Author Topic: 00 Flour and bread Flour  (Read 7340 times)

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Offline forzaroma

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00 Flour and bread Flour
« on: February 17, 2011, 08:55:24 AM »
I am making my pizza using my home oven that gets up to 550, and I know using straight Caputo 00 will not do well in this type of oven and I have been using bread flour. What are the thoughts of maybe mixing in bread flour with the 00? If yes what percentage should be the 00 and what % should the bread flour be. I am thinking 75-25 bread to 00.


Offline pizzablogger

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2011, 10:37:09 AM »
75-25 is as good a starting place as any. I'd make several pies with this mix to establish a baseline and then add in more Caputo over ensuing batches, in say 10%, increments until you get to a point where you are unsatisfied with the bake.

Good luck and post some pics!

--K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline forzaroma

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2011, 10:58:38 AM »
Are you pizzablogger from Twitter? I am ilcornicione lol

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2011, 03:16:58 PM »
Forzaroma,  I have used anywhere from 25%-60% 00 blended with HG bromated flour to make some very good crusts.  These were baked from 2.5-3.5m.    Good luck and please don't forget to post up some pictures. 

Chau

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2011, 04:28:10 PM »
Are you pizzablogger from Twitter? I am ilcornicione lol

Unfortunately yes, we are one and the same  :-[

I have used a KABF, MC00 mix in pizzas on multiple occasions (my square pizza uses these flours in combination as well) in the past on a regular oven bake. Personally, keeping in mind the recipes and workflow I was utilizing may be very different and my oven is different, I found that a 50-50 mix was about the maximum threshhold of Caputo 00 that "worked" for my tastes....which eventually led me down the path of using just the broiler to cook pies, but that is another story.

But to each their own and good luck with your experiments and post some pictures!

BTW, is your oven gas or electric? --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline forzaroma

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2011, 08:12:59 AM »
I have a gas oven use a stone and it gets up to 550. I need to buy a digital thermometer to get real temp. I will be doing another batch this weekend and will post , I am going to try a different recipe this time.

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2011, 09:49:51 AM »
I have a gas oven use a stone and it gets up to 550. I need to buy a digital thermometer to get real temp. I will be doing another batch this weekend and will post , I am going to try a different recipe this time.

Is the broiler in your oven located in the top of the main oven chamber or is it in a seperate compartment located below the oven? --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline forzaroma

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2011, 10:04:44 AM »
It works  and is in same part as the where i would keep my pizza. I think it would burn cheese before bottom is at right color.

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2011, 12:24:01 PM »
It works  and is in same part as the where i would keep my pizza. I think it would burn cheese before bottom is at right color.

If your broiler reaches a high enough temperature, if you set the stone distance from the broiler correctly (which varies with each oven), utilize a high quality cheese with enough fat content and have a good recipe to fit the high temperature environment, you can cook a very good to excellent Neapolitan style pizza in your home oven....and it will not burn the cheese.

Some pictures of pizzas cooked in a home oven using only the broiler to cook as proof:

A couple of Chau's (Jackie Tran) attempts...his pies always look great!

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11654.msg121374.html#msg121374
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11654.msg123633.html#msg123633

A couple of my attempts with the technique (100% Caputo)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11654.msg112753.html#msg112753
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11654.msg114111.html#msg114111

Because these are my pizzas, I will tell yout they need a lot of work before I am fully happy with the end result.

Of course, last but not least, the thread which shows the master of this technique, Toby (Foolish Poolish) and the Nearlypolitan thread. His pies look, and I bet taste, fantastic:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10024.0.html

Welcome to the nut house. --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell


Offline forzaroma

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2011, 12:30:41 PM »
So how does the bottom get enough color if the heat is coming from the top? For that type of cooking are you using 100 percent caputo? I have been using bread flour and this weekend was planning on doing a mix.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2011, 12:42:07 PM »
Ponzu has also made some great progress in his attempts as well.  Reply #108

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12010.100.html

IMO, making a high quality NP pie in the home oven is a very difficult task, and as such I have only made a few that have been acceptable/average.  My home oven NP pies have much work before I would or could be proud of them.  

Kelly - I really love your 2nd pie.  It is near visually perfect IMO.  Do you recall the (fermentation) workflow you used for that one?  What's your oven setup like?

I have for a long time wanted to duplicate Toby's work.  With many tries, I haven't been able to.  He is still the master of the nearlypolitan.

Chau

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2011, 01:08:13 PM »
Kelly - I really love your 2nd pie.  It is near visually perfect IMO.  Do you recall the (fermentation) workflow you used for that one?  What's your oven setup like?

Thank you Chau.

I have notes at home, but most of my neo-ish doughs are similar to this:

Starter (55% Hydration) taken from fridge and fed.

After a second or third feeding has caused the starter to rise sufficiently and reach a break-point (maturation), I use the levain to make pizza

Hand mixed, , fermented in bulk at ambient temperatures for 16-30 hours (depending on the particular workflow I am tinkering with) and then divided and proofed at ambient temps for an additional 5 hours or so before hitting the oven.

Encase oven rack completely in aluminum foil, place at highest rack position, put stone on top of the foil. The stone is offest so that it is flush against the left side of the oven chamber (not centered under the broiler). It is offset because in my particular oven the broiler flames tend to "whick" downwards, which can be disastrous when an olive oil laden pizza is sitting just 1.5 inches below it. Like the Ohio Players song, "Fiiiiiiirrree..."

Pre-heat oven to max 550F temp. When max temp reached, I turn the broiler on high setting. Within about 15 minutes, the broiler flame reaches between 950F to 850F (depending on flame distance from center or broiler plate). When the stone hits 750, I put a pizza in to cook.

First 20 seconds or so I leave the door closed, but after that I need to open the door and turn the pie every 15-20 seconds or so. Bake times vary between 105 and 120 seconds.

Between pizzas I need to be vigilant...as the stone creeps above 800F, I need to put an inverted baking pan over it to slow done the heat up of the stone or I lose the needed temperature variation to cook the top and bottom of the pie evenly. Sometimes I need to leave the door open to dissapate heat or leave it closed to bring the stone back up to temp if I have let it get too cool.

It's anything but an exact science and I have far from mastered it. Unfortunately for the last year or so I have only had time to make pies about once per month on average. I feel with more time cooking I could do some damage, but I enjoy living vicariously though all of the fantastic pizzas everyone here makes! :)
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline forzaroma

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2011, 01:08:49 PM »
Im wondering those who use the broiler method should I just use caputo as it seems the temp is getting up there. Also are you guys preheating the oven with broiler on the whole time?

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2011, 01:14:50 PM »
Im wondering those who use the broiler method should I just use caputo as it seems the temp is getting up there. Also are you guys preheating the oven with broiler on the whole time?

Pre-heating oven yes, but many ovens will not allow you to have both the heating element and the broiler operating simultaneously.

In addition, does your oven have a convection setting?

As far as flour, yes, you can get enough heat to use 100% Caputo Pizzeria....but keep in mind all ovens are different. At high enough temps, any flour can be used, just a matter of preference at that point. Both 100% Caputo and a blended mix of flours can produce fantastic pizza.
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline forzaroma

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2011, 01:26:50 PM »
i do not think I have convection setting. My damn head is spinning thinking of all the different methods to go about my dough lol. When using a starter or mother how long do you keep it until its ready and how do you know how much t o use in the dough if not using commercial yeast.

Offline PapaJon

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2011, 03:15:00 PM »
I have a gas oven use a stone and it gets up to 550. I need to buy a digital thermometer to get real temp. I will be doing another batch this weekend and will post , I am going to try a different recipe this time.
+1 My own gas oven goes to "550F" at least according to the knob.  I measured the temp after getting a IR Thermometer and my actual temps were 650-730F depending on where I positioned the stone.  This knowledge is critical and would have been impossible to learn without the correct equipment.  If your serious, get one.  ;D
Jon

Offline forzaroma

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2011, 10:51:31 AM »
I guess my oven was no good for Caputo complet failure.


Offline PapaJon

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2011, 10:21:11 PM »
I guess my oven was no good for Caputo complet failure.
Don't lose heart, "The only failure in life is the failure to try".   ;)
Jon

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2011, 12:49:05 PM »
I guess my oven was no good for Caputo complet failure.

Don't blame your oven or the flour.  It took me 2 weeks of failures with caputo in the home oven before I started getting decent results.  I posted about it here.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11015.0.html

Look towards the end at reply #107.  caputo bake in the home oven around 3m. 

Good luck,
Chau

Offline forzaroma

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2011, 08:48:34 AM »
I tried the broiler method but the bottom of my pie was virtually white still but I will go through this thread thanks

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2011, 12:22:10 PM »
I tried the broiler method but the bottom of my pie was virtually white still but I will go through this thread thanks

You did not have enough heat in the stone.

What type of stone are you using?

How long did you let the pizza stone pre-heat before loading a pizza onto it?

Did you pre-heat using the bake cycle or only with the broiler?

How far was the stone from the broiler while cooking?

Do you have an IR Thermometer?

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline forzaroma

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2011, 12:33:14 PM »
You did not have enough heat in the stone.


What type of stone are you using?
I have a nice stone a fibrament 15 1/2  inch 1/2 inch thick

How long did you let the pizza stone pre-heat before loading a pizza onto it?
I was cooking on the stone using reg oven setting with other dough a mix of kabf and 20 percent caputo then I went to 100 percent caputo where I turned on broiler and raised the stone to near broiler

Did you pre-heat using the bake cycle or only with the broiler?
see above

How far was the stone from the broiler while cooking?
about 4 inches

Do you have an IR Thermometer?
No


Offline pizzablogger

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2011, 07:46:27 PM »
There are many variables at play here, but I can tell you that your stone was likely too far from the broiler.

Most of us having some success utilizing the technique have the stone placed so that the top of the stone is anywhere from 1.5" to 2.5" from the broiler.

With regards to your pizza stone:

1. How long did you let the stone heat up before loading the first pizza onto it....meaning once your oven pre-heated to its maximum temperature (usually accompanied by a beep), how long was it from that point until you loaded the first pizza?

2. You moved the stone closer to the broiler after cooking one pizza on it. Did you let the stone cool down at all before moving it?

3. Once you moved the stone closer to the broiler, how long did you let the stone heat-up before loading the 100% Caputo pie onto it?  Did you heat the stone using the ovens bake cycle or with the broiler?

4. How long was the broiler on before you loaded the 100% Caputo pizza onto the stone?

5. Approximately how long was your cook time with the 100% Caputo Pizza?

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline forzaroma

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2011, 08:05:18 PM »
There are many variables at play here, but I can tell you that your stone was likely too far from the broiler.

Most of us having some success utilizing the technique have the stone placed so that the top of the stone is anywhere from 1.5" to 2.5" from the broiler.

With regards to your pizza stone:

1. How long did you let the stone heat up before loading the first pizza onto it....meaning once your oven pre-heated to its maximum temperature (usually accompanied by a beep), how long was it from that point until you loaded the first pizza?
Prob 45 minutes
2. You moved the stone closer to the broiler after cooking one pizza on it. Did you let the stone cool down at all before moving it? No the oen was on bake the whole time

3. Once you moved the stone closer to the broiler, how long did you let the stone heat-up before loading the 100% Caputo pie onto it?  Did you heat the stone using the ovens bake cycle or with the broiler?
I cooked right away so not realy any time at all
4. How long was the broiler on before you loaded the 100% Caputo pizza onto the stone?
Like I said pretty much right away
5. Approximately how long was your cook time with the 100% Caputo Pizza?
More than 5 mins with no color it was a nightmare

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2011, 06:56:09 AM »
Forza, I think it's safe to say you cooked the 100% Caputo flour too soon after cooking the first pizza.

Your stone may have cooled slightly after cooking a pizza on it and then after moving it up in the oven.

In addition, even with the oven at its max setting, it is likely your stone will never reach a high enough heat without aid from the broiler....meaning you need some time with the stone sitting under the broiler as well to help reach a higher heat in the stone. This is one reason it is important to have the stone close to the broiler. You need that broiler heat to be close enough to raise the temp of the stone. --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell