Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF

[pizzanapoletana]

OK, if you are interested in the proper Neapolitan method, here is a video.

The  process was staged for the camera, thus is longer then the working one. Normally less slaps are necessary.


http://wwwlapizza.altervista.org/cirogallo/CIMG0011.AVI

Ciao

[Pete-zza]

The photos below show my latest Caputo 00 pie in which I tested the use of diastatic malt in the basic “giotto A16” recipe in an attempt to increase the coloration of the finished crust. As readers may recall, I recently made Caputo 00 pies in which I used dry dairy whey to accomplish the same objective. The theory behind today’s test is that it may be possible to extract sugars from the flour in significant quantity beyond what is needed to feed the yeast during fermentation so that the residual sugars then become available to increase the coloration of the crust during baking.

The recipe I followed was essentially the same as previously reported at Reply #172, but for the substitution of the diastatic malt for the dry dairy whey. Although it may have been possible to just add some diastatic malt to the Caputo 00 flour and hope that it would extract more sugars from the flour—through the action of the diastatic malt on the existing damaged starch molecules in the 00 flour—I elected to try to increase the amount of damaged starch at the same time so that more of it would be available for use by the diastatic malt (specifically, the amylase enzymes in the diastatic malt). The approach I chose to increase the damaged starch was to run the Caputo 00 flour through my food processor by dropping the flour a tablespoon at a time down the tube of the processor. This was similar to what I did recently in a version of the giotto A16 recipe in which I used a natural preferment and a same-day, room-temperature rise. (The results of that test were reported at the Caputo 00/Caputo 00 Biga thread.)

The final recipe I ended up with was as follows (including baker’s percents):

100%, Caputo 00 pizzeria flour, 7.59 oz. (1 1/2 c. plus 4 T.)
57.3%, Water, 4.35 oz. (approx. 1/2 c.)
2.4%, Sea salt, 0.18 oz. (between 7/8 and 1 t.)
1.79%, Extra-virgin olive oil, 0.14 oz. (between 3/4 and 7/8 t.)
0.6%, Diastatic malt, 0.05 oz. (a bit over 1/2 t.) (Note: The malt used was Bob’s Red Mill brand, from Whole Foods)
0.30%, IDY, 0.023 oz. (a bit less than 1/4 t.)
Finished dough ball weight = 12.32 oz. (for a single 13-inch pizza)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.093
Finished dough temperature = 81.5 degrees F.

In making the dough, I tried as much as possible to use the same processing steps as I previously used with the giotto A16 recipe in which I used the dry dairy whey, including a few days of retardation of the dough in the refrigerator (a total of about 54 hours) and two knockdowns of the dough during its stay in the refrigerator. The dough was brought out to room temperature for about 2 hours before shaping. Rather than shaping the dough on my wooden cutting board as I usually do, today I decided to do all the shaping on a smooth, glass-like cutting board. I decided to do this after seeing the wonderful video that James posted earlier today on this thread. I found this change to be very helpful. The dough handled very well—pretty much along the lines of what I saw in the video (which I ran over and over again until I just about had it memorized.) The dough didn’t quite have the balance of extensibility (stretch) and elasticity (springback) as the previous doughs including the dairy whey, but it was quite good nonetheless. I had no problems whatsoever with the dough.

The dough was shaped into a 13-inch round and dressed in a basic Margherita style. It was baked on a pizza stone that had been placed on the lowest oven rack position and preheated for about an hour at about 500-550 degrees F. During the roughly five minutes that the pizza baked on the stone, the crust achieved reasonable coloration. As with my last experiment using the diastatic malt, the degree of coloration was less than what I was hoping for. So, to increase the browning of the crust even more, I moved the pizza to the uppermost rack position and exposed the pizza to the broiler element, which had been turned on about 4 minutes into the bake cycle. It took less than 30-45 seconds for the crust to brown up to the level I was hoping to achieve. This was faster than what I normally experience when baking crusts that do not include diastatic malt (or dairy whey for that matter). Consequently, I believe that diastatic malt is a reasonably good alternative to dairy whey in increasing the degree of coloration of the finished crust. Whether it is possible only to use diastatic malt without having to increase the starch damage in the Caputo 00 flour is an experiment for another day.

The pizza itself tasted very good. However, like the recent pizza in which I used two punchdowns and reshapings of the dough, the crust was still bread-like in quality—from the middle all the way out to the rim. It was chewy but didn’t seem to have that nice crunch. Since the only difference between the two doughs was the type of color enhancer used, I am inclined to believe that the handling of the dough may be the reason for the bread-like quality. The only way to get clarity on this is to repeat the experiment but not handle the dough during its time in the refrigerator. As far as crust flavor is concerned, I clearly prefer the Caputo 00 pies that use a natural preferment and room-temperature fermentation, and especially when accompanied by the use of dry dairy whey or diastatic malt to achieve better crust color. The Caputo 00 pies based on refrigerated doughs will have greater flavor the longer the period of fermentation, but the flavor impact is still not at the level achievable from using a preferment. That, of course, is a personal opinion--one undoubtedly influenced by all the naturally leavened Caputo doughs I have made, of which there have been quite a few. As between dry dairy whey and diastatic malt, my preference is the dry dairy whey, mainly since the dairy whey appears to produce a better handling dough. I see no reason why both dairy whey and diastatic malt can't both be used together in a dough. They will both increase coloration but through different mechanisms.

The photos below show the finished product.

Peter

[Bill/SFNM]

OK, if you are interested in the proper Neapolitan method, here is a video.

I think I need to go to a school to learn how to do it that way. I'll try this method, but I suspect I'll end up with something the shape of Italy.

Bill/SFNM

[giotto]

I want to clarify that the liberty that the pizzaiolo took in the video to add herbs, garlic and oils was ONLY for a certain type of pizza.  In other cases, just tomatoes (with ONLY salt in their recipe), and fresh mozz are employed with basil or a topping like prosciutto.  The Pizzaiolo appeared to be in training the last time I was there by the more seasoned one that was leaving, and the stretching was all on the table.  Otherwise, the approach to push down the dough on a floured table, followed by a stretch with one hand while holding it down with another is an approach that we have agreed to its benefits in the past.  Personally, I also prefer to finalize the stretch in the air, especially with a 14"+ pizza.
 
Bill:

The dough at A16 has been sitting in the refrigerator for at least 2 days, sometimes more.  It is not dry.  The more seasoned Pizzaiolo used to take a breath every time he pulled the pizza onto the peel, despite the amount of flour that you'll see sitting on their table.  Like so many pizzerias, when the pizzaiolo took it from their dough ball tray, light flour was added around it.  The dough will not stick to the board, and you will not find flour on the bottom or in the taste when you add it in early.  However, when you have to douse it onto the peel, it can be awful. 

[giotto]

Pete-zza:

Interesting.  Crispy has not been the issue for me.  Originally, our problem was that the dough was too tough with no  color in our non-fired ovens.  Sounds like the amount of additional ingredients are making it too soft.  Reducing the oil (fats) should reduce the softening while working with additional ingredients (e.g. whey) .

In my last couple of pizzas, I did not bother with pushing it down... there was no need with the little bit of yeast that I added.  I received no bubbles and no growth, which is what I prefer with any of my pizzas.  It seems that 1/8 tsp of Instant yeast is plenty when working with under 10 oz of flour.  I still prefer Active yeast since my goal is to delay fermentation, not expedite it, and yeast is placed in water in either case.  The majority of my water is cool and dough temp is around 78F before I refrigerate it.  I use stainless steel bowls to help remove heat.  By the 3rd day, I naturally start to see visible evidence of the dough relaxing.  I don't like an over-soured pizza crust as I do sour bread here in San Francisco.  Probably because too much of anything is not preferred.  So I'm careful not to offset the taste of this flour any more than a few days of delayed fermentation in this area. 

By the way, the broiler is working out just fine.  My test gauge goes to 700F, which I easily reach at the 2nd to highest temp.  The distance of my oven is about 17", so I am placing the pizza just over 5" from the broiler.  With Buffalo mozzarella (and a zesty no-lactose dry cheese from a local farm), plus California plum tomatoes (fully in season from local farms), I'm getting a great consistency without burn on top.  I made it a bit messy when I added the sauteed veges.
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/broiler-pizza.JPG)

[Pete-zza]

giotto,

I agree. It is all quite interesting.

On the one hand, I think we have figured out a way to get more color in the crust, but looking at the photo of an A16 pizza that James provided earlier, the crust color is different (from the photo, the A16 crust actually looks lighter) and of different character. However, I am still pleased to know that we can get more color if that is what we want.

The crust texture remains an issue for me--one that I would like to resolve if possible without altering the pizza in some material way. I like the way that the dough handles with the whey, so your idea of leaving the oil out strikes me as being a good one to try to reduce the crust softness a bit. I will also experiment with leaving the dough alone while it is in the refrigerator. This is what I do with the Lehmann doughs. And watching the giotto A16 doughs I have made, I notice that they behave in much the same way while they are under refrigeration--with little expansion. Like you, I also use a metal container, and for the same reasons you do. I use a cookie tin but it seems to do the same job as the metal proofing containers that professionals use when they don't use trays.

I have also noted that in addition to the flavor enhancement that comes from using a natural preferment, the doughs leavened with natural preferments yield crusts that are different from those based on using commercial yeast and a period of retardation of the dough. You may recall that when I asked pizzanapoletana (Marco) about this subject generally, he responded (in an earlier post on this thread) as follows (in italics):

Now it is proven that enzymes, as well as yeast, work better and faster at room temperature. However with commercial yeast, this process happen too fast, and thus the enzymes do not have time to work on the damaged starch.

The principle of retardation is that with a large amount of yeast we introduce also more enzymes in the dough. At this stage, once in the fridge, whilst the yeast get slowed down a lot, the enzymes get slowed down slightly less (but they still get slowed down), however for the large quantity of enzymes as well, the maturation of the dough, happen faster then the fermentation.

The proper retardation needs of at least three fermentation room, the first at -10 celsius, the second at +2 and the third at 12-16, then finally the dough needs to be brought at room temperature at around 25 celsius.

Going back to the caputo flour, you have rightly pointed out that it has a low amylasse activity, thus it is not ideal for retardation purpose. On the other hand the retardation technique would be really beneficial for strong flour with high amylasse activity (low falling number).

Do not forget that high hydration also speed up the enzyme activity and salt on the other hand slow it down.

It was in part because of Marco’s comments that I experimented with trying to increase the amount of starch damage in the Caputo 00 flour and to use diastatic malt to add more alpha amylase enzymes to work on the added damaged starch. I did this with both a commercially leavened Caputo 00 dough and a naturally leavened one, and the results of the naturally leavened Caputo 00 dough seemed to me to be better--both from a crust flavor and texture standpoint. An added advantage is that I can make a usable dough faster when I use a natural preferment--on a same-day basis. The disadvantage, of course, is that one has to have a preferment available and maintain it. That is one of the reasons why I would like to be able to reproduce the same qualities in a retarded dough situation--or at least get closer.

Peter

[giotto]

Pete-zza:

The goal for enzyme activity to continue at a different rate than yeast activity with refrigeration, combined with our propensity to employ as little yeast as possible while using salt to curb its appetite, underlies our practices for some time based on the objectives described by Reinhart and other sources.  Just as a good wine requires certain fermentation techniques, so does a good pizza crust. 

The one difference I originally found intriguing in the note, however, was the preservation of the starches using extreme lower temps.  Since natural sugars are apparently released within 8 hours by enzymes, it would be great to preserve the starches until closer to the time of using it without crystallizing and damaging certain starch elements, a noted problem in chemistry with extreme lower temps.

My goal is to always achieve a texture that is light, and slightly airy and transparent, which becomes one with the pizza other than a slight crispy crunch of a crust, with a taste that makes no one thing about the pizza necessary stand out. This I admit is quite different than a fluffy texure with a butter-like texture that some wish to achieve, and which is more reminiscent of a tasty pastry that I had from a french bakery this morning, without the complexity of taste.  Since pizza is one of those things that is needed within 1 1/2 hours due to unexpected visitors, etc., I barely have time to plan for anything more than heating up the oven, and making it.  So an unprepared dough waiting in the fridge is not an issue for me.

[Pete-zza]

giotto,

I know in the past you have made reference to the 8-hour time period for enzymes to extract sugar from the flour. Is that for a room-temperature dough or a refrigerated one?

I usually have a pretty good idea before I make a dough what "window" I am striving for, that is, the time between the dough coming off the hook to when it is to be used. Then I adjust the controllable factors to hopefully achieve that window. By controllable factors I mean amount of yeast (whether commercial or a preferment), the amount of water (hydration), water temperature, fermentation temperature (room temperature or in the refrigerator), salt (so long as the amount stays within a tolerable range), and sugar (only as food for long fermentations, mainly in the refrigerator). I would think that the 8-hour period you mention will vary depending on how one controls the above factors, as well as doing things like adding diastatic malt. Is that your understanding?

Peter

[giotto]

Pete-zza:

I always appreciate your ability to keep things in perspective.  I no more than took off for the beach in Monterey today, and I realized that I had forgotten something that certainly plays a more important role in taste than sugars when it comes to yeast, enzyme activity and time.  We've discussed bacterial fermentation in the past; but it certainly plays tribute when considering a window of time for me, as well as explaining variations in regional tastes.

First, let me say, Yes, the controllable factors and your layout play tribute to my window of time as well.  A couple of other minor roles that I might add into your existing factors include the role that sugar plays in feeding bacterial fermentation as well as feeding yeast, which I discuss more below.  And maybe the hydroscopic (moisture retention) nature of oils and sugars, which might be added to your hydration category, along with their propensity to soften the final result.

The thought that occurred to me on the road today is that my taste buds tell me that the sugar level is minimal compared to the bacterial growth, acidity and variability that can result from local development of yeast.  My main interest in bacterial growth is in the acidity that is formed, which as you know, can result in tremendous differences to the taste of the final result and can vary greatly according to territory (e.g., San Francisco sour dough), time and handlling. 

When creating a starter or working with a commercial yeast, I have not had a problem with a bacterial strain impacting yeast fermentationl.  I saw a suggestion by Reinhart to use pineapple juice initially to prevent this occurrence with wild yeast; but I have not bothered with it. 

When working with a dough that is refrigerated, and that is based on the usual reliable commercial yeast (S. cerevisiae yeast), and which receives zero feeding, I have witnessed a loss in spring of the crust after 5 - 7 days due to loss of yeast activity and a decline in color with lack of sugar availability.  This coincides with the times suggested by Reinhart and others as well.

I'm not surprised that when someone tastes something in let's say San Francisco, Harlem, or Naples, the amount of bacterial fermentation and location of that pizzeria can make the result almost impossible to reproduce from scratch.  It's not uncommon for someone to find a noticeable difference when just leaving their doughs in their refrigerator for a couple of days beyond their normal 1 or 2 days.

With regard to sugar yield, I noticed that Reinhart places 5-7 hours as an appropriate time frame for enzymes to yield their sugar levels, since most are released.  My experience is that while refrigeration retards yeast activity, its effect on enzyme activity is not much different than room temps.  Even so, while the sugar may be available in a short-time frame, I have found minimal modification in taste unless a more important chemistry process that results from bacterial fermentation is employed. 

I can either rely on the the taste of a favorite flour combined with natural sugars extracted within a few hours, or arrive at a different taste by mixing with another flour (as Chris Bianco does) or by including a starter (that may be from a different flour or different region).  Since I have my share of an incredible variety of breads around here, I end up going the route of A16 and delaying the fermentation for at least 2 days, and preferably 3 days, since this gives me a great taste that doesn't stand out too much in a pizza crust.

As for texture and color, I also rely on such factors as the softening of fats and sugars relative to protein levels, types of sugars (lactose vs. cane sugar), hydration levels, handling techniques, and cooking techniques.  Without the high temperatures, we have decided to modify with ingredients like whey, and the crust will no longer appear whitish in color (oh darn); an A16 crust with a NY look is more agreeable around my home.

With all this said, I'm off to create another batch.  Not sure what I'll do this time.  But it will be a couple of days before I'll return.  Happy 4th.

[Pete-zza]

giotto,

A Happy 4th to you, and to all our other members as well.

I once made the mistake in a PMQ post to say that oil was "hygroscopic". I knew better because I was aware of the old adage that "oil and water don't mix", but I guess my mind was off the beam that day. Tom Lehmann corrected me by saying that oil was "hydrophobic"--the exact opposite of hygroscopic (or hydroscopic, if you prefer). At the same time, I know what you mean about the role of oil in a dough since you, unlike just about everyone else I can think of, include oil along with the water as the measure of total hydration--because both are wet ingredients and are absorbed by flour. In that sense, oil and water have a peaceful co-existence .

Peter

[giotto]

Pete-zza:

We've had opposite experiences on this one.  I didn't think that oils retained moisture either, until I was corrected by P. Reinhart, who identified FATs as "Hydroscopic" along with sugar, and that BOTH retain moisture and increase shelf life and of course, act as a softener.  Oils contain fats, usually 3 types.  You'll see his reference under the first 2 pages of the topic of "Family of doughs" in American Pie. 

Personally, my only interest in oils is as a softener.  BUT I'm curious...who be right?

[Pete-zza]

giotto,

I don't know that it really matters. As you may know if you read Tom Lehmann's advice on the use of oil by pizza operators, he regularly counsels that the oil be added to the dough after just about everything else (flour, water, yeast, salt and sugar). The point he makes is that if the oil gets between the water and the flour, the flour will not absorb water as well. Maybe this means more to pizza operators who make large dough batch sizes. I don't know that it means nearly as much for the dough ball sizes we are talking about (although I usually do it out of habit). Tom Lehmann also mentions the hydrophobic properties of oil placed on a dough before the sauce is put on. According to his analysis, the oil prevents migration of the water in the sauce into the dough. I don't think that anyone disputes that fats--and sugars as well--have dough tenderizing properties, as you have noted.

Peter

[giotto]

Pete-zza:

Well, it turns out that fats are composed of glycerol and fatty acids.  Glycerol is definitely hydroscopic, while fatty acids are not.  In the end, we can hold the chemistry to what we experience, and enjoy the flexibility of adjustments without shooting in the dark.  I wouldn't follow the path any other way and look forward to eventually doing something worthwhile out of the box. 

[Bill/SFNM]

I just had lunch at A16 so I'm going to key in here some quick thoughts while they are fresh in my mind.

The pizza Margherita was VERY good. I enjoyed every bite. I sat at the counter right in front of the pizza making station and in front of the oven so I could see everything. Chef Christophe couldn't have been nicer and spent as much time as I wanted answering my questions.  I took some photos, but nothing that would add to what has been posted by others. The dough forming process which includes a lot of slapping of sprinkled four into the moist dough is shown in the video. The floured metal peel which is used to load the pie into the oven is very thin, much thinner than the one I own.

I think his style is very close to mine. I prefer my crust which has more flavor due to the natural starter I use. He uses only IDY and retards for 2 days as previously posted. I prefer his sauce which is thinner than mine and brighter, melding perfectly with cheese. He uses tomatoes from a local supplier.

Most interesting to me was his fire management. He tosses in wood chips (IIRC, Da Michele uses sawdust) to flare up the fire so that it arches up the sides and top of the oven to radiate heat down onto the top of the pie. Excess flour from the bench is also tossed into the flames to flare up the fire.   

Anyway, gotta run, but I had a blast watching pizzas formed and baked and especially eaten by me.

Bill/SFNM

[Tom Grim]

Just a quick note about A16.  When i visited San Francisco many months ago, i sat at the famed chefs counter and watched the pizza's being made.  Right next to the oven was a big Hobart mixer.  I cannot say for sure that this mixer is used to make the dough but I am suspicious.  The VPN does not appove of Hobart mixers.
And, I seem to remember that the VPN requires Buffalo Motz, and A16 uses fresh locally made Motz.
Are they bending the rules? 

Tom

[Pete-zza]

Tom,

I am not aware that the VPN does not approve of Hobart mixers. It does allow for mixers that are approved by the VPN, and I would be surprised to hear that the Hobart mixers are not approved. In any event, from what Giotto and Friz have reported, I understand that a good part of the dough kneading at A16 is done by hand, after some preliminary mixing in a mixer.

I am fairly certain that the VPN allows mozzarella cheese other than buffalo mozzarella. As you will note if you use the VPN link below, the VPN charter permits use of fior di latte, which is cow's milk mozzarella cheese. Even in Naples, it is more common to use fior di latte than buffalo mozzarella cheese since it is cheaper and it is also less watery on the pizza and doesn't require draining before using. The Italians are more likely to reserve the buffalo mozzarella cheese for eating purposes. If one asks for a DOC pizza, then the cheese must be buffalo mozzarella cheese, as I understand the practice in restaurants in Naples. The tomatoes also have to be DOP San Marzanos (or specified cherry-type tomatoes) and, theoretically at least, the rest of the DOC rules must be followed. Nonetheless, the point you make about bending the rules is a good one. I have myself detected variations from the charter by pizzerias that are certified by the VPN. A16, for example, departs from the VPN rules by using IDY instead of "yeast of beer", or fresh yeast, and by using olive oil in the dough.

Here is the link to the VPN charter: http://www.verapizzanapoletana.org/vpn/vpn_frames-index.htm (click on the "Charter" link).

Peter

[Tom Grim]

Peter,
I am certain that I read somewhere that the only mixer that the VPN approves of is a German mixer that doesn't spin like a traditional mixer.  Rather, it has 'hands' that emulate human mixing.  As I recall, the rational for the use of this mixer is that it doesn't cause the dough to warm up as much as it would with a traditional mixer.  I will try to find more info on this and get back to you.

Tom

[Bill/SFNM]

A little follow-up to the report on my visit yesterday to A16. Although I said I enjoyed every bite, certain bites were better than others. In particular, the bites with lots of charring on the top verged on being a little bitter. Charring can be desirable since it can add some flavor but this particular pizza may have had just a little too much. My current thinking is that slow fermentation using natural starters gives enough character to the crust that I don't want so much charring that it interferes.

Bill/SFNM

[pizzanapoletana]

Yes the Hobart it is not approved because it is a planetary mixer.

The DOC rule approve only the following three mixer,  from best choice to a less good choice, in order:

1-Diving Arms mixer

2-Fork mixer

3 Spiral mixer

I have to say that I know few VPN members that uses a planetary mixer (outside Italy, including Japan).

Ciao

[pizzanapoletana]

I am fairly certain that the VPN allows mozzarella cheese other than buffalo mozzarella. As you will note if you use the VPN link below, the VPN charter permits use of fior di latte, which is cow's milk mozzarella cheese. Even in Naples, it is more common to use fior di latte than buffalo mozzarella cheese since it is cheaper and it is also less watery on the pizza and doesn't require draining before using. The Italians are more likely to reserve the buffalo mozzarella cheese for eating purposes. If one asks for a DOC pizza, then the cheese must be buffalo mozzarella cheese, as I understand the practice in restaurants in Naples.
Peter

Peter,

I would like to point out that the Fior di Latte used in Naples is made exclusively with Milk of the Agerolese Cow, and it is a completely different product (top quality).
The mozzarella di bufala sells in Naples for 9-10 euro a Kg, and the Fior di Latte d'Agerola sells for 7-8 Euro a Kg. On the other hand a common fior di latte sells for 4-5 euro a Kg....

Ciao