Author Topic: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF  (Read 123820 times)

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Offline giotto

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #220 on: August 11, 2005, 02:31:00 PM »
A16 is very open about what they do.  Whole Foods carries the ITALBRAND DOP San Marzano tomatoes, which A16 recommends.  I often enjoy other tomato products here in the SF bay area; but as mentioned earlier, the Whole Foods DOP texture is nice right from the bottle after a blend with just a touch of salt as used by A16.  You can find this and other recommendations by A16 in early posts.  Since geographical areas influence the results of starters, and San Francisco is certainly known for its sour dough, I'm grateful that A16 keeps the fermentation to a minimum.  We didn't find any tainting to the charred taste; although at times I prefer the taste of the char at Amici's in Mtn View.

A16 works in very small batches (95 oz total weight per batch), and as Pete-zza points out with earlier posts, the mixer is used only to initially bring it together.  Hand kneading is then used along with small batches to avoid any heat issues.  This is the same process that I tend to follow.  America is married to deviation, some good, some not.  I worry most though when it hurts my health (e.g., nitrates, etc) or disregards quality.  Not a problem here.

Abatardi recently went to Bianco's and was enthusiastic about their Biancoverde, which uses Arugula greens from their local farmer markets-- Chris Bianco is well respected for his propensity to do business locally.  Hopefully we'll be hearing what Abatardi thinks in the differences with A16.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2005, 03:42:43 PM by giotto »

Offline Ryuji

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #221 on: October 16, 2005, 02:07:26 AM »
Great discussion on this board, although it looks like I missed the active discussion period. 

Here's something folks on this board may find interesting -- an Oakland Tribune article from a year ago that lists A16's pizza dough recipe as told by Christophe Hille.  Surprisingly, I could not find this recipe anywhere online (the Oakland Tribune site, Google, other online search engines, nor the SF Library's article databases).   So I manually transcribed it from the paper version. 

Note the error in the recipe for the amount of salt to be used.  I'm leaning toward thinking it should be 10 grams, vs. 20.  Any thoughts?  But hope someone can try this recipe out with Caputo flour, and report back how it turns out!

-->Ryuji

***

Excerpt from the Oakland Tribune
September 15, 2004

Neapolitan-Style Pizza Dough
Recipe courtesy of Christophe Hille, A16.

A home oven won't produce enough heat to blister the crust, but, says Hille, you'll still get a tasty result.  Be sure to allow at least two days for this recipe, as the dough needs time to proof, which results in an exceptionally supple crust.  Enjoy with a crisp Campania white such as Greco di Tufo or Fiano d'Aveltino.

1/2 liter lukewarm water
1/3 ounce (10 grams) fresh yeast (not packaged)
1/2 ounce (15 grams) pure olive oil
1/3 ounce (20 grams) kosher salt 
   [NOTE: Error in the recipe, not sure what amount is correct.  If 20 grams is
    the correct amount of salt, then this should of been printed "2/3" ounce. 
    Otherwise, 1/3 ounce = approximately 10 grams.]
2 pounds Type 00 Italian soft wheat flour, often sold as "pasta flour." Do not substitute semolina flour.

   Whisk water, yeast, oil and salt in a large bowl.  Using a wooden spoon, slowly mix in roughly 2/3 of the flour, adding more if dough seems to wet.

   Knead the dough on a lightly floured surface for 8 to 9 minutes.  The dough should come away from the kneading surface easily, and should feel slightly smooth to the touch.

   Cover dough loosely with plastic wrap or a wet, oiled towel (to prevent sticking), and refrigerate for a day.  If you are making the dough for same-day use, it will need to proof gently at room temperature for 5 or 6 hours.  Alternately, it can be stored well-covered in the refrigerator for another night and then used the next day, at which point the procedure will again be to proof it for 5 or 6 hours at room temperature.

   When ready to use, divide dough into five 9-ounce pieces and roll into balls on a flat surface, then tucking the ends under, so the dough on the top of the balls is slightly stretched, and the bottom of the balls are slightly flattened.  Place the dough balls on a baking sheet, cover loosely with plastic wrap or a wet, oiled towel, and let sit for a day.

   Bring dough balls back to room temperature before preparing dough for shaping.  They will have doubled in size.  On a lightly floured countertop or cutting board, gently pat each ball down, and shape the pizzas by gently stretching or rolling dough until it is "about as thin as the edge of a quarter."  Transfer the dough to a thin, upside-down baking sheet, which will enable the dough to be easily transferred to the oven.  (You don't want a lip on the baking pan because it won't slide off easily.)

   To make a pizza Marinara, add about 5 ounces of tomato sauce to the center of the pizza, then spread the sauce out in concentric rings, using the back of a ladle.  Sprinkle the pizza with some chopped oregano, slivers from a clove of garlic, one basil leaf, and a drizzle of extra-virgin olive oil. 

   To bake, add your pizza to a pre-heated oven (as high as it will go) with a baking stone.  Open the oven, lift half of the pizza up off the banking sheet and hold it, draped over the banking stone.  Give the baking sheet a quick jerk to slide the rest of the dough onto the baking stone, gently pulling the draped edge of the dough at the same time, so the entire pizza lies flat on the baking stone.  Bake until golden.

Makes dough for five, 13-inch pizzas.

Per Serving: 646 Calories; 6g Fat; 26g Protein; 133g Carbohydrate; 23g Dietary Fiber; 0mg Cholesterol; 1434mg Sodium

Offline ilpizzaiolo

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #222 on: October 16, 2005, 11:08:45 AM »
the 20 grams would be accurate, they just messed up when converting.... it should be 2/3 oz, or .70 oz of sea salt.... thanks for the info!

- ron

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #223 on: October 16, 2005, 12:00:21 PM »
Ryuji,

Welcome to the forum.

Ron is correct. The Kosher salt should be 20 grams. With 2 pounds of flour (or 907.2 grams), 20 grams of Kosher salt is 2.2% (by weight of flour). That's about right for this type of recipe. It's possible that someone messed up the amount of salt in the recipe because Kosher salt is lighter than regular table salt and is sometimes increased to compensate.

I converted the recipe to baker's percents and volumes, and, assuming my math and conversions are correct, get the following:

55.1%, Water (lukewarm), 1/2 liter (500 mg.), 17.64 oz., (2 1/8 c.)
1.1%, Fresh Yeast, 10 g. (1/3 oz.) (Note: this is about 1 1/2 of one of the small 0.6 oz./7 g. supermarket cubes)
1.6%, Pure Olive Oil, 15 g. (1/2 oz.), (1 T.)
2.2%, Kosher salt (Morton's coarse Kosher salt), 20 g. (2/3 oz.), (1 T. plus 1 t.)
100%, Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour, 907.2 oz. (2 lbs.), (a bit less than 3 3/4 c.)

If ADY (active dry yeast) is substituted for the fresh yeast, the amount to use would be 1/6 oz. (4.72 g.), or 1 1/4 t. I would proof it separately in a small amount of the total water. If IDY (instant dry yeast) is used, the amount to use would be 1/9 oz. (3.15 g.), or a bit over 1 t. My recollection is that the IDY at A16 is proofed in water, although it ordinarily can be added directly to the flour.

I think the instructions in the article could have been a bit clearer. Specifically, in the fourth paragraph of the instructions which talks about letting the dough balls set for a day, I believe it is intended that the dough balls set in the refrigerator, not at room temperature. I don't think the dough balls could tolerate a full day at room temperature. This interpretation seems consistent with the following paragraph which talks about bringing the dough balls "back to room temperature.."

Peter


Offline friz78

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #224 on: October 19, 2005, 05:53:44 PM »
There is certainly nothing earth shattering in this recipe.  More proof that the real key is in the dough handling and oven temperature.  The one thing that did seem somewhat interesting that I haven't done before is the recommended 5-6 hour room temperature rise after a full day refrigeration.  I'm not sure that this would have a huge impact on the outcome, but it is a bit different than the usual 1-2 hour room temperature rise after refrigeration.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2005, 05:59:47 PM by friz78 »

Offline AP

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #225 on: January 20, 2006, 03:40:52 AM »
I got my caputo flour today.  I'm going out of town this weekend but couldn't wait to whip up some dough for Sunday night.  My observations thus far are that the hydrating of caputo 00 is far different from what I am used to with KASL.  I made one ball at 58% and another at 55%.  What a difference 3% makes.  Perhaps I weighed something wrong.  The paper Forno Bravo put in with the order has a recipe that has what appears to be about a 50% hydration.  Is this why?

Also...I believe it was giotto who mentioned knowing the source of Trader Joe's pizza dough.  I am dying to know!  I used that stuff for over a year straight.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #226 on: January 20, 2006, 07:34:23 AM »
AP,

If you purchased your Caputo 00 flour from FornoBravo, I believe what you have is the Caputo Extra 00, which is lower in protein content than the other Caputo 00 flours. It has 9.5% protein versus 10.5-11.5% for the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour that most of our members have been using (the Caputo Red is even higher). Although it is possible to "squeeze" a lot of water into any flour if you try hard and long enough, generally speaking a lower protein flour will have a lower absorption ratio (hydration) than a higher protein flour. That may account for the 50% figure you quoted.

As for the Trader Joe's dough, having worked with giotto to reverse engineer it, I recall his mentioning that Il Fornaio is the source of the Trader Joe's dough: See Reply #17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,798.0.html. You can also see our reverse engineering efforts at the related thread: "Trader joe's Question" (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2036.0.html) if you'd like to try your hand at replicating it.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 20, 2006, 07:38:03 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline AP

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #227 on: January 20, 2006, 01:47:00 PM »
Great.  Where do I get the caputo pizza flour everyone has?  I'm glad I didn't buy 50lbs!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #228 on: January 20, 2006, 03:10:33 PM »
AP,

I didn’t mean to suggest that the Caputo Extra 00 can’t be used to make pizza dough. It can. But it is lower in protein content than the Caputo Pizzeria 00 flour, and may be better suited for short fermentation times. If you are still interested in the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour, you may want to look locally around the SF area where you now live. Maybe one of our members can help identify a source, or you may check out the distributors list at http://fornobravo.com/brick_oven_cooking/pizza_ingredients/caputo_distributors.html and see if any of them in your area will sell to you on a cash-and-carry basis (many won’t). There are a couple of online sources for the Caputo 00 pizzeria flour that I am aware of, at pennmac.com and chefswarehouse.com. Also, PennMac sells the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour in repackaged 5-lb. bags. I believe they are the only ones who do that at the present.

BTW, it’s a 55-lb. bag (25 kilos), not 50-lbs :).

Peter

Offline pietradoro

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #229 on: January 20, 2006, 08:00:49 PM »
AP,

I didn’t mean to suggest that the Caputo Extra 00 can’t be used to make pizza dough. It can. But it is lower in protein content than the Caputo Pizzeria 00 flour, and may be better suited for short fermentation times. ...

I have used the Caputo Extra Blue 00 for quite some time now, and can safely state that it easily sails past three days cold fermentation without a hitch.  I'm thinking that its 9.5% protein does not imply that Caputo Extra Blue 00 is a short-fermentation-only flour.  I realize that you may not actually be concluding that, but I just wanted to clarify a possible misapprehension about the Extra Blue.   :)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #230 on: January 20, 2006, 08:48:59 PM »
pietradoro,

Thanks for your comment and clarification. What I was referring to by my comment was a room temperature fermentation and that the Extra is on the shorter end of the fermentation scale--just as I tend to view the Bel Aria 00. Out of habit, I tend to think of room temperature fermentation for the 00 flours rather than cold fermentation, but I should have been clearer on that point. As for differences between the Extra and the Pizzeria 00, pizzanapoletana agreed that the Extra was a weaker flour, but that you would not notice much difference unless you went for a really long fermentation dough (again, at room temperature). All else being equal, however, I think it is fair to say that a higher protein flour will tolerate a longer fermentation than a lower protein flour. At least, that is my understanding from all that I have read.

Peter

Offline pietradoro

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #231 on: January 21, 2006, 09:28:32 AM »
Peter,

Thanks for clarifying that.  I should have know you were indicating room temperature fermentation, and not cold.  And, of course, that is probably true about room-temperature fermentation with the Caputo 00s and the protein levels, though I have never tried very long room temperature fermentations with either the Caputo Extra Blue or the Pizzeria.  I have done 8 hours+ - with no noticeable difference between the two flours, but I suppose that is not "long," just the usual same-day dough that is common to many pizzerie.  Are you saying that the Caputo Extra Blue wouldn't hold up for a same-day rise, an overnight room-temperature rise, or both?

Also, sorry if this Caputo thing has gone a bit off-topic.  Feel free to move it. 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #232 on: January 21, 2006, 09:55:17 AM »
pietradoro,

It's a little bit off-topic but since the Caputo Extra and Pizzeria flours can both be used for cold fermentation applications, including the types of doughs discussed on this thread, I think it is appropriate to keep it here. Also, the principles are generic.

To answer your question, I think that the Caputo Extra is likely to behave similarly to a low-protein 00 flour like the Bel Aria. That suggests to me that you have to watch the dough carefully to be sure that it doesn't overferment. I am talking here of room temperature fermentation. I have had Bel Aria doughs start to weaken (recede) after 8 hours of room temperature fermentation. Of course, it depends on how much yeast is used, water temperature, room temperature, etc.  An overnight room-temperature fermentation might be too long, depending, again, on all the factors mentioned above. By controlling the amount of yeast used (a small amount), the water temperature (on the cool side), and finished dough temperature (below 75-80 degrees F), you should be able to extend the total fermentation time. Of course, at certain times of year, like in the middle of summer, doing this gets tougher unless you get your room temperature down also.

These are the kinds of things you have to play around with to get right. Unfortunately, as things change, you have to figure out how to counteract the changes. So, you will be kept on your toes a lot. Using cold fermentation is a more controllable process from a dough management standpoint, which is why I think that many pizza places that specialize in Neapolitan doughs, including A16, use it. Cold fermentation is more conducive to inventory control also. For example, with room-temperature Neapolitan-style doughs, what do you do at the end of the day with the unused dough if you don't have the option of refrigerating it?

Peter

Offline Shin

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #233 on: February 02, 2006, 11:57:00 AM »
Dear A16 (Reverse) Engineers,

This is a great thread with excellent posts. However I'm confused as to where we have got to in getting an A16 clone.

There's been countless suggestions and experiments but the current state of affairs is not clearly stated.

May I suggest a new thread or an updated post with the closest formula to date with supporting information on whats lacking ?

There's alot of talk on the dough - which seemingly is the most difficult part in the excercise, but what about the sauce - is that a close enough match?

It would be a shame to end such an exciting and potentialy rewarding excercise having acquired so much information.

"It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that they are difficult"

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #234 on: February 02, 2006, 01:04:02 PM »
Shin,

It's been quite a while but my recollection is that those of us who were most active on the A16 thread and did a good part of the experimenting, including friz78, giotto and myself (and with valuable input from pizzanapoletana and pieguy), ended up with a formulation that was perhaps reasonably close to the A16 dough, at least on paper, but none of us had a high-temperature wood-fired oven to be able to go the final step. That is when I and others started experimenting with using dried dairy whey, diastatic malt, damaged starch, sugar, etc., as ways of compensating for the fact that we did not have suitable ovens to make classically authentic Neapolitan style pizzas. I personally learned a lot from the many experiments I did along those lines, and have successfully used what I learned elsewhere, but the experiments could not replace having a high-temperature wood-fired oven. I have had Neapolitan style pizzas made at high oven temperatures and they were far better and different from anything I have made in my home oven.

I believe the final formulation, before venturing off into things like dried dairy whey, etc., was the formulation posted at Reply #133, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.120.html. Someone who both has a high-temperature wood-fired oven and has been to A16 would be the one to tell us whether the finished crust using the abovementioned formulation met the test. So far, no one has stepped up to the challenge or reported back to us on the results achieved.

We did not focus as much on the sauce because sauces for Neapolitan pizzas, as well as toppings, are fairly standard and quite simple, usually DOP San Marzano tomatoes (hand crushed or made into a more traditional sauce), buffalo mozzarella cheese (or fresh cow's milk mozzarella cheese), fresh basil, a bit of oil (seed oil or olive oil), maybe a bit of sea salt, plus whatever other toppings that one might elect to use from those most commonly used in Naples.

Peter


Offline Shin

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #235 on: February 02, 2006, 03:26:20 PM »
Peter

Many thanks for your informative reply - Not sure if I'll ever get a chance to visit A16 in SF but I'll put all the hard work put in by all the pm contributors to good use!

Kind Regards

Shin
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Offline scott r

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #236 on: February 02, 2006, 03:54:30 PM »
Although I don't have a proper wood burning oven, I do have a modified oven that cooks on the cleaning cycle at around 750.  I actually think my oven is probably even a little hotter than what the a16 oven was fired at when I was there.  I have tried the formulation in post 133 on numerous occasions, and can definitely say that the texture of the crust I made with the direction of this thread turned out much better than what I had at a16.  The flavor of the crust seemed to be about the same.

I think you guys have nailed the recipe, and I would call your recipe spot on, or maybe even an improvement.  Obviously you have to have the right oven, and the right kneading skills to get this "recipe" right.  Remember that atmospheric conditions can really alter what you need to do to a dough formulation.

In their defense (I guess), The pies I had at A16 did not look like some of the pics I have seen.  What I had there had less spot charring, so I think it was a cool night for their oven. 

I found the sauce to be really tasty there, and I think the Ital brand tomatoes are excellent.

Offline abatardi

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #237 on: February 08, 2006, 07:23:29 PM »
Finally caved in and got some more caputo from forno bravo.. I tried the A16 dough recipe last night and it worked great, even in a 500 degree oven.  Lots of oven spring and good texture/flavor and also some browning. 

Yet to see how it will work with my oven on the clean cycle.  I've already gone through 2 stones (one lasted me all of one use) so now waiting for my fibrament stone to get here from bakingstone.com to see if that will stand up to the heat better.  *fingers crossed*

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #238 on: February 08, 2006, 07:43:33 PM »
aba,

I believe that the Caputo 00 flour that Forno Bravo is selling is the Extra Blue, which is lower in protein (9.5%) than the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour (11.5-12.5%). I haven't tried the Extra Blue but I believe it is like the Bel Aria 00 flour, which I have used and gotten pretty good results in a home oven. In any event, I am glad to hear that the flour you used worked well in the A16 clone recipe.

Peter

Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF
« Reply #239 on: February 09, 2006, 05:28:11 AM »
The Caputo extra blue is indeed lower in protein, but not so much in gluten. The protein indicator is usefull at times but not always true. Not all protein are gluten forming in flours, and certanly the caputo extra blue is much stronger then a home use Bel'aira or other 00 flours.

IMO however, is not suitable to do a softer Pizza Napoletana, as well as that flour (Caputo extra) is studied for dry bread (Freselle).

CIao


 



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