is that with 60g per liter, when the dough cools down, can be a bit gummy... To avoid this, one could add the salt at the end of mixing.

PizzaSuperFreak · « **Reply #22 on:** May 05, 2005, 09:22:13 AM »

hey friz78, etal.

i was reading Ed Levine's book 'Pizza: A Slice of Heaven', which is excellent by the way, and he fetures A16 as one of the premier pizza joints in the US. Certainly in SF.

by the way, that book seems like it was written by the collective knowledge here at pizzamaking.com. it's uncanny.

- PSF

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0789312050/qid=1115299176/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-4493213-5797544

friz78 · « **Reply #23 on:** May 05, 2005, 10:16:56 AM »

SuperFreak,
Thanks for the heads up on Ed Levine's endorsement of A16. Atleast I'm not the only one who feels strongly about the quality of this pizza. Frankly, I'm shocked it has not received more national attention to date. I used to live in NYC and I still visit there several times a year and I haven't experienced any pizza in NY in the past 5 years that is even close to A16. Hopefully, we can re-engineer the A16 pizza successfully and we'll all be able to replicate this great pizza at home in the near future.
Friz

scott r · « **Reply #24 on:** May 05, 2005, 02:02:20 PM »

pizzanapoletana, what would you consider to be the lowest acceptable oven temperature (preferrably top and bottom) to achieve an authentic neapolitan crust?

friz78 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 08, 2005, 12:19:22 AM »

Thursday afternoon my first shipment of Caputo 00 pizza flour arrived at my house. That same evening, I set out to create some dough to begin the initial A16 experiment. I made SIX doughs on Thursday night and, per the feedback from the pizzaolo at A16, I planned for a 48 hour refrigeration/retardation. As it turned out, I couldn't quite wait for the full 48 hour rise, and I made three pizzas already. The earliest rise was just under 24 hours and then one at 24 hours and then one at 32 hours.

Allow me to say that, with my first experience of Caputo flour, I am totally hooked on this flour and the pizzas it produces. I simply cannot say enough good things about this flour. It was easy to handle, incredibly responsive, and flavorful as all get out. Did I re-create A16? No. But every pizza that I produced was delicious in flavor, texture, crisp and chew. The only thing that was quite evident was the limitations of each pizza based on baking in my home oven, as opposed to a high heat source such as a brick oven. I now have joined the ranks of those who are strongly considering and researching a home brick oven, probably for my backyard.

In my initial attempt with the Caputo flour, I chose to use the pizzanapalatano recipe that Peter posted earlier in this thread, with a few modifications. There was no autolyse used in the mixing process. I made three doughs with 60% hydration and then three other doughs with 58% hydration. I also played with the yeast content and increased the yeast in the 58% hydration doughs significantly. I will report in more depth tomorrow night on the differences in these recipes but, in the short run, I would say that the differences in the pizzas at this point has been very minimal. They've all been delicious with great taste and texture characteristics. Perhaps the crisp and chew has varied slightly with each pizza/recipe, but only minimally so. Folks, if you haven't experimented with Caputo flour yet and you have a taste for Neapolitan pizza, you really need to make the jump and experience the pizzas that this flour is capable of producing. My wife has requested that I discontinue making NY style pizzas entirely in favor of Caputo based Neapolitan pizza. This is after only three pizzas! It's just great flour in every respect.

More details to follow tomorrow. In the meantime, attached are some pictures of one of the Caputo pizzas that I made today. It has a 60% hydration and a minimal amount of yeast and olive oil. No olive oil in the recipe and only dusted lightly with olive oil before the refrigeratin/retardation process began. More to follow tomorrow.
Friz

friz78 · « **Reply #26 on:** May 08, 2005, 12:22:41 AM »

dough ball

friz78 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 08, 2005, 12:28:54 AM »

Caputo pic

friz78 · « **Reply #28 on:** May 08, 2005, 12:30:30 AM »

pic 3

friz78 · « **Reply #29 on:** May 08, 2005, 12:32:13 AM »

pic 4

friz78 · « **Reply #30 on:** May 08, 2005, 12:35:12 AM »

pic 5

friz78 · « **Reply #31 on:** May 08, 2005, 12:37:06 AM »

pic 6

friz78 · « **Reply #32 on:** May 08, 2005, 12:39:46 AM »

pic 6

abatardi · « **Reply #33 on:** May 08, 2005, 02:52:50 AM »

Has anyone compared real Caputo 00 to the King Arthur 00 clone? I have the KA clone but wasn't very impressed with it the couple of times I used it and have switched back to KA Bread / KASL. I was going to pick up a bag of the Caputo at one point but if it's not drastically different than the KA clone I don't want to buy a 55# bag of it.

- Aaron

Pete-zza · « **Reply #34 on:** May 08, 2005, 09:34:27 AM »

Friz,

I'd say you did damn well. I can't wait to hear the details, especially the characteristics of the crusts. Now you have a baseline against which to compare the later efforts using a lot more oil, etc.

Aaron,

Many of us have tried the KA00 but it is just not the same as the Caputo 00. The KA00 is a domestic clone of the Italian 00 flours with a protein level of 8.5%. The Caputo 00 is a specially crafted 00 flour with 11.5-12.5% protein. They behave differently in recipes, even in the same recipe (which is true of 00 flours in general), and will produce different results. There could well be some recipes out there where one would prefer the KA00 but I haven't found them yet myself. I haven't done a side by side test, but maybe one of our members has and can report the results to us.

Peter

friz78 · « **Reply #35 on:** May 08, 2005, 11:04:32 AM »

Aaron,
I agree with Peter on this - there is no comparison between KA and Caputo 00. It's not even in the same ball park. The only way you will really understand what we are talking about is to get yourself some Caputo flour and you will then understand completely, believe me.
Friz

abatardi · « **Reply #36 on:** May 08, 2005, 01:53:39 PM »

Sounds good, that's what I wanted to hear. I was hoping they weren't in the same ballpark as if they were I couldn't understand what all the fuss was about

I guess I'll try to pick some up at some point and try and find a location in the apartment where my girlfriend won't see it (she can't understand why I have 4-5 different kinds of flour already)...

- Aaron

friz78 · « **Reply #37 on:** May 09, 2005, 09:25:30 PM »

As follow up to my post and pictures the other day, I would like to further detail my pizzamaking experiment with Caputo flour. On Sunday, I made two more pizza and I have attached pictures below for everyone's review. I used the Pizzanapaletana recipe noted earlier in this thread by Pete-zza, with a few subtle modifications. I thought this would be a good starting point in attempting to re-engineer A16 pizza while also getting familiar with the use of Caputo flour. Here was the recipe for each pizza:

Pizza #1:

Caputo pizzeria flour, 6.33 oz. (100%)
Water, 3.85 oz. (58%)
Sea salt, 0.17 oz. (7/8 t.) (2.73%)
IDY, 0.1 oz. (a couple of small pinches between the thumb and forefinger) (0.05 oz.)

In this experiment, I added double the amount of yeast that was recommended in Marco's recipe in an attempt to learn the effect it would have on the pizza. I also decreased the hydration level to 58%. The results were very good, but not quite as good as Pizza #2, which I will discuss in more detail next. This pizza was very tasty and had good crisp. I would say that it fell short in the chew department, as the chew was somewhat "flat" and not as responsive as Pizza #2. This pizza certainly passed the taste test with the family, but when compared to the other recipe, I would say it was a slight notch below, but just barely so.

Pizza #2 was a smash hit and here was the recipe:

Flour, Caputo pizzeria flour, 6.33 oz. (100%)
Water, 3.85 oz. (60.8%)
Sea salt, 0.17 oz. (7/8 t.) (2.73%)
IDY, 0.05 oz.
1 teaspoon extra virgin olive oil

I did not see much impact that the olive oil had on the pizza. Even in the browning department, I found that of all five of the Caputo pizzas I made this weekend, the greatest impact that olive oil had was on those pizzas that I coated with olive oil AFTER mixing (olive oil sprinkled on top of the completed dough ball). Indeed the coating of the dough ball seemed to very much enhance and encourage browning in a very positive way. This is particularly evidenced in the pictures I posted two days ago earlier in this thread. Based on the variations of this recipe, I am convinced that a fairly liberal coating of extra virgin olive oil on the finished dough ball did a wonderful job of encouraging browning without overtaking the flavor of the dough. With regard to oil in the recipe, I'm not sure it had much effect on the outcome, especially when compared to other factors like hydration % and yeast amount. Nonetheless, this pizza was incredible tasty and had great texture and flavor characteristics. It handled beautifully while forming the peel and transferred well from the peel to the stone.

One thing that was evident with all five pizzas I made this week - they were all delicious and they had great dough characteristics. At the end of the day, I found myself saying, "The only thing that would make this pizza any better would be about 300-400 more degrees of heat." There's no doubt in my mind that that is the only factor missing from having a dough that more closely resembles that of a restaurant like A16. Clearly, the higher heat and subsequent shorter cooking time, would give the pizza a bit more spring in the rim and a bit more of a smoky flavor. Without the extra heat though, I'm not sure anything else can be done to achieve the aforementioned characteristics. The good news is that I am sold on Caputo flour and Neapolitan style pizza. It is simply fantastic - the best I have created at home by a wide margin. Of course, this is my taste and that of my wife, and our tastes might not be the same as others on the forum. Everyone needs to try the Caputo product for themselves to determine your individual taste preference.

Where do we go from here? I'm not really sure. I think I will try this recipe again and this time use an autolyse to enhance oven spring a bit more. I'm not sure if this will really make a difference but it's worth a shot. If anyone else has recommendations for experimentation with this recipe I would love to hear your feedback. In the meantime, I would strongly recommend pizzanapoletana's recipe for anyone looking to create an authentic Neapolitan pizza with Caputo flour - you WON'T be disappointed.
Friz

friz78 · « **Reply #38 on:** May 09, 2005, 09:31:56 PM »

pizza #1

pftaylor · « **Reply #39 on:** May 09, 2005, 09:35:53 PM »

friz78,
I truly enjoy reading your posts. You are quite the pizza maker. It seems you make several variations at once to determine a winner much like Pizza Idol. I find myself rooting for one version or another. Good fun.

I too have found that Caputo Pizzeria 00 flour produces a fantastic tasting pie. Much more flavorful than KASL. Although it took me a lot longer than yourself to finally figure that out. The Pizza Sophia recipe is oddly similiar to what pizzanapoletana recommended originally even though it grew out of Pizza Raquel which was based on a recommendation by ilpizzaiolo. For me, the mixing and stretching procedures made all the difference in the world.