Author Topic: When your Dough Collapses (Read 2739 times)

LaheyDisciplenNica · « **Reply #20 on:** February 18, 2011, 12:51:52 PM »

Also I planned on testing the diffrence between balling for the 24 hours but maybe you could give me insight before also what is the difference between that and a bulk rise.

LaheyDisciplenNica · « **Reply #21 on:** February 19, 2011, 02:57:33 PM »

All have been in fridge for 21 hours(I know its a little early but i will be busy until much after 24 hours.

Ok Here is the Standard Lahey Dough immediately and 2 views of rise.
What do you think seems like not a ton of rise.

LaheyDisciplenNica · « **Reply #22 on:** February 19, 2011, 03:03:07 PM »

Next same recipe but with milled ww flour 15 sec in coffee grinder.

LaheyDisciplenNica · « **Reply #23 on:** February 19, 2011, 03:07:11 PM »

Finally your suggested dough.

Ok what you think?

scott123 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 20, 2011, 07:57:38 AM »

1. Standard Lahey

What flour is that? Do you see the way the top of the dough has flattened out and is a little bumped? This is classic symptom of a dough well past it's prime. It also looks a lot like weak flour.

2. Milled WW

This looks pretty good. Do you see how the top is still curved? The gluten still has some strength. The bottom looks great, but the side looks a bit underfermented. I would take this out of the fridge a bit earlier and leave it out longer and/or next time, use a tiny bit more yeast for a 24 hour fermentation.

3. My Suggestion

I hate to toot my own horn

but that looks just about right. Lots of bubbles on the bottom, lots of bubbles on the side and a nice smooth top.

I'm aware that these are three different recipes, so the dough balls are different sizes, but, even taking that into consideration, everything feels a bit inconsistent. I know that you're measuring by volume (for now), so that's probably part of it, but I think there's something else. Are you using the same temperature water for every batch? Are you kneading it with a similar motion for close to the same amount of time?

The grinding looks like it might have helped. It has all the attributes of a stronger dough and is showing no signs of bran damage. I would try the suggested dough with a grind next- and I think you're at a point where you could probably fire up the oven and bake the next batch.

LaheyDisciplenNica · « **Reply #25 on:** February 20, 2011, 01:28:34 PM »

Once again thanks for the help Scott. They are all using the same flour so its weird that the plain had those results. The 2 lahey doughs i followed his instructions completely no knead at all. On yours i followed your instructions. As far as how they felt was intresting. 1 as much easier to shape than the usual lahey but still came apart. 2. Was leaps and bounds easier to stretch out but still tore. 3. Yours was by far the best and I was able to push its limits real far I loved working with it.

As far as the water its all sitting out at the same temp so I dont think that is it. Other guesses?
I mixed up a batch of yours for tonight and I will show you pics also along with some of the product. Next time I will mill the dough that goes in yours.
As soon as I get comfy I want to attempt an UPN type dough,that will definitely be after I have a scale though.

scott123 · « **Reply #26 on:** February 21, 2011, 01:57:05 AM »

Theo, even though Lahey's recipes are called 'no knead,' from what I've seen, most of them have a little kneading. If you don't knead the dough briefly, the ingredients aren't sufficient mixed, and you get dry and wet areas of the dough, which, in turn will create weak spots/tearing when you form the skin.

I'm guessing that the mixing action you used on the first dough might have been a little less aggressive than the second- that's probably why the two produced such varying strength in the fermented doughs. Whatever the reason, I wouldn't worry about it, since my suggested dough seems to be performing well for you.

I'm curious, were you able to stretch the last dough to 12 inches?

LaheyDisciplenNica · « **Reply #27 on:** February 21, 2011, 01:32:27 PM »

Yes your dough wa able to reach 12 inches I rolled out and used yesterday.
Attached are some pics I did burn them a little due to the heat.
I think I got used to the 48 hour ferment flavor so I think I missed that in the 24 hour. Is there a way to decrease yeast as to allow those flavors to develop? Sorry I forgot to get a pic of the "margherita"( no basil at supermarket)

LaheyDisciplenNica · « **Reply #28 on:** February 21, 2011, 01:33:08 PM »

Forgot one.

scott123 · « **Reply #29 on:** February 21, 2011, 03:29:00 PM »

Theo, something's definitely not right with the size of your dough balls. The test you did earlier with my suggested dough- that looks like a 280 g. dough ball. The stacked containers you just posted look like double batches- if they are, that's way too much dough for a 12" pizza.

You've got an oven that can reach Neapolitan temps, you have a fairly traditional Neapolitan recipe, now you've got to start forming the pizzas like a pro. No more rolling pin. There's a lot of videos out there on hand stretching. If you want, I can post links to a couple good ones.

You can dial back the yeast for a 48 dough, but, because of the increase in sugar, it's most likely going to burn a bit easier. You can dial down the heat of the oven to compensate, but you'll be moving out of the Neapolitan realm. 2 or more day cold ferments are more of a lower temp/longer baked NY style think. If you want to add flavor and complexity to Neapolitan doughs, go with a starter.

If you do go with a 48 hour dough, I'd try cutting the yeast in half and doing a test run with a single ball the first time to see how it ferments.

LaheyDisciplenNica · « **Reply #30 on:** February 21, 2011, 08:11:25 PM »

Haha I did stretch that out by hand. The first batch came out to 12. The second i didn't measure it was your recipe times 3 and I formed 6 balls out of it I just might not have formed them uniformly I guess.Plus I maybe added bench dough gave it more volume. I totally would appreciate the vids though. I'm not good at hand stretching yet though but yours was the easiest to work with.

LaheyDisciplenNica · « **Reply #31 on:** February 24, 2011, 01:21:39 AM »

Making dough for friday night tomorrow. Any suggestions as far as how much starter I should add to the neo recipe from scott? Have been reading starter board but still dont have my head wrapped around. Also if anyone has tips or suggestions including dough stretching Im game. Was thinking of trying the motorino method friday. $:-\$

c0mpl3x · « **Reply #32 on:** February 24, 2011, 01:31:42 AM »

i can stretch dough eyes closed and with one hand tied behind my back, and still toss AND catch it one handed.

in short,

scott123 · « **Reply #33 on:** February 24, 2011, 07:35:30 AM »

Theo, as I've told others, starter is pretty advanced pizzamaking. I think you're making great progress and are well along in your journey, but I would hold off on starter until you've completely mastered non starter based doughs.

While this video is for NY style skin forming, it should work well for Neapolitan as well (ignore the rolling pin part)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjYqw1CLZsA</a>

The slap technique is pretty popular for Neapolitan, but I would probably master the knuckle stretch first. Once you're ready, here a good video on the slap technique:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIqS8c8nmps" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIqS8c8nmps</a>

Pete-zza · « **Reply #34 on:** February 24, 2011, 07:51:27 AM »

Quote from: c0mpl3x on February 24, 2011, 01:31:42 AM

i can stretch dough eyes closed and with one hand tied behind my back, and still toss AND catch it one handed.

c0mpl3x,

At any time do you use a foot and, if so, do your superiors at Papa John's approve of this or is it in the manual?

Peter

c0mpl3x · « **Reply #35 on:** February 24, 2011, 09:53:24 AM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on February 24, 2011, 07:51:27 AM

c0mpl3x,

At any time do you use a foot and, if so, do your superiors at Papa John's approve of this or is it in the manual?

Peter

i put a post-it note on the page of the SOP detailing the procedures of dough slapping

LaheyDisciplenNica · « **Reply #36 on:** February 24, 2011, 02:03:51 PM »

Thx guys especially scott for the knowledge. Gonna try again tmrw so will mixing up some flour tonight. I will post pics so you guys can see the results. $:-\$

LaheyDisciplenNica · « **Reply #37 on:** March 03, 2011, 11:25:29 PM »

Okay So went again last friday. First pic is a lahey that was 50% milled ww and 50% of the strong flour and a 30 min ferm before complete mix. Unfourtanetly that one never got a finished pic as it met the ground.
2nd is yours with a ferm also but only 15 min.
The next three are all yours without the ferm.
The final is the lahey 2hr with only the strong flour as I found out at the last moment I would be having more visitors:p wonder why

The taste of them all was good but as far as ease to work with I think the lahey was the the lightest and fluffiest. Yours had a different feel like it was tougher but was super strong! I was able to do the motorino pull method and I have finally started tossing.

Any opinions or tips? Do you think and 30 min ferm really adds or is it in my mind?

LaheyDisciplenNica · « **Reply #38 on:** March 03, 2011, 11:26:53 PM »

Sorry wouldnt all fit.

scott123 · « **Reply #39 on:** March 07, 2011, 10:52:32 PM »

Theo, when you're baking these pizzas, what temperature is the hearth and the ceiling? How high is the ceiling?

Flour and yeast are pretty cheap- make lots of doughs and use them to practice stretching. It took me at least 40 pizzas before I was able to stretch them thin and evenly. Stretch them until they fail- failing will tell you exactly how far you can take them.

Round dough balls (from round containers) are generally a bit easier to stretch. It's not easy finding the perfect proofing container, but if you can track down round large versions of what you have now, you'll make your life a bit easier.

Are you re-balling the dough after removing it from the container? Is the dough coming out of the container easily?