Author Topic: 00 Flour and bread Flour  (Read 5262 times)

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Offline pizzablogger

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2011, 12:22:10 PM »
I tried the broiler method but the bottom of my pie was virtually white still but I will go through this thread thanks

You did not have enough heat in the stone.

What type of stone are you using?

How long did you let the pizza stone pre-heat before loading a pizza onto it?

Did you pre-heat using the bake cycle or only with the broiler?

How far was the stone from the broiler while cooking?

Do you have an IR Thermometer?

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell


Offline forzaroma

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2011, 12:33:14 PM »
You did not have enough heat in the stone.


What type of stone are you using?
I have a nice stone a fibrament 15 1/2  inch 1/2 inch thick

How long did you let the pizza stone pre-heat before loading a pizza onto it?
I was cooking on the stone using reg oven setting with other dough a mix of kabf and 20 percent caputo then I went to 100 percent caputo where I turned on broiler and raised the stone to near broiler

Did you pre-heat using the bake cycle or only with the broiler?
see above

How far was the stone from the broiler while cooking?
about 4 inches

Do you have an IR Thermometer?
No


Offline pizzablogger

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2011, 07:46:27 PM »
There are many variables at play here, but I can tell you that your stone was likely too far from the broiler.

Most of us having some success utilizing the technique have the stone placed so that the top of the stone is anywhere from 1.5" to 2.5" from the broiler.

With regards to your pizza stone:

1. How long did you let the stone heat up before loading the first pizza onto it....meaning once your oven pre-heated to its maximum temperature (usually accompanied by a beep), how long was it from that point until you loaded the first pizza?

2. You moved the stone closer to the broiler after cooking one pizza on it. Did you let the stone cool down at all before moving it?

3. Once you moved the stone closer to the broiler, how long did you let the stone heat-up before loading the 100% Caputo pie onto it?  Did you heat the stone using the ovens bake cycle or with the broiler?

4. How long was the broiler on before you loaded the 100% Caputo pizza onto the stone?

5. Approximately how long was your cook time with the 100% Caputo Pizza?

"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline forzaroma

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2011, 08:05:18 PM »
There are many variables at play here, but I can tell you that your stone was likely too far from the broiler.

Most of us having some success utilizing the technique have the stone placed so that the top of the stone is anywhere from 1.5" to 2.5" from the broiler.

With regards to your pizza stone:

1. How long did you let the stone heat up before loading the first pizza onto it....meaning once your oven pre-heated to its maximum temperature (usually accompanied by a beep), how long was it from that point until you loaded the first pizza?
Prob 45 minutes
2. You moved the stone closer to the broiler after cooking one pizza on it. Did you let the stone cool down at all before moving it? No the oen was on bake the whole time

3. Once you moved the stone closer to the broiler, how long did you let the stone heat-up before loading the 100% Caputo pie onto it?  Did you heat the stone using the ovens bake cycle or with the broiler?
I cooked right away so not realy any time at all
4. How long was the broiler on before you loaded the 100% Caputo pizza onto the stone?
Like I said pretty much right away
5. Approximately how long was your cook time with the 100% Caputo Pizza?
More than 5 mins with no color it was a nightmare

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2011, 06:56:09 AM »
Forza, I think it's safe to say you cooked the 100% Caputo flour too soon after cooking the first pizza.

Your stone may have cooled slightly after cooking a pizza on it and then after moving it up in the oven.

In addition, even with the oven at its max setting, it is likely your stone will never reach a high enough heat without aid from the broiler....meaning you need some time with the stone sitting under the broiler as well to help reach a higher heat in the stone. This is one reason it is important to have the stone close to the broiler. You need that broiler heat to be close enough to raise the temp of the stone. --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline forzaroma

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2011, 08:00:58 AM »
Ok I ordered a new bag of Caputo I am not giving up!

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2011, 09:27:32 AM »
Forza, place an oven rack on the highest position it can go. Place your stone on top of that.

Measure from the top of the stone to the broiler. 

Your oven and required set-up are likely different than mine, but some examples of things to consider for your specific situation:

Here are some quick shots of my oven...it is not set-up for pizza making in the pics.

Picture 1: The oven chamber. As you can see, my oven has the broiler on top. The broiling element has a pipe with holes in it where the flame comes out, with a metal deflector plate above this pipe on either side to help direct heat outwards and down.

Pitcure 2: Close-up of the broiling element. As you can see from the circled part of this photo, my particular oven has flame exit points which point downwards on the part of the broiling element which is closest to the pizza. If your oven is like this, you'll want to pay close attention to this area. In my oven, the flames tend to vary in intensity from this point, causing the flames to occasionally "lick" downwards too far and, at times, ignite any olive oil on the pizza! This is why I offset the stone in my oven when making pies.

Picture 3: My stone placed on the highest rack. From the center point of the broiling element to the top of the stone is exactly 2 inches. When I make pizza, I at times place cut quarry tiles under the stone to close the distance to 1.5 inches. 

Now Scott123 may likely laugh at this because I am wrong, but for the all broiling technique I personally have had success with the thin stone you see pictured. I entirely encase my upper rack in aluminum foil and jam some in the sides and back to restrict air flow between the gaps where the shelf does not meet flush with the oven chamber. My hypothesis is that because this stone has 1/2" of clearance on the bottom because of the supports, enough hot air from the broiler gets under the stone as well, which allows the decreased thermal mass of this small stone to recover very quickly.  Your bigger Fibrament stone may in fact be better and not require such tinkering.

Forza, another thing you want to do is pay attention to your broiler cycles and time to reach peak flame:

1. Turn on your broiler. Watch it. How long does it take from the time you hit the broil button to when the actual flame starts coming out? It takes a full 35-45 seconds for this to happen for me. Try this multiple times over a couple of days to get a good idea of the average time.

2. Once the flame is on, how long does it take for the flames to reach maximum heat? Without a thermometer, watch the flames. The dominant colors in the flames may change as the heat reaches maximum output. Pay attention to how long this takes to occur...use a stopwatch or kitchen timer. I've done this multiple times in my oven....on average, it takes my broiler 4-6 minutes to reach its maximum flame temperature once the flame comes on, which means that once I hit the broiler button, it takes 5-7 minutes before my flame is even at max temp. This is important to know. On an oven like mine, if someone just turned on the broiler for 10 minutes and put a pie in it, because of the delay time, the broiler would have only been at max heat for 3 to 5 minutes...not nearly enough time to get the stone hot enough for pizza making!

3. Does your broiler cycle...meaning, does it shut off if the oven gets too hot? If it does, how long does it shut off for? How long does it take to come back on? Use a watch or stopwatch function on your iPhone to time this.

These are examples of some things to think about, as "getting to know" your particular oven will be very helpful to help think about how to approach the oven set-up/workflow needed to heighten your chances of success.
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline forzaroma

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2011, 09:32:02 AM »
Awsome stuff I will check all this out and take pics for you and post back thanks.

Offline forzaroma

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2011, 09:32:34 AM »
I also just ordered an infared thermometer to see whaere im at.

Online scott123

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2011, 11:24:12 AM »
Now Scott123 may likely laugh at this because I am wrong, but for the all broiling technique I personally have had success with the thin stone you see pictured.

I'm not laughing at all, Kelly :) While I am a big fan of thick stones, I've also been a pretty vocal Nearlypolitan cheerleader. I don't think I've seen photos of Toby's stone, but from what I recall, it's most likely the same material and a similar thickness to yours. All broil techniques can be a bit mercurial, and require a skilled hand to master, but, for that matter, so does a WFO. If it works, I'm all for it  ;D

I was looking at your photos and can't seem to locate the thermostat probe?  When you jam the foil in the sides, are you covering the probe?  What kind of stone surface stone temps are you seeing with this?


Offline pizzablogger

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2011, 12:17:02 PM »
Quote
I was looking at your photos and can't seem to locate the thermostat probe?  When you jam the foil in the sides, are you covering the probe?  What kind of stone surface stone temps are you seeing with this?

I'm not sure there is a probe....my broiler stays on continuously until I turn it off (with or without foil). This creates an issue with the stone becoming too hot after a time. At times I need to place a sheet pan over my stone to keep some of the heat off of it. I've had the broiler on for as long as an hour straight at a pizza party.

The flame at directly coming out of the center of the broiler column gets to 950F to 1000F. That tapers off into the mid 800ish range towards the edge of the reflector plate.

With enough time, the top of my stone gets as hot as 900F directly under the broiler....but less towards the left edge of the stone farthest from the center of the broiler....I also put foil, shiny side out on the left wall in an attempt to deflect more heat to that side of the pie.

My results have been poor when the top stone surface climbs above 825F or so. I generally load and cook pizzas when the stone is at 725F to 775F. My cooking times are closer to 2:15ish at the lower end and 1:50ish on the higher end of that range. --K
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 12:20:45 PM by pizzablogger »
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Offline PapaJon

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2011, 01:40:12 PM »
My results have been poor when the top stone surface climbs above 825F or so. I generally load and cook pizzas when the stone is at 725F to 775F. My cooking times are closer to 2:15ish at the lower end and 1:50ish on the higher end of that range. --K
Hey PB, are you timing from experience or do you have an oven window you can view the progress from?  I'm guessing the former since even if you had a window I'm betting you are protecting it with foil from potential rogue splashes of molten sauce or cheese.
Jon

Online scott123

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2011, 01:59:11 PM »
My results have been poor when the top stone surface climbs above 825F or so. I generally load and cook pizzas when the stone is at 725F to 775F. My cooking times are closer to 2:15ish at the lower end and 1:50ish on the higher end of that range. --K

Yes, the increased conductivity of cordierite is going to necessitate lower than traditional Neapolitan temps.

As far as not being able to find your thermostat and having your broiler never turn off, I think you hit the oven jackpot.  An oven with a broiler that stays on indefinitely is not a common occurrence, and, tbh, thank goodness it isn't, as a lot people probably would have burned their houses down.

Offline BobBill

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2011, 04:53:41 PM »
I am making my pizza using my home oven that gets up to 550, and I know using straight Caputo 00 will not do well in this type of oven and I have been using bread flour. What are the thoughts of maybe mixing in bread flour with the 00? If yes what percentage should be the 00 and what % should the bread flour be. I am thinking 75-25 bread to 00.

I just read the entire thread, again. Wanted to help. Pies should be fun...

I initially began using OO about a year ago but will cease when used up.

The recipe is simple

5C      Flour
1.75t      Salt   
1t      Quick (instant) rise yeast
1.75C + 2T    Cool water 65 degrees or (near) room temp

Using hook, work dough 2 min, rest 5 or so; work dough until pulls from sides, about 3 minutes. If stiff add a bit of water, if does not hold shape, a bit of flour.

Half hour room temp rise, 8 hours or more in fridge even 48, then 2 hours room...separate make pies...

Going back to bread dough, as the difference to me was not all that great...

Now I occasionally added .25 C corn meal, whole wheat, semolina, as the mood goes.

Never a problem, save the obvious differences between say whole wheat and nothing, the doughs were all fine.

I tend to use middle rack and bake at 500 maybe 400, letting stone heat for half-hour. Those pies take about 15.

If I go high in oven, about half that. Deep dish, thin crust, Nea...all seem fine to me.

All OO or mixed with sem etc, the pies are fine.

I cannot seem to figure out what one could do to mess it up and therefore cannot help.

I thought I could but no suggestions, save maybe it is how dough is mixed.

BTW. I keep flour in garage in large bev cooler for months at a time sometimes.

 
« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 09:12:14 AM by BobBill »
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Offline pizzablogger

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2011, 05:33:37 PM »

Going back to bread dough, as the difference to me was not all that great...

I tend to use middle rack and bake at 500 maybe 400, letting stone heat for half-hour. Those pies take about 15.
 

BobBill, speaking only about Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour as I have not tried other 00 flours, that type of flour is only going to fully reveal its potential if it is cooked in a very short period of time.  My personal trials show that Caputo 00 starts losing character the longer one goes out beyond 2 minutes cooking time, with around 90 seconds ideal.

I know other pizzamaking.com members agree with this and pizza operators I have spoken too all cite the need to be able to cook a pizza quickly for the flour to achieve its maximum expression.

Now, that being said, if someone created a dough with Caputo 00 flour, properly mixed the ingredients, monitored a good fermentation and was able to properly cook such a pizza in under two minutes and still didn't see a meaningful difference, then that is a completely subjective argument with no right answer.

But a 00 pie cooked over a 15 minute time period is very likely going to lead to disappointing results.

For longer cook times, I would agree with you and not choose a 00 flour as the way to go. --K
"It's Baltimore, gentlemen, the gods will not save you." --Burrell

Offline BobBill

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Re: 00 Flour and bread Flour
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2011, 08:52:22 PM »
I must disagree, save the subjective notion, unless same batch at different temps.

I bake with Caputo flour at long (say 10 to 15) and short times (say 3-5), and the pies, dough-wyze, were supurb. Time-to-temp considered.

In all candor, OO, be it Caputo or whatever from experience, thus far not worth the time and expense-to me either short or long times. But, that is me. Willing to give most things a go, they make sense. The OO thingy just not worth the extra cost and effort to me. The differences exist but slight.

Maybe I am not picky enough. Always baked pie for fun. We older dodgers tend not to worry about some things, except tacking before a header hits the boat.

Tell you what, I have two bags Caputo left, will give it another go at max temps, then lower temps - same batch, and see how it comes out.

Good enough.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 09:15:45 AM by BobBill »
Welcome to our round playground called Earth
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