Author Topic: When your Dough Collapses  (Read 3872 times)

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Offline LaheyDisciplenNica

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When your Dough Collapses
« on: February 15, 2011, 02:31:11 PM »
Hey Guys have lurked for a while and decided to join the land of the experts.

So a question I have been using variations of Laheys No knead pizza dough and letting it cold rise for 24 to 48 hours with pretty decent results.
Flour Gold All Purpose WW flour 3.5 cups 2.5 Ap flour
3.5 Cups water (which is more than lahey but due to ww flour)
1 Teaspoon Active Dry Yeast(I know its more than lahey calls for but I had read that ww needs more. Is this wrong?)
3 Teaspoons Salt

My problem  is when pulled out to room temp rise before cooking the dough had fallen almost completely and was very flat.

My novice opinion is that maybe hydration is too high.


Offline Meatballs

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Re: When your Dough Collapses
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2011, 07:20:28 PM »
There are far more qualified people here to answer this question than I, but...  I think you used way too much yeast and the dough blew out during the long ferment.  My best advice to you is to look at this thread for a Lehmann dough recipe, this is what most people here use.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.0.html

Once you get used to this dough, its performance and reproducibility is awesome.  Whole wheat (WW?), I'll let someone else chime in on that.

Ron

ps the real answer is below
« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 07:30:35 PM by Meatballs »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: When your Dough Collapses
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2011, 07:27:33 PM »
LaheyDisciplenNica,

Can you tell us which specific Lahey no knead dough recipe you started with before you modified it? And can you tell us what kind of measuring cups and spoons you use and how specifically you measure out the two flours (e.g., stir, lift, and level, or scoop and level, scoop and shake, scoop and tap/hit a work surface, or possibly some other method)? And how long did you let the dough sit at room temperature before using?

Peter
« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 07:35:31 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: When your Dough Collapses
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2011, 10:56:58 PM »
WW needs extra water more than extra yeast, imo.

cut that yeast in a third and try it with an extra 5% water
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scott123

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Re: When your Dough Collapses
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2011, 11:03:20 PM »
Theo, you can't take a recipe that's developed to work with white flour, replace the white flour with whole wheat, and expect it to still work.  Jim Lahey and his no-knead approaches are cutting edge/brilliant, but they're not cutting edge/brilliant enough to successfully survive that kind of substitution.

If you're dead set on using whole wheat (advanced pizzamaking/not recommended for beginners) do a search on the forum and find a whole wheat recipe.

Offline LaheyDisciplenNica

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Re: When your Dough Collapses
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2011, 12:10:03 AM »
Thanks for the reply.
Im using a variation of this one:

No-Knead Pizza Dough
Adapted from Jim Lahey, Co.
Makes four 12-inch pizza crusts

3 cups all-purpose or bread flour, more for dusting
teaspoon instant yeast (such as SAF brand)
1 teaspoons salt
1 cups water

I measure the flour out of the bag and shake. I would like to buy a scale but as of right now im in nicaragua and wont be able to get one till I return to the states. I feel i have had some good results even with the ww but would like more consistency in my pies. If you dont mind me assking what changes so much wit the ww flour?

Offline LaheyDisciplenNica

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Re: When your Dough Collapses
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2011, 12:12:28 AM »
Btw Maybe 1 hour at room temp.

scott123

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Re: When your Dough Collapses
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2011, 01:16:33 AM »
Whole wheat flour contains tiny wheat bran particles that are very sharp and cut through the developing gluten. These particles are also flat, which puts them in the way of gluten molecules attempting to form.  Gluten is the framework that gives bread it's volume.

All purpose flour is generally low in protein, the building block from which gluten is formed so you're already starting out in a gluten poor environment.  By adding whole wheat to the equation, it's a one two punch and the volume/oven spring doesn't stand a chance.

Using higher protein whole wheat bread flour might help, but, even then, you've got to have the right recipe and be willing to accept a certain lack of oven spring that whole wheat produces.

I have a theory that grinding WW flour finer, either in the factory or at home, with something like a coffee grinder, might help dull down some of the bran's sharp edges and help achieve better volume in the end product, but, so far, that's just a theory.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 05:01:38 PM by scott123 »

Offline LaheyDisciplenNica

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Re: When your Dough Collapses
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2011, 01:42:56 AM »
Im willing to try your methods! Maybe for this weekends firing I will grind the whole wheat any idea on how much or for how long. I Have had some really nice crumbs even with the ww flour but I noticed that was after the oven had reached a substantial level of heat. Im slightly limited on flour choices also(Wish i could get 00). Next time I go to the bakery supply store Im gonna try to buy what the owner called a mediterranean flour which I think is of higher quality.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: When your Dough Collapses
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2011, 05:28:16 PM »
Theo,

The Lahey dough recipe you based your whole wheat version on is the one described in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7745.msg66537.html#msg66537. As you will note there, the dough made using that recipe uses a fairly small amount of yeast and is fermented at room temperature. Altering that dough recipe to use whole wheat flour, more yeast, and cold fermentation can be done, just as you attempted, but it will usually take a fair amount of experimentation to achieve the desired results. However, others before you have attempted to modify the Lahey pizza dough recipe to incorporate whole wheat flour, just as they did with Lahey's no knead bread dough, as you will see, for example, at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7745.msg67301.html#msg67301.

I am not sure what "Gold All-Purpose ww flour" is (Gold Medal whole wheat flour?) and what brand of all-purpose flour you are using (Gold Medal all-purpose flour?), but I took the information you provided, did some data conversions, used the closest flours in the list of flours given in the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.unclesalmon.com/, and used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the following baker's percent version of your recipe:

Flour Blend (100%):
Water (62.5214%):
ADY (0.39955%):
Salt (1.7699%):
Total (164.69085%):
946.07 g  |  33.37 oz | 2.09 lbs
591.49 g  |  20.86 oz | 1.3 lbs
3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
16.74 g | 0.59 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
1558.09 g | 54.96 oz | 3.43 lbs | TF = N/A

There is no way to know for sure if the above dough formulation accurately reflects what you have been doing but if it does, then it is quite possible that your hydration is on the low side. You didn't indicate how you made the dough, that is, by hand or by using a machine, but almost 3 1/2 pounds of dough is a lot of dough to knead by hand or using a standard KitchenAid type mixer.

The best I can offer is to suggest that you play around with the amounts of ingredients. However, you will have to significantly increase the hydration if you are after a Lahey no knead type of dough. If my numbers are correct or nearly so, then I think your ADY quantity should work for a 24-48 hour cold fermented dough. There is no way to know for sure what caused the dough to fall apart when you were ready to use it.

Peter



Offline LaheyDisciplenNica

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Re: When your Dough Collapses
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2011, 12:39:08 AM »
Hey appreciate the reply. Yes you nailed it gold medal all purpose ww flour. The standard flour is a nicaraguan brand that I am able to obtain. As far as mixing it I did not and used the no knead priniciple. What percents of hydration should i look for with that? 75% seemed to be popular in the thread you mentioned. Secondly you think I should lower the yeast as some have stated? Im shooting for a neo type crust. On sunday I plan to try again so I will post results.

Offline LaheyDisciplenNica

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Re: When your Dough Collapses
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2011, 04:50:09 PM »
Hey I picked up a new flour I will try this weekend. Here are some numbers what do you think?
Strong flour

Flour made from durum wheat. They are mainly used for making bread simple bread mold (box), among others.

MONIS manufactures and markets the following brands and strong flour.

Brand      Presentation
Canyon          50 kg, 100 and 50 pounds
Gold Star      100 lbs

Features strong flour

Color   :   Creamy white
Absorption   :   60% - 61%
% Ash   :   0.59% - 0.62%
% Moisture   :   12.5% - 14%
% Protein   :   12.5% - 14%

Monisa is the company.

scott123

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Re: When your Dough Collapses
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2011, 05:14:00 PM »
Theo, in a quality flour, the protein content shouldn't vary a percentage point and a half. That being said, 12.5-14% is an excellent ballpark for pizza flour and I have no doubt that this will substantially outperform the AP WW you were using- at least, for NY style, which seems to be the recipe you're using.  For Neapolitan, 12.5% is good, but 14... not so much.  There's also the question as to whether or not the flour is malted. Malt is appropriate for NY style, but, generally speaking, not for Neapolitan.

Does the flour lists the ingredients?

Earlier you mentioned 'firing' your oven.  Are you using a wood fired oven?  If, not what kind of oven are using and what's it's max temp?  That will dictate whether or not you'll be able to make Neapolitan pizza.

Offline LaheyDisciplenNica

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Re: When your Dough Collapses
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2011, 07:53:15 PM »
What i have been doing is a combo of AP and GMWW pretty much 50-50. Ingred
Flour,Iron,Niacin,Thiamine,Riboflavin and folic acid.

Firing yeah I have a brick oven non mortared and have been acheving temps of 800 or so. I use firewood to get it up to temp.

scott123

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Re: When your Dough Collapses
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2011, 08:16:33 PM »
Now we're getting somewhere  ;D

I really think, at some point, it's worth starting from scratch with a proven ww/bread flour blended Neapolitan recipe, but, for now, if you're relatively happy with your current crumb and just want to improve it a bit, then here's what I'd do.

On your next batch, swap out the AP with Strong flour (50/50 Strong flour/WW)

On the batch following that, try grinding the WW flour in a spice grinder (a coffee grinder reserved for spices only). I would grind it in small batches, being careful not to overheat the flour- I'm thinking maybe 20 seconds.

Offline LaheyDisciplenNica

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Re: When your Dough Collapses
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2011, 08:47:41 PM »
Yeah i want to get something that I can feel comfortable not changing. The main reason I use laheys recipe is I dont have a mixer. I have used the Cooks Illustrated thin crust recipe and enjoyed it thoroughly also but thats another bag of worms. I will post pics throughout the door to finish so you can help me diagnose.

Offline LaheyDisciplenNica

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Re: When your Dough Collapses
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2011, 03:54:15 AM »
Hey guys btw how long of a cold ferment would be best 24,36 or 48?

Offline LaheyDisciplenNica

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Re: When your Dough Collapses
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2011, 04:01:27 AM »
Sorry for asking so many questions but also noted some suggested I use more hydration for a lahey type of dough but his seems to only call for 50% I aplogize if some ignorance is not allowing me to understand.

3 Cups flour
1.5 of water

scott123

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Re: When your Dough Collapses
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2011, 10:06:14 AM »
Hey guys btw how long of a cold ferment would be best 24,36 or 48?

Longer ferments (with less yeast) tend to favor enzyme activity, which, in turn, favors sugar production. Longer ferments also favor byproducts, leading to a more flavorful crust.  With Neapolitan, you have to be careful of the residual sugar in the dough- too much and the crust will burn very quickly.  I would, for now, stick to a 24 hour ferment. You'll want to use enough yeast so that the dough doubles during that time. You can use Lahey's original recipe as a starting point for yeast quantity, but you're still going to have to watch the dough to see when it doubles.  It really helps if you don't have an exact time when the pizzas need to be baked. If the yeast quantity is too much, then you'll need to move up the bake time. If it's too little, you can compensate, to an extent, by removing the dough from the fridge earlier.  If it's way too little and the dough has barely risen, you can remove the dough from the fridge and put it in a warm place. Be aware, though, that the warmer the dough gets, the faster the yeast will multiply, so your window of usability will shrink a bit.

Your variations- more water and more yeast- I'm not so sure about.  No knead breads favor very high hydrations, but neapolitan pizza dough is a different beast.  High 50s is pretty typical. Adding more yeast to 'compensate' for WW- not something I'd recommend. I know that I said stick with your original recipe before, but, the more that I look at it, the more I'm tempted to recommend a complete overhaul.

I highly suggest going back to the basics:

Strong Flour (50%):    174.14 g  |  6.14 oz | 0.38 lbs | 1 C. + 1/4 C. + 2 T.*
WW Flour (50%):    174.14 g  |  6.14 oz | 0.38 lbs | 1 C. + 1/4 C. + 2 T. + 1 t. *
Water (room temp) (60%):    208.97 g  |  7.37 oz | 0.46 lbs | 3/4 C. + 2 T. + 2 t.
IDY (.4%):    1.39 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.46 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Salt (2%):       6.97 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Total (162.4%):   565.6 g | 19.95 oz | 1.25 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   282.8 g | 9.98 oz | 0.62 lbs
Yield: Two 12" crusts

Bowl 1: Add yeast to water and whisk to dissolve. Bowl 2: Combine salt and flour. Dry into wet.  Mix until dough forms a ball and then knead for 3 more minutes (about 4 minutes total). Split dough in half, ball each portion and place in lightly oiled, clear covered containers. Refrigerate for 24 hours. Remove from fridge and allow to come to room temp for 4-6 hours before baking.

*Spoon and level method (see image below)

Like I said before, the yeast quantity is just a guesstimate.  I've also purposely scaled this down to a two ball recipe for testing purposes.  If you can, don't multiply it by 4 and make eight crusts in the wood fired oven just yet.  Make the dough today, taking lots of photos, then take photos of it 24 hours later and post them here. Make sure you get a shot of the bottom of the 24 hour dough.  Once you post the photos, that will confirm the quantity of yeast (and kneading, and other aspects). We'll fine tune it and then you should be ready to make the dough for real. Either toss the test dough or form it into a loaf and try baking it in a regular oven. I'm aware that it's the weekend and you probably have plans to fire the oven, so if you absolutely have to go with the old way, I understand, but, bear in mind, that, until you approach the dough in a truly Neapolitan manner (as opposed to a highly modified NY recipe), it won't be the best it can be.

Lastly, baker's percentages are by weight.  A cup of flour is a lot lighter than a cup of water, so 1.5 C. of water weighs more than half of 3 C. of flour.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 10:18:21 AM by scott123 »

Offline LaheyDisciplenNica

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Re: When your Dough Collapses
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2011, 12:43:59 PM »
Thanks for the help scott okay i will try what you said with the test dough yet iam still curious about this modded Lahey so i will test both side by side in small portions and let you get a look.