Author Topic: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF  (Read 152968 times)

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #325 on: September 12, 2008, 10:40:17 PM »
Quote
they perhaps didn't/don't know that the high hydrations will not work well in a standard home oven environment.

Peter,

I could imagine Nate Appleman knows how to tweak a dough recipe for home use. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to discredit the folks at A16, not at all. I just have a tough time believing that they would publish their immensely popular pizza dough recipe and give their competition a head start/heads up at the same time.

Like you said, some parts of the recipe could be distorted on purpose, who knows.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 11:02:45 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #326 on: September 13, 2008, 08:39:43 AM »
Mike,

No doubt there are facets of a commercial pizza making operation that do not translate into a home version of a commercial dough recipe, especially one that is recited volumetrically and intended to be practiced with a standard home stand mixer and a standard home oven. When Christophe Halle was in charge of the pizza activities at A16, we got a pretty good idea as to how the pizzas were then made at A16. When he left and Nate Appleman came on board, it is quite possible that he made changes to both the A16 Caputo 00 dough formulation and the way that the dough is prepared and managed. Yet, from what I can tell, the A16 dough recipe in the A16 cookbook is quite similar to the pieguy recipe referenced earlier once the pieguy recipe is adjusted to use ADY rather than IDY and to extend the fermentation window. I will know a bit better on the hydration aspects if someone can provide a weight of 4 cups of Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour measured out using the textbook method of flour measurement.

After re-reading the A16 recipe and instructions, which I think are well written and generally well thought out, I do not see anything that reflects an acknowledgment or recognition of the effects of a high hydration Caputo 00 dough on the results of baking such a dough in a standard home oven. In my opinion, that is a very important piece of information for a home pizza maker to know if a standard home oven is to be used to bake the pizza.

Peter 

Offline Pizza Rustica

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #327 on: September 13, 2008, 11:45:04 AM »
Peter,

I just happened to be making pizza's last night for a party today and measured out the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. Based upon the Textbook measurement you reference I came up with an average weight of approx. 141g per cup or 564g for 4 cups.
Russ

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #328 on: September 13, 2008, 12:46:45 PM »
Peter,

I just happened to be making pizza's last night for a party today and measured out the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. Based upon the Textbook measurement you reference I came up with an average weight of approx. 141g per cup or 564g for 4 cups.

Russ,

Thank you very much for that information. Interestingly, the weight you came up with for 4 cups of the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour is not much greater than what I came up with for 4 cups of the Caputo Extra Blu 00 flour using November's Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/. I asked specifically for the Textbook method of flour measurement but it is possible that another method is used by the authors of the A16 cookbook. I will have more on this later.

I took your flour weight and, using the expanded pizza dough calculator at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I entered the data for the other ingredients to come up with the dough formulation posted below. For purposes of that dough formulation, I assumed that a cup of water weighs 8.2 ounces. This is less than the standard weight of 8.345 ounces for a cup, but in my experience, people tend to come closer to 8.2 ounces per cup than the more accurate number.

A16 Dough Formulation (Textbook Version)
Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour (100%):
Water (61.8271%):
ADY (0.16755%):
Salt (1.97922%):
Extra Virgin Olive Oil (1.59574%):
Total (165.56961%):
564 g  |  19.89 oz | 1.24 lbs (4 c.)
348.7 g  |  12.3 oz | 0.77 lbs (1 1/2 c.)
0.94 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
11.16 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
9 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
933.81 g | 32.94 oz | 2.06 lbs | TF = N/A

If the above data is correct, then a single dough ball would weigh about 8.24 ounces (32.94/4). On that basis, for a 10" pizza size, the thickness factor would be about 0.105. For a 12" size, the corresponding thickness factor would be about 0.073. Using a standard home oven, I would recommend using the 10" pizza size. If I had a very high temperature oven, I would use the 12" size.

As noted above, it is quite possible that the authors of the A16 cookbook are using a different method for measuring out the flour. In my experience, most people who do not use the Textbook method of flour measurement tend to use the Dip or Shake methods. These methods are defined at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397/topicseen.html#msg56397. Using the Caputo Extra Blu 00 flour as a proxy, I will use November's Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator to try to come up with a dough formulation for the A16 recipe using the Dip or Shake method of flour measurement.

Thanks again.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 11:20:44 AM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #329 on: September 13, 2008, 01:17:21 PM »
Following up on my last post, I did a simple extrapolation of the numbers for the Caputo 00 Extra Blu flour to try to come up with a version of the A16 dough formulation using either the Dip or Shake method of flour measurement. I got the following:

A16 Dough Formulation (Dip or Shake Version)
Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour (100%):
Water (57.752%):
ADY (0.1565%):
Salt (1.84876%):
Extra Virgin Olive Oil (1.49057%):
Total (161.24783%):
603.8 g  |  21.3 oz | 1.33 lbs (4 c.)
348.71 g  |  12.3 oz | 0.77 lbs (1 1/2 c.)
0.94 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
11.16 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
9 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
973.61 g | 34.34 oz | 2.15 lbs | TF = N/A

For the above version, a dough ball would weigh about 8.59 oz. (34.34/4). For the 10" size, the thickness factor would be about 0.109; for the 12" size, it would be about 0.076.

As between the two versions of the A16 dough formulation that I prepared, I would say that the version posted above in this post looks closer to what I would expect for the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, especially in terms of the hydration value. The two thickness factors also look to be in line with the values for a home application (10" = 0.109) and a high-temperature application (12" = 0.076).

Maybe someone can try both versions of the A16 dough formulation and report back on the results.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #330 on: September 13, 2008, 01:24:52 PM »
Peter,

Interesting observations. I'll make the dough you just posted and use the A16 three-day fermentation process and give it a shot with the LBE.

I'll report back on it.

Also, Nate Appleman mentioned the use of older dough, that is added to a new batch in Naples (Da Michele?). I could imagine that he wouldn't leave such a big factor out of his dough making process.
Mike

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #331 on: September 13, 2008, 01:49:35 PM »
I just happened to be making pizza's last night for a party today and measured out the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour. Based upon the Textbook measurement you reference I came up with an average weight of approx. 141g per cup or 564g for 4 cups.

Russ,

What is the depth of your 1-cup measuring cup?

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #332 on: September 13, 2008, 02:16:34 PM »
Also, Nate Appleman mentioned the use of older dough, that is added to a new batch in Naples (Da Michele?). I could imagine that he wouldn't leave such a big factor out of his dough making process.

Mike,

The description in the A16 book of the da Michele dough making process (adding a bit of older, fermented dough to each fresh batch) suggests the "old dough" method, which is an indirect method rather than a direct method (see Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8679/topicseen.html#msg8679). It has long been my understanding from what Marco has said that da Michele uses a natural yeast culture, and not in preferment quantities. However, from a post by member David at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3732.msg34600/topicseen.html#msg34600, it is possible that the dough preparation methods at da Michele may have changed.

If A16 is using the old dough method, then that is something that could have been left out in coming up with the A16 recipe for the cookbook. In fact, the writeup in the A16 cookbook mentions that a long fermentation produces a "similar effect" to the old dough method. The small amount of yeast plays into that theme by allowing the dough to ferment for a long time and produce more flavor by-products of fermentation.

Peter

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #333 on: September 13, 2008, 03:13:26 PM »
In re-reading the A16 recipe, I noticed for the first time that the heading of the recipe says that it makes four 9-to-10 inch pizzas. However, as previously noted, the instructions say to stretch the dough to 10"-12".  Possibly the numbers reflect some shrinkage in the finished pizzas although usually pizza operators don't quote pizza size by the finished baked pizza size. I could not find any reference at the A16 website of their pizza size, but my recollection from other reading is that it is 12".

Peter
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 03:32:25 PM by Pete-zza »


Offline Essen1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #334 on: September 13, 2008, 04:15:28 PM »
Peter,

Here's a blog from a guy from Montreal, checking out the SF food scene. Amongst others, he also went to A16 but wasn't too thrilled about the pizza, apparently.

Anyway, here's a pic of A16's pie and the accompanying link. The size looks like a 12" to me.

http://www.montrealfoodie.com/san-francisco-napa-and-sonoma/

« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 04:17:50 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #335 on: September 14, 2008, 03:08:47 PM »
Peter,

Question for you:

I'm about to make a new batch, using your latest A16 dough formula. However, I have a piece of older, nicely fermented dough from an earlier batch and would like to incorporate it into the new batch. How do I go about calculating it with the new formula?

Edit: I forgot to mention that the weight of the fermented dough is 168 gr.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 03:21:50 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #336 on: September 14, 2008, 03:47:10 PM »
Peter,

Question for you:

I'm about to make a new batch, using your latest A16 dough formula. However, I have a piece of older, nicely fermented dough from an earlier batch and would like to incorporate it into the new batch. How do I go about calculating it with the new formula?

Edit: I forgot to mention that the weight of the fermented dough is 168 gr.

Mike,

I think I would just replace about 15-20% of the formula flour (603.8 grams) with the "old dough", although in the "bread" world the amount can be double that. You could just add the piece of old dough to your fresh batch made in accordance with the A16 dough formulation but that will increase the total weight of the dough. Of course, you can always scale the finished dough batch back to the desired weight so that your pizza size is pretty much unchanged. Alternatively, you could put aside some of the new dough (with the piece of old dough) to be used as old dough for the next batch.

There may be a slight change in the hydration of the finished dough if the hydration of the old dough is different than what is called for in the A16 dough formulation, but I don't think the change will be material. Also, the total effective yeast quantity for the finished dough may also decline slightly if the yeast in the old dough is spent, or nearly so. You could increase the amount of yeast a bit to compensate, or you might increase the fermentation period of the dough a bit.

If you like the results, next time it might be possible to use the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html to come up with more precise numbers even though the tool was not designed to work with old doughs as such.

Peter

« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 04:57:39 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #337 on: September 14, 2008, 03:53:47 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for the suggestions. I was at first thinking to simply subtract the 168gr from the total of the new batch and then save a piece of dough from the new batch and let it ferment again for a future dough.

Your suggestion of increasing the yeast amount makes sense. I was thinking to increase the amount to 0.2% but that might be a bit too much, and the hydration to 60%.
Mike

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #338 on: September 14, 2008, 04:03:11 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions. I was at first thinking to simply subtract the 168gr from the total of the new batch and then save a piece of dough from the new batch and let it ferment again for a future dough.


Mike,

You could do that but that would increase the old dough to almost 28% of the formula flour. I don't know what effect that will have on the dough or finished crust. My practice with preferments is to start with around 15-20% of the formula flour.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 04:04:42 PM by Pete-zza »

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #339 on: September 14, 2008, 04:11:27 PM »
Peter,

Neither do I know how it'll turn out but it might be worth a shot.

So you think adding 25gr/35gr(rounded up) to the dough would be better than the entire 168gr?
Mike

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #340 on: September 14, 2008, 04:17:06 PM »
Peter,

Neither do I know how it'll turn out but it might be worth a shot.

So you think adding 25gr/35gr(rounded up) to the dough would be better than the entire 168gr?

Mike,


I am not sure I follow your math but 15% of 603.8 grams of flour is 90.57 grams of old dough, and 20% of 603.8 grams of flour is 120.08 grams. If you add too much old dough, apart from its effects on total yeast and total hydration, it can adversely affect the strength of the dough and also add too much flavor to the finished crust. There may also be effects on the texture of the finished crust.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 04:20:31 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #341 on: September 14, 2008, 04:22:41 PM »
Whoops, my bad.  ::)

I thought you meant 15%-20% from the 168gr. I think I'll go with the 120 gr. If it proves to be too much, I can always scale it down with the next batch. I like experimenting and trying new formulas.  :chef:

Thanks for your help, Peter. I'll report back how it turned out. Hopefully it won't be too bad.

Mike

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #342 on: September 14, 2008, 04:32:04 PM »
Mike,

The principal drawback of the old dough method for home pizza makers is that you have to keep the process going for a series of dough batches. Artisan pizza makers (and bread makers) can do that as part of their business, but most home pizza makers cannot. At some point, something happens to break the link. Of course, you can always take a piece of dough from an unrelated dough formulation and use that as old dough for another dough formulation.

Peter

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #343 on: September 14, 2008, 04:52:46 PM »
Peter,

I found this on a different forum:

Quote
Professor Raymond Calvel said that using prefermented dough is the best way to arrive at a full flavor with a good after taste. He suggested using 45% and up to 170% of the total flour weight of prefermented dough. The dough mix can be aged 3-4 hours and used as prefermented and up to 12 hours at room temp. or refrigerated for up to 36 hours before use.

In one video I saw of him using this process, he removed roughly 30% of a batch he had just mixed and set it aside for the next batch's pat fermente. I was surprised at the large amount but if you are making the same bread day after day it really is just a planning consideration. 30% of the current batch was made from 30% of the previous days batch. He is shown cutting it into small 1 Lb pieces while adding it into a 80 qt mixer.

Remember the amount of salt that will be in the preferment so you don't mistakenly end up with too much.  Hope this helps. I use this method all the time and I get great results.

Although it is for bread making, I'm sure the same principle could be applied to a pizza dough.
Mike

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #344 on: September 14, 2008, 05:06:03 PM »
Mike,

I follow Didier Rosada's numbers for prefermented dough, which is a range of 10-180% of the total formula flour. However, according to Rosada, 40-50% is more common. I tend to use smaller amounts of preferments because I do not want to get powerful "sourdough" flavors in the finished crust. I like those flavors in a sourdough bread, but not in a pizza crust. You should know fairly quickly if you like the flavor of your pizza crust.

Peter

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #345 on: September 15, 2008, 04:25:59 PM »
November,

I used a Williams and Sonoma standard measuring cup. Approx. 1 3/4" deep with 3 1/4" diameter.
Russ

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #346 on: September 15, 2008, 06:42:29 PM »
Peter,

Here's the formula I used for the A16 dough. I had to stick with KABF, though, since the older, fermented dough was made with it. Plus, I increased the hydration a bit.

516 gr  KABF  (100%)
325 gr Water (63%)
15 gr   Salt     (2.9%)
10 gr  EVOO   (1.9%)
  1 gr  ADY      (0.19%)

Total: 867 gr.

Plus, I added 100 gr old dough to it (19%), which brings it to 967gr total. I'm shooting for three 280 gr dough balls. That'll leave me with 127gr new "old" dough to add to a new batch.

I did a 24hr cold-rise and am currently doing a 3hr RT before dividing it into three balls and giving it another 3hr rest.

The aroma so far is incredible. I'll have some pics either tonight or tomorrow.
Mike

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #347 on: September 16, 2008, 06:35:28 PM »
Last night I had my first shot at the A16 dough.

Even though I was too impatient to let the dough do the recommended 3-day cold-rise it turned out exceptionally well, in terms of texture and taste.

I also added some older, fermented dough to the mix and after a 30 hr proofing period, the aroma was great. The crust itself had nice oven spring, great taste and was overall very airy and light.

I didn't have enough Caputo 00 pizza flour left, so I had to use KABF. The next A16 batch will include Cap 00 Pizza.

Mike

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #348 on: September 16, 2008, 06:42:09 PM »
Mike,

The pizzas look good. It will be interesting to see your results when you use the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, both with and without the old dough, and with a three-day fermentation. Do you plan to make a Caputo 00 old dough?

Peter

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #349 on: September 16, 2008, 06:52:16 PM »
Peter,

Thanks.

Once I get the new shipment of Caputo 00 in from Pennmac, I'll use Cap 00 old dough in a batch following the next one. The older, fermented dough added a nice touch to the crust. I can't point my finger on it in terms of what exactly it is, but it made a difference. Just the smell alone was different from any other dough I've made so far. Even the ones where I used fresh yeast in it.

I also think that I need to adjust to using less toppings.  :chef:
Mike

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