Re-Engineering A16 pizza in SF

[Pete-zza]

Peter,

Neither do I know how it'll turn out but it might be worth a shot.

So you think adding 25gr/35gr(rounded up) to the dough would be better than the entire 168gr?

Mike,


I am not sure I follow your math but 15% of 603.8 grams of flour is 90.57 grams of old dough, and 20% of 603.8 grams of flour is 120.08 grams. If you add too much old dough, apart from its effects on total yeast and total hydration, it can adversely affect the strength of the dough and also add too much flavor to the finished crust. There may also be effects on the texture of the finished crust.

Peter

[Essen1]

Whoops, my bad. 

I thought you meant 15%-20% from the 168gr. I think I'll go with the 120 gr. If it proves to be too much, I can always scale it down with the next batch. I like experimenting and trying new formulas. 

Thanks for your help, Peter. I'll report back how it turned out. Hopefully it won't be too bad.

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

The principal drawback of the old dough method for home pizza makers is that you have to keep the process going for a series of dough batches. Artisan pizza makers (and bread makers) can do that as part of their business, but most home pizza makers cannot. At some point, something happens to break the link. Of course, you can always take a piece of dough from an unrelated dough formulation and use that as old dough for another dough formulation.

Peter

[Essen1]

Peter,

I found this on a different forum:

Professor Raymond Calvel said that using prefermented dough is the best way to arrive at a full flavor with a good after taste. He suggested using 45% and up to 170% of the total flour weight of prefermented dough. The dough mix can be aged 3-4 hours and used as prefermented and up to 12 hours at room temp. or refrigerated for up to 36 hours before use.

In one video I saw of him using this process, he removed roughly 30% of a batch he had just mixed and set it aside for the next batch's pat fermente. I was surprised at the large amount but if you are making the same bread day after day it really is just a planning consideration. 30% of the current batch was made from 30% of the previous days batch. He is shown cutting it into small 1 Lb pieces while adding it into a 80 qt mixer.

Remember the amount of salt that will be in the preferment so you don't mistakenly end up with too much.  Hope this helps. I use this method all the time and I get great results.

Although it is for bread making, I'm sure the same principle could be applied to a pizza dough.

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

I follow Didier Rosada's numbers for prefermented dough, which is a range of 10-180% of the total formula flour. However, according to Rosada, 40-50% is more common. I tend to use smaller amounts of preferments because I do not want to get powerful "sourdough" flavors in the finished crust. I like those flavors in a sourdough bread, but not in a pizza crust. You should know fairly quickly if you like the flavor of your pizza crust.

Peter

[Pizza Rustica]

November,

I used a Williams and Sonoma standard measuring cup. Approx. 1 3/4" deep with 3 1/4" diameter.

[Essen1]

Peter,

Here's the formula I used for the A16 dough. I had to stick with KABF, though, since the older, fermented dough was made with it. Plus, I increased the hydration a bit.

516 gr  KABF  (100%)
325 gr Water (63%)
15 gr   Salt     (2.9%)
10 gr  EVOO   (1.9%)
  1 gr  ADY      (0.19%)

Total: 867 gr.

Plus, I added 100 gr old dough to it (19%), which brings it to 967gr total. I'm shooting for three 280 gr dough balls. That'll leave me with 127gr new "old" dough to add to a new batch.

I did a 24hr cold-rise and am currently doing a 3hr RT before dividing it into three balls and giving it another 3hr rest.

The aroma so far is incredible. I'll have some pics either tonight or tomorrow.

[Essen1]

Last night I had my first shot at the A16 dough.

Even though I was too impatient to let the dough do the recommended 3-day cold-rise it turned out exceptionally well, in terms of texture and taste.

I also added some older, fermented dough to the mix and after a 30 hr proofing period, the aroma was great. The crust itself had nice oven spring, great taste and was overall very airy and light.

I didn't have enough Caputo 00 pizza flour left, so I had to use KABF. The next A16 batch will include Cap 00 Pizza.

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

The pizzas look good. It will be interesting to see your results when you use the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, both with and without the old dough, and with a three-day fermentation. Do you plan to make a Caputo 00 old dough?

Peter

[Essen1]

Peter,

Thanks.

Once I get the new shipment of Caputo 00 in from Pennmac, I'll use Cap 00 old dough in a batch following the next one. The older, fermented dough added a nice touch to the crust. I can't point my finger on it in terms of what exactly it is, but it made a difference. Just the smell alone was different from any other dough I've made so far. Even the ones where I used fresh yeast in it.

I also think that I need to adjust to using less toppings. 

[Pete-zza]

Mike,

I suppose the ultimate test is one between a pizza made using the A16 dough formulation, with or without old dough, and a pizza made at the A16 restaurant itself.

Peter

[Essen1]

Peter,

I guess that's the only way to find out. It's been awhile but I think I have to get my butt over there and check it out again.

[Essen1]

Peter,

I forgot to mention that I will stick to the recipe from A16's cookbook and will measure in volumes rather than percentages with the next batch.

However, when my Ex-GF and I went to A16, shortly after they opened in 2004, Christophe Hille was still the Executive Chef. Hopefully, the recipe hasn't changed because from what I remember, the pizzas were outstanding. The reason I remember that is because my then-girlfriend was from Jersey and she was extremely proud of the East Coast pizzas. After A16, she succumbed. 

The funny thing is, even to this day, she loves the occasional NYC-style pie from Cybelle's in SF. Don't ask me why, though.

[andreguidon]

the pie looks great !!!

this was a cold fermentation right ?

[Essen1]

Andre,

I did a 24hr cold-rise, a 3 hr bulk at RT and a 3 hr RT rise for the individual dough balls.

I was too impatient, though.  It should have been a 3-day cold ferment.

[fazzari]

Mike,
In viewing the recipe and procedures for the A16, I was most fascinated with the mixing steps.  If I remember right this dough is mixed for "about" 22 minutes with a 5 minute rest in the middle.  Although I realize the mix times are approximate, they seem very long.  Did you follow this step of the recipe??

I made a batch on Sunday, using the mixing times and Peter's first calculations of the recipe.  Baked them this evening.  WOW! is all I can say.  Not only does the dough just about open up itself, the bottom is a nice brown with specks and blotches of dark, crispy, and chewy.  My biggest problem is that I have nothing to compare against, so I can only judge but what I think the pictures I see taste like..I really need smellovison I guess.

John

[Essen1]

John,

I'm glad it turned out great for you. 

I haven't followed A16's mixing regimen. I also added an older, fermented piece of dough to the batch. It Pizzas turned out great as well. I just need to use less toppings.

How did you bake it? Home oven?

[andreguidon]

Hi Mike,

Was the bulk RT after or before the 24h cold fermentation ?

thanks again.....

iam starting my WFO next week, so iam very excited whit these Hi temp formulas.......

[Pete-zza]

In viewing the recipe and procedures for the A16, I was most fascinated with the mixing steps.  If I remember right this dough is mixed for "about" 22 minutes with a 5 minute rest in the middle.  Although I realize the mix times are approximate, they seem very long. 

John,

The question of mix/knead times comes up often in the context of a Neapolitan 00 dough. The VPN disciplinaire document itself, a translation of which can be seen at http://www.fornobravo.com/vera_pizza_napoletana/VPN_spec.html, calls for a 10 minute plus 20 minute mix/knead combination. That combination is intended to be with respect to mixers that are used in Italy (and Naples) and not to apply to planetary mixers, which are rarely used in Naples for pizza dough but is the most common type of mixer used in the U.S. for pizza (and bread) dough. Unfortunately, many people have taken that 10/20 combination literally and are using it with planetary mixers. Moreover, some cookbook authors, such as Pamela Sheldon Johns in her pizza cookbook, Pizza Napoletana!, uses the 10/20 combination for an all-purpose/pastry flour blend intended to emulate 00 flour, which shouldn't require a total of 30 minutes to properly develop the gluten. (Her book does not have a 00 dough recipe even though, as a resident of Italy for several years, she was fully aware of the 00 flour and its use.)

The long knead times originally promulgated in the VPN document were for 00 flours and was specified to properly and sufficiently develop the small amount of gluten formed in that flour. However, as noted by Marco (pizzanapoletana) at Reply 116 at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13378.html#msg13378 --with particular reference to A16 when Chef Halle was there-- it isn't always necessary to use the full 10/20 combination.

Peter

[Essen1]

John,

I agree with Peter. 22 mins, or even 30 mins, of total mixing time with a planetary mixer such as the KitchenAid is too long.

Andre,

The RT rise comes after the cold-rise.