Author Topic: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF  (Read 154270 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #350 on: September 16, 2008, 07:03:20 PM »
Mike,

I suppose the ultimate test is one between a pizza made using the A16 dough formulation, with or without old dough, and a pizza made at the A16 restaurant itself.

Peter


Offline Essen1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #351 on: September 16, 2008, 07:32:37 PM »
Peter,

I guess that's the only way to find out. It's been awhile but I think I have to get my butt over there and check it out again.
Mike

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #352 on: September 17, 2008, 12:20:07 AM »
Peter,

I forgot to mention that I will stick to the recipe from A16's cookbook and will measure in volumes rather than percentages with the next batch.

However, when my Ex-GF and I went to A16, shortly after they opened in 2004, Christophe Hille was still the Executive Chef. Hopefully, the recipe hasn't changed because from what I remember, the pizzas were outstanding. The reason I remember that is because my then-girlfriend was from Jersey and she was extremely proud of the East Coast pizzas. After A16, she succumbed.  ;D

The funny thing is, even to this day, she loves the occasional NYC-style pie from Cybelle's in SF. Don't ask me why, though.
Mike

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Offline andreguidon

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #353 on: September 17, 2008, 08:05:17 AM »
the pie looks great !!!

this was a cold fermentation right ?
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #354 on: September 17, 2008, 08:48:00 PM »
Andre,

I did a 24hr cold-rise, a 3 hr bulk at RT and a 3 hr RT rise for the individual dough balls.

I was too impatient, though.  :) It should have been a 3-day cold ferment.
Mike

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Offline fazzari

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #355 on: September 17, 2008, 10:43:29 PM »
Mike,
In viewing the recipe and procedures for the A16, I was most fascinated with the mixing steps.  If I remember right this dough is mixed for "about" 22 minutes with a 5 minute rest in the middle.  Although I realize the mix times are approximate, they seem very long.  Did you follow this step of the recipe??

I made a batch on Sunday, using the mixing times and Peter's first calculations of the recipe.  Baked them this evening.  WOW! is all I can say.  Not only does the dough just about open up itself, the bottom is a nice brown with specks and blotches of dark, crispy, and chewy.  My biggest problem is that I have nothing to compare against, so I can only judge but what I think the pictures I see taste like..I really need smellovison I guess.

John

Offline Essen1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #356 on: September 17, 2008, 11:47:03 PM »
John,

I'm glad it turned out great for you.  :chef:

I haven't followed A16's mixing regimen. I also added an older, fermented piece of dough to the batch. It Pizzas turned out great as well. I just need to use less toppings.

How did you bake it? Home oven?
Mike

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Offline andreguidon

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #357 on: September 18, 2008, 07:40:46 AM »
Hi Mike,

Was the bulk RT after or before the 24h cold fermentation ?

thanks again.....

iam starting my WFO next week, so iam very excited whit these Hi temp formulas.......

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #358 on: September 18, 2008, 11:21:40 AM »
In viewing the recipe and procedures for the A16, I was most fascinated with the mixing steps.  If I remember right this dough is mixed for "about" 22 minutes with a 5 minute rest in the middle.  Although I realize the mix times are approximate, they seem very long. 

John,

The question of mix/knead times comes up often in the context of a Neapolitan 00 dough. The VPN disciplinaire document itself, a translation of which can be seen at http://www.fornobravo.com/vera_pizza_napoletana/VPN_spec.html, calls for a 10 minute plus 20 minute mix/knead combination. That combination is intended to be with respect to mixers that are used in Italy (and Naples) and not to apply to planetary mixers, which are rarely used in Naples for pizza dough but is the most common type of mixer used in the U.S. for pizza (and bread) dough. Unfortunately, many people have taken that 10/20 combination literally and are using it with planetary mixers. Moreover, some cookbook authors, such as Pamela Sheldon Johns in her pizza cookbook, Pizza Napoletana!, uses the 10/20 combination for an all-purpose/pastry flour blend intended to emulate 00 flour, which shouldn't require a total of 30 minutes to properly develop the gluten. (Her book does not have a 00 dough recipe even though, as a resident of Italy for several years, she was fully aware of the 00 flour and its use.)

The long knead times originally promulgated in the VPN document were for 00 flours and was specified to properly and sufficiently develop the small amount of gluten formed in that flour. However, as noted by Marco (pizzanapoletana) at Reply 116 at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13378.html#msg13378 --with particular reference to A16 when Chef Halle was there-- it isn't always necessary to use the full 10/20 combination.

Peter


Offline Essen1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #359 on: September 18, 2008, 12:43:00 PM »
John,

I agree with Peter. 22 mins, or even 30 mins, of total mixing time with a planetary mixer such as the KitchenAid is too long.

Andre,

The RT rise comes after the cold-rise.
Mike

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Offline fazzari

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #360 on: September 18, 2008, 01:26:35 PM »
Thanks for the information gentlemen....as I said above, it was the mix time as described in the recipe, that originally caught my eye.  When I mixed my dough I didn't follow time per se, but looked for results..  it didn't take the original 10 minute mix to pull the dough from the sides, it only took about 5 minutes.  After this the recipe calls for a 5 minute rest, which I did...it then calls for a 10 minute mix to make an even softer smoother dough.  So, I set the KA to mix and watched,...after about 5 or 6 minutes there was a noticable change in the dough..it was a very definate change...it was there that I stopped.  The folds on the next two days were something I've never experienced..it was really a different textured dough.  This was 100% Caputo cooked in a 2 stone at about 750 degrees......I'm sold..it was excellent

John

Offline andreguidon

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #361 on: September 18, 2008, 01:56:36 PM »
Thanks Mike !

the Pie looks great John !
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Essen1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #362 on: September 23, 2008, 10:23:42 PM »
I gave it another shot last night at the A16 pizza and used a dough that was made in about six hours.

I didn't expect the flavor to be great but it was decent. I lowered the hydration to 62%, didn't use the old-dough method, no starter etc, and stuck to the basics, if you will.

They were decent pizzas and the crust was light but had a nice crunch to it.

Mike

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Offline VarunS

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #363 on: April 19, 2011, 05:04:46 AM »
Hey Guys,

I tried the recipe given in the A 16 book with only the volume measurements. However I kneaded it by hand since I don't have a stand mixer. Kneaded for totally 20 mins. Used 00 flour for the dough.

Since I don't have an oven that gets really hot to cook the pizza in under 2 mins I used one of these kinds http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Pizza-Maker-/290556773614?pt=UK_HGKitchen_SmallApp_RL&hash=item43a68884ee

I rolled it quite thin and made a 10" pie from about 200grams of dough.  It took about 4:30 - 5:00 mins to cook the pizza. The pizza was very good no doubt but I would like to know what a true Neapolitan should be like. This was crisp and slightly chewy. The edges were also crispy. What would the difference be texture wise if it cooked in under 2 mins as in WFO or the broiler method. Would the edges be softer? I didn't see the large air pockets as I have in some of the pics, this I understand due to not having a super super hot oven. Also the nice dark brown spots were not there, more a light shade of brown.

Also is it necessary to create a small wall around while rolling the dough (referring to the sides where no sauce is applied)?

Thanks for answering my silly questions :)

Cheers

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #364 on: April 19, 2011, 09:31:17 AM »
I rolled it quite thin and made a 10" pie from about 200grams of dough.


Try stretching out your dough ball by hand next time. Press it down with your fingers leaving a rim around the outside. Then, strech it with your hands and over your knuckles. I think they have pictures of this in the A16 cookbook if I remember correctly. If not, there are lots of videos on youtube. I've seen many links on this forum.

Quote
It took about 4:30 - 5:00 mins to cook the pizza. The pizza was very good no doubt but I would like to know what a true Neapolitan should be like. This was crisp and slightly chewy. The edges were also crispy. What would the difference be texture wise if it cooked in under 2 mins as in WFO or the broiler method. Would the edges be softer? I didn't see the large air pockets as I have in some of the pics, this I understand due to not having a super super hot oven. Also the nice dark brown spots were not there, more a light shade of brown.

You might read through some of the threads in the Pizzeria & restaurant Reviews sections. I posted one for A16 a while back also Tony's in North Beach which was one of my favorite pies. There are lots of other good reviews of Neapolitan places. Digesting those should give you some idea of what to expect from a Neapolitan pie.

A lot of the oven spring and brown spots you are looking for come directly from the high heat that is difficult to achieve in a  home oven. Scott123 has written a number of posts on how to maximize your pies out of a home oven. You can use the advanced search feature to find them. Not rolling out your dough will also help get you the large air pockets. So will longer fermentation time.

CL
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Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline VarunS

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #365 on: April 20, 2011, 01:58:56 AM »
Thanks Craig, will try out your suggestions

Offline ox4

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #366 on: May 22, 2012, 08:16:34 PM »
Home pizza cooker here using std 500 deg oven.  Thanks for this thread. 

I tried the A16 from home using existing tools and ingredients with the exception that I found some ADY and used that instead of IDY.  I have concluded I don't like the flavor of the IDY--maybe even results.

Followed Pete's textbook conversions and weighed all in grams.  Used GMBF, Fleishman's ADY, tap water, EVOO, Morton's regular table salt, mixed using food processor with plastic dough blade but not at directed a16 times.  Stopped processor as dough changed states.  Put in refrig 24 hrs, refolded refrig another 24 hrs, divided into fours, rested for 2 hrs (dough was very soft), nicely formed into rounds (no stretch back), then cooked in 500 deg oven with pizza stone. 

Results---excellent bite and flavor.  Color was more white despite painting out edge with EVOO--looking at pics in this thread from John---I think and noticed his finished crust was white except where charred.  So, I think the color achieved is okay---I just need a hotter oven.  Anyways loved the taste and the bite. 

Next time I am going to try the 00 flour.  Thanks for all your help.

Dave 





Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #367 on: May 22, 2012, 10:43:35 PM »
The 00 will have even less color when baked at 500F. You might get better results with AP flour.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline ox4

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #368 on: May 23, 2012, 06:38:11 PM »
okay will try that next.  i have some kaap at 4%.  Thanks.


 

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