Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

jeff V is correct about the amount of ADY. I originally thought that 1/4 ounce of yeast (a full packet) was intended for the A16 recipe but that seemed far too much for the amount of flour (4 cups) called for in the recipe. So, yesterday, while awaiting a reply from Jay, I went to amazon.com at http://www.amazon.com/A16-Food-Wine-Nate-Appleman/dp/1580089070/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221226591&sr=8-1 and used the "Inside this Book" search feature on that page. I used the keyword "yeast" for search purposes and found the entire A16 dough recipe and instructions (at page 117). To the authors' credit, they specify 1/4 teaspoon of ADY, not a much larger quantity that is usually recommended for home pizza makers to ensure success with the rise of the dough. As it turns out, the recipe is not much different than the recipe that was given to the forum some time ago by member pieguy, as I restated it at Reply 59 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg12531.html#msg12531. I do not know how much 4 cups of Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour weighs, or what measurement method the authors use to measure out the flour volumetrically, but using 4 cups of the Caputo 00 Extra Blu flour measured out textbook style, it appears that pieguy's recipe uses a bit more yeast percentage-wise than the A16 recipe. However, if one were to use ADY instead of IDY and adjust the amount of yeast in pieguy's recipe for a three-day fermentation rather than the two-day fermentation originally recited by pieguy, the two recipes would be even closer.

The biggest difference between the two recipes that I can see is in the hydration. I personally believe that 1 1/2 cups of water for 4 cups of flour is too much for a home oven application (using the Caputo Extra Blu 00 flour for my calculations). Even the authors suggest using less water (and more oil) to those not used to handling pizza dough. The A16 recipe also indicates that the amount of dough made using that recipe produces four dough balls for making pizzas that are 10"-12" in diameter. Based on my experience, I believe that users with standard home ovens should use the 10" size, which will produce a thicker crust that works better in a home oven. I would also recommend a hydration percent that is closer to that recommended by pieguy. Otherwise, there may be a tendency to bake the pizza too long to get decent crust browning and end up with a more cracker-like crust. However, the only way to tell for sure is for someone to try the A16 recipe and report back on the results. It would also help in this regard to know how much 4 cups of the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour actually weighs, using the textbook method of flour measurement as defined, for example, at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397/topicseen.html#msg56397. Knowing the answer to that question, we should be able to come up with a baker's percent version of the A16 recipe for further evaluation. When I do flour weighings, I usually do about a dozen or more individual weighings (e.g., using a standard metal one-cup straight-sided measuring cup) and average out the weights.

Peter

[Essen1]

Peter,

I didn't question whether Jeff's amount of yeast was accurate. He posted what the books said, or says. What I meant was that A16 probably modified the recipe and perhaps published a stripped-down version of their original formula because as you know, formulas and recipes from great pizza joints are sometimes closely guarded and not available to the public.

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

Most commercial recipes that are converted in cookbooks for home use tend to call for a lot more yeast than is actually used in the commercial application. This is sometimes done to disguise the original recipe but it is also often done to be sure that the home pizza maker will succeed with the recipe, especially in terms of getting a dough that rises well and quickly. The authors of the A16 book did not dramatically increase the amount of yeast for purposes of the cookbook. This leads me to believe that the recipe in the A16 cookbook is either the one actually used by A16, but scaled down to a small dough batch size, or a version that is pretty close to the original. Moreover, the high hydration of the book's dough formulation is consistent with the use of a very high temperature oven, as is apparently used in the A16 restaurant itself. I do not personally think that using all-purpose flour in the recipe instead of Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour will produce results comparable to the 00 flour, but that is another cookbook change that authors often engage in when they feel that users are unlikely to have access to or seek out 00 flour. Peter Reinhart did the same thing with his pizza cookbook, American Pie, and Pamela Sheldon Johns came up with an all-purpose/pastry flour blend for her Neapolitan style pizza dough in her cookbook Pizza Napoletana! Both authors were intimately familiar with the 00 flour when they wrote their books.

Peter

[Essen1]

If your hunch proves to be right, why didn't they also adjust the hydration at the same time, since it's obviously intended for home use? 

[Pete-zza]

If your hunch proves to be right, why didn't they also adjust the hydration at the same time, since it's obviously intended for home use? 

Mike,

As users of a very high temperature oven, they perhaps didn't/don't know that the high hydrations will not work well in a standard home oven environment. Until pizzanapoletana (Marco) told us (e.g., at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg11838/topicseen.html#msg11838), the members of the forum were generally unaware of the effects of using a high hydration 00 dough in a home oven setting.  Marco also instructed us to use some oil in the dough (e.g., see Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8702.html#msg8702). The combination of using a modest hydration and some oil in the dough led to the achievement for many of a reasonably decent Neapolitan style pizza in a standard home oven. I also found that using a skin with some thickness to it helped produce an even better finished product. These are the kinds of things you learn in a home oven environment rather than in a very high temperature commercial oven environment.

Peter

[Essen1]

they perhaps didn't/don't know that the high hydrations will not work well in a standard home oven environment.

Peter,

I could imagine Nate Appleman knows how to tweak a dough recipe for home use. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to discredit the folks at A16, not at all. I just have a tough time believing that they would publish their immensely popular pizza dough recipe and give their competition a head start/heads up at the same time.

Like you said, some parts of the recipe could be distorted on purpose, who knows.

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

No doubt there are facets of a commercial pizza making operation that do not translate into a home version of a commercial dough recipe, especially one that is recited volumetrically and intended to be practiced with a standard home stand mixer and a standard home oven. When Christophe Halle was in charge of the pizza activities at A16, we got a pretty good idea as to how the pizzas were then made at A16. When he left and Nate Appleman came on board, it is quite possible that he made changes to both the A16 Caputo 00 dough formulation and the way that the dough is prepared and managed. Yet, from what I can tell, the A16 dough recipe in the A16 cookbook is quite similar to the pieguy recipe referenced earlier once the pieguy recipe is adjusted to use ADY rather than IDY and to extend the fermentation window. I will know a bit better on the hydration aspects if someone can provide a weight of 4 cups of Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour measured out using the textbook method of flour measurement.

After re-reading the A16 recipe and instructions, which I think are well written and generally well thought out, I do not see anything that reflects an acknowledgment or recognition of the effects of a high hydration Caputo 00 dough on the results of baking such a dough in a standard home oven. In my opinion, that is a very important piece of information for a home pizza maker to know if a standard home oven is to be used to bake the pizza.

Peter 

[Pizza Rustica]

Peter,

I just happened to be making pizza's last night for a party today and measured out the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. Based upon the Textbook measurement you reference I came up with an average weight of approx. 141g per cup or 564g for 4 cups.

[Pete-zza]

Peter,

I just happened to be making pizza's last night for a party today and measured out the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. Based upon the Textbook measurement you reference I came up with an average weight of approx. 141g per cup or 564g for 4 cups.

Russ,

Thank you very much for that information. Interestingly, the weight you came up with for 4 cups of the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour is not much greater than what I came up with for 4 cups of the Caputo Extra Blu 00 flour using November's Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://tools.foodsim.com/. I asked specifically for the Textbook method of flour measurement but it is possible that another method is used by the authors of the A16 cookbook. I will have more on this later.

I took your flour weight and, using the expanded pizza dough calculator at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I entered the data for the other ingredients to come up with the dough formulation posted below. For purposes of that dough formulation, I assumed that a cup of water weighs 8.2 ounces. This is less than the standard weight of 8.345 ounces for a cup, but in my experience, people tend to come closer to 8.2 ounces per cup than the more accurate number.

A16 Dough Formulation (Textbook Version)

Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour (100%): Water (61.8271%): ADY (0.16755%): Salt (1.97922%): Extra Virgin Olive Oil (1.59574%): Total (165.56961%):

564 g  |  19.89 oz | 1.24 lbs (4 c.) 348.7 g  |  12.3 oz | 0.77 lbs (1 1/2 c.) 0.94 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp 11.16 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp 9 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp 933.81 g | 32.94 oz | 2.06 lbs | TF = N/A

If the above data is correct, then a single dough ball would weigh about 8.24 ounces (32.94/4). On that basis, for a 10" pizza size, the thickness factor would be about 0.105. For a 12" size, the corresponding thickness factor would be about 0.073. Using a standard home oven, I would recommend using the 10" pizza size. If I had a very high temperature oven, I would use the 12" size.

As noted above, it is quite possible that the authors of the A16 cookbook are using a different method for measuring out the flour. In my experience, most people who do not use the Textbook method of flour measurement tend to use the Dip or Shake methods. These methods are defined at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397/topicseen.html#msg56397. Using the Caputo Extra Blu 00 flour as a proxy, I will use November's Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator to try to come up with a dough formulation for the A16 recipe using the Dip or Shake method of flour measurement.

Thanks again.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Following up on my last post, I did a simple extrapolation of the numbers for the Caputo 00 Extra Blu flour to try to come up with a version of the A16 dough formulation using either the Dip or Shake method of flour measurement. I got the following:

A16 Dough Formulation (Dip or Shake Version)

Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour (100%): Water (57.752%): ADY (0.1565%): Salt (1.84876%): Extra Virgin Olive Oil (1.49057%): Total (161.24783%):

603.8 g  |  21.3 oz | 1.33 lbs (4 c.) 348.71 g  |  12.3 oz | 0.77 lbs (1 1/2 c.) 0.94 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp 11.16 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp 9 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp 973.61 g | 34.34 oz | 2.15 lbs | TF = N/A

For the above version, a dough ball would weigh about 8.59 oz. (34.34/4). For the 10" size, the thickness factor would be about 0.109; for the 12" size, it would be about 0.076.

As between the two versions of the A16 dough formulation that I prepared, I would say that the version posted above in this post looks closer to what I would expect for the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, especially in terms of the hydration value. The two thickness factors also look to be in line with the values for a home application (10" = 0.109) and a high-temperature application (12" = 0.076).

Maybe someone can try both versions of the A16 dough formulation and report back on the results.

Peter

[Essen1]

Peter,

Interesting observations. I'll make the dough you just posted and use the A16 three-day fermentation process and give it a shot with the LBE.

I'll report back on it.

Also, Nate Appleman mentioned the use of older dough, that is added to a new batch in Naples (Da Michele?). I could imagine that he wouldn't leave such a big factor out of his dough making process.

[November]

I just happened to be making pizza's last night for a party today and measured out the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. Based upon the Textbook measurement you reference I came up with an average weight of approx. 141g per cup or 564g for 4 cups.

Russ,

What is the depth of your 1-cup measuring cup?

- red.november

[Pete-zza]

Also, Nate Appleman mentioned the use of older dough, that is added to a new batch in Naples (Da Michele?). I could imagine that he wouldn't leave such a big factor out of his dough making process.

Mike,

The description in the A16 book of the da Michele dough making process (adding a bit of older, fermented dough to each fresh batch) suggests the "old dough" method, which is an indirect method rather than a direct method (see Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8679/topicseen.html#msg8679). It has long been my understanding from what Marco has said that da Michele uses a natural yeast culture, and not in preferment quantities. However, from a post by member David at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3732.msg34600/topicseen.html#msg34600, it is possible that the dough preparation methods at da Michele may have changed.

If A16 is using the old dough method, then that is something that could have been left out in coming up with the A16 recipe for the cookbook. In fact, the writeup in the A16 cookbook mentions that a long fermentation produces a "similar effect" to the old dough method. The small amount of yeast plays into that theme by allowing the dough to ferment for a long time and produce more flavor by-products of fermentation.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

In re-reading the A16 recipe, I noticed for the first time that the heading of the recipe says that it makes four 9-to-10 inch pizzas. However, as previously noted, the instructions say to stretch the dough to 10"-12".  Possibly the numbers reflect some shrinkage in the finished pizzas although usually pizza operators don't quote pizza size by the finished baked pizza size. I could not find any reference at the A16 website of their pizza size, but my recollection from other reading is that it is 12".

Peter

[Essen1]

Peter,

Here's a blog from a guy from Montreal, checking out the SF food scene. Amongst others, he also went to A16 but wasn't too thrilled about the pizza, apparently.

Anyway, here's a pic of A16's pie and the accompanying link. The size looks like a 12" to me.

http://www.montrealfoodie.com/san-francisco-napa-and-sonoma/

[Essen1]

Peter,

Question for you:

I'm about to make a new batch, using your latest A16 dough formula. However, I have a piece of older, nicely fermented dough from an earlier batch and would like to incorporate it into the new batch. How do I go about calculating it with the new formula?

Edit: I forgot to mention that the weight of the fermented dough is 168 gr.

[Pete-zza]

Peter,

Question for you:

I'm about to make a new batch, using your latest A16 dough formula. However, I have a piece of older, nicely fermented dough from an earlier batch and would like to incorporate it into the new batch. How do I go about calculating it with the new formula?

Edit: I forgot to mention that the weight of the fermented dough is 168 gr.

Mike,

I think I would just replace about 15-20% of the formula flour (603.8 grams) with the "old dough", although in the "bread" world the amount can be double that. You could just add the piece of old dough to your fresh batch made in accordance with the A16 dough formulation but that will increase the total weight of the dough. Of course, you can always scale the finished dough batch back to the desired weight so that your pizza size is pretty much unchanged. Alternatively, you could put aside some of the new dough (with the piece of old dough) to be used as old dough for the next batch.

There may be a slight change in the hydration of the finished dough if the hydration of the old dough is different than what is called for in the A16 dough formulation, but I don't think the change will be material. Also, the total effective yeast quantity for the finished dough may also decline slightly if the yeast in the old dough is spent, or nearly so. You could increase the amount of yeast a bit to compensate, or you might increase the fermentation period of the dough a bit.

If you like the results, next time it might be possible to use the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html to come up with more precise numbers even though the tool was not designed to work with old doughs as such.

Peter

[Essen1]

Peter,

Thanks for the suggestions. I was at first thinking to simply subtract the 168gr from the total of the new batch and then save a piece of dough from the new batch and let it ferment again for a future dough.

Your suggestion of increasing the yeast amount makes sense. I was thinking to increase the amount to 0.2% but that might be a bit too much, and the hydration to 60%.

[Pete-zza]

Thanks for the suggestions. I was at first thinking to simply subtract the 168gr from the total of the new batch and then save a piece of dough from the new batch and let it ferment again for a future dough.

Mike,

You could do that but that would increase the old dough to almost 28% of the formula flour. I don't know what effect that will have on the dough or finished crust. My practice with preferments is to start with around 15-20% of the formula flour.

Peter

[Essen1]

Peter,

Neither do I know how it'll turn out but it might be worth a shot.

So you think adding 25gr/35gr(rounded up) to the dough would be better than the entire 168gr?