My new LBE and pies

[Jackie Tran]

Made a couple of good pies in the LBE tonight.  These are 100% HG bleached and bromated flour from Sam's club.   Made pies with Starter and CY, the CY pies were better.  Better puff = better texture.  These were slowly fermented for about 42 hours at 65F.  

Pie 1 baked at a hearth temp of 630F for 3m30s.

Pie 2 baked at a hearth of 580F for 5m30s.  Pie 2 was better of the 2 tonight.  

Enjoy,
Chau

[chickenparm]

Damn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Fantastic pies as always!

Pie 2 looked like the cheese melted more and a little crispier.Is that what made it better for you?How as the chewiness of the crust between the two?

I know pics can be deceiving but it looks that way somewhat.
 

[norma427]

Chau,

Great job!  Do you like your pies made with HG Sam's club's flour about the same as you like your pies made with Caputo flour made in your WFO?  You do a great job with your pies baked in your LBE or your WFO!

Norma

[Jackie Tran]

Damn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Fantastic pies as always!

Pie 2 looked like the cheese melted more and a little crispier.Is that what made it better for you?How as the chewiness of the crust between the two?

I know pics can be deceiving but it looks that way somewhat.

Thanks Bill,  these 2 pies were made from the same dough batch.  I showed their crumb shots to correlate with the different bake times.  The 2nd crust and crumb does looked drier and more baked out.   I did like the 2nd one better b/c the cornice and the bottom were both crispier.  I thought I was about to take a stand on the ideal bake time being closer to 5 minutes than 3 or 4, but then I saw my previous pies before this (which I momentarily had forgotten) where I preferred the quicker baked pie.     I look back into my book of notes and see that those pies were also made with HG flour (from Sunflower Market), same 70% hydration, and IDY. 

The difference was likely in that specific batch of dough.  The mixing method likely varied a bit from this batch as well.  I'll have to do more experiments comparing bake times to see what I ultimately prefer. 

chau

[Jackie Tran]

Chau,

Great job!  Do you like your pies made with HG Sam's club's flour about the same as you like your pies made with Caputo flour made in your WFO?  You do a great job with your pies baked in your LBE or your WFO!

Norma

Thanks Norma!  When you refer to my Caputo flour pies in the wfo, are you referring to the 100% caputo NP pies I bake or the 75/25 (00/HG) Hybrid pies? 

Also would you like me to compare these LBE HG pies to my WFO HG pies and 00 pies or did you want me to compare my HG WFO pies to my 00 WFO pies or all the above?     Sorry to make things complicated, but I wanted to try an answer your question accurately.

chau

[norma427]

Thanks Norma!  When you refer to my Caputo flour pies in the wfo, are you referring to the 100% caputo NP pies I bake or the 75/25 (00/HG) Hybrid pies? 

Also would you like me to compare these LBE HG pies to my WFO HG pies and 00 pies or did you want me to compare my HG WFO pies to my 00 WFO pies or all the above?     Sorry to make things complicated, but I wanted to try an answer your question accurately.

chau

Chau,

I am always interested in the experiments you try and also how you use different flours, whether the pies are bake in your home oven, LBE, or your WFO.

I would be interested in knowing how you rate all your experiments so far, with using different flours in your LBE and your WFO.  I would like to know about your 100% Caputo NP pies and the Caputo and high-gluten mixes. 

You have experimented with so many kinds of pies with different flours in your WFO and LBE, but I would be interested in knowing what flour or flour blend you prefer in your LBE or WFO.

Sorry to make you explain all of this, but I would be interested in knowing which pies were your best pies in your opinion, and why you thought they were your best pies. I know you are very curious and like to experiment in different ways.  I congratulate you for your persistence and sharing your knowledge. 

Norma

[TXCraig1]

That first pie is outrageously good looking - nothing at all wrong with the second for sure - but WOW on the first!

CL

[Pete-zza]

Chau,

Those pizzas do look good.

Out of curiosity, since you have both an LBE and WFO, what kinds of considerations dictate whether you use one or the other, and also how your home oven plays into things? I also wonder whether others who have both an LBE (or it equivalent) and a WFO still use the LBE.

Peter

[TXCraig1]

I also wonder whether others who have both an LBE (or it equivalent) and a WFO still use the LBE.

I have not used my gas grill for pizza (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9614.0.html) or anything else since getting the WFO. All my outdoor cooking is now wood-fueled.

CL

[Jackie Tran]

Chau,

I am always interested in the experiments you try and also how you use different flours, whether the pies are bake in your home oven, LBE, or your WFO.

I would be interested in knowing how you rate all your experiments so far, with using different flours in your LBE and your WFO.  I would like to know about your 100% Caputo NP pies and the Caputo and high-gluten mixes. 

You have experimented with so many kinds of pies with different flours in your WFO and LBE, but I would be interested in knowing what flour or flour blend you prefer in your LBE or WFO.

Sorry to make you explain all of this, but I would be interested in knowing which pies were your best pies in your opinion, and why you thought they were your best pies. I know you are very curious and like to experiment in different ways.  I congratulate you for your persistence and sharing your knowledge. 

Norma

Norma, you would think that with all the different experiments I do, I would have less trouble nailing down what style is best for me.  It's really tough to compare different doughs and different ovens fairly as there are so many variables.  So I keep it simple, by just noting which pies really stand out to me and try and study the variables that may be responsible for reproduction.   I've only spent very little time practicing NP in the WFO, but so far I have tried 57% -72% hydration ratios, high temp bakes, ultra high temp bakes, different mixing and dough fermentation routines.   I have made some mediocre pies and some good ones, but without a really good standard to compare to, I'm not sure how off the mark I am.  Not that it's really that important, but at the end of the day I still want to know the differences between what I am making and what the professionals are serving.   I have noticed that I enjoy a little crisp to the NP pie, so that means lower hydration and leaning a little towards a lengthier bake (1.5-2m)?

My hybrid pies are my bread and butter and I have been doing a more NY in the WFO.  I think the 3 styles have their merits and their weaknesses as well.  I'm not to the point yet of declaring which style is my favorite but I'm leaning towards the hybrids and NY styles, particularly 4-5 minute bakes.   At this point in time, I think that the 5 minute bakes maybe my favorite using either a BF or a HG flour with a moderate hydration level.  I just really enjoy that crispy crust with a soft center, but I don't like the cheese to be overbaked. 

I'll continue playing around with the NP style some more just for the sake of learning and being versatile, but at the end of the day, I may be a NY kinda guy.  And not the 8-10m NY pie, but more like the original style 4-5m pie. 

Chau

[Jackie Tran]

That first pie is outrageously good looking - nothing at all wrong with the second for sure - but WOW on the first!

CL

Thank you Craig.  That first one was more hybrid and the 2nd one more NY.  Always interesting to see how the same dough bakes up at different temps and times. 

Chau

[Jackie Tran]

Chau,

Those pizzas do look good.

Out of curiosity, since you have both an LBE and WFO, what kinds of considerations dictate whether you use one or the other, and also how your home oven plays into things? I also wonder whether others who have both an LBE (or it equivalent) and a WFO still use the LBE.

Peter

Thanks Peter.  Since the WFO takes me about 1.5 h to fire up to temps, I typically prefer to fire it up when we have guests over.  The more the merrier and it makes the effort worthwhile.  Since I am still actively experimenting all the time, it is not cost or time effective to fire the wfo up 2-3 times a week.  Once a week is more than enough, and sometimes it's every other week.   

The LBE on the other had takes 15-20m to come to temps and I can bake 2-3 tester pies and then shut it down.  The cost to run the LBE is significantly less than the wfo. 

B/c my wfo is outside and not enclose, that means I am also exposed to the elements when I'm using it.   I will likely not be firing it up that often when winter comes as I suspect it will take twice as long to come up to temps.  I'll likely be using the LBE and home oven when it's really cold out, since I have the LBE in my garage and am protected from the elements.   We don't get a lot of snow here but it can get pretty cold in Albuquerque. 

As far as the home oven goes, I still like to make pies occassional to compare it to the LBE.  With Omid posting his home oven mod for NP pies, I will likely follow suit and do something very similar.  I also like to make bread, both in the home oven and in the wfo when there is residual heat. 

Chau

[pizzablogger]

 
The LBE on the other had takes 15-20m to come to temps and I can bake 2-3 tester pies and then shut it down.  The cost to run the LBE is significantly less than the wfo. 

Chau

Chau, I believe you also have the Bayou Classic SB-10 Burner, is that correct? When you say 15-20 minutes to come up to temp, about how many turns of the burner regulator knob (the in-line regulator knob on the cooker line itself, NOT the big valve knob on top of the propane canister) do you open up while pre-heating?

I turn the propane valve all the way open and have been turning the burner regulator knob a full half turn. It takes a full 30-35 minutes for my stone to get to 630F. It takes just about 2.5 turns of the regulator knob to be fully open, so my pre-heat is at about 20% of power, more or less.

I've experimented with setting the burner regulator knob between 3/4 and a full turn and the heat up times increase to 25 minutes or so, but I'm not sold the stone is heated all the way through at that point...there is way too much heat loss after cooking a pie in this case.

Last step is to cut my side vent, which is not too much smaller than others, larger. I've resisted this until now because that is a "non-fixable" modification and I have to borrow a Dremel to do it from someone not home often. My most recent modification was to purchase a 14" wide by 4.5" deep carbon steel wok and invert that in the dome like the ash catcher. I cut off 45 seconds off the cook time, but still bone white tops when the bottoms are done at around 3:45 at a launch temp of 640F. Gotta be a bottleneck of hot air not getting out of the side vent fast enough because it is too small....and therefore not allowing the full volume of moving, radiant heat to flow over the pizza to get it cooked in time. Grrrr..... 

[Jackie Tran]

Kelly, the burner I'm using is the 180k btu burner that came packaged with the Brinkman barrel smoker.  It's the same one I was using in my MBE.  You can see a picture of it in that thread.

I can double check on the specs later but I believe it is a full half turn on the inline regulator knob to full open and I believe I open it up 3/4 of the way to full open when heating up.  Hearth temps taken right in the middle of the stone is about 650f within an average of 18m or so of heating up.  If I don't open up the inline regulator as much, it takes longer to reach 650f.  I'm also using the 18" weber, so your 22" kettle may take a bit longer to heat up, I'm not sure.  

After I bake the first pie, I typically turn the burner regulator knob down a bit, while I take the pie in for pictures and a taste test.  By the time I open up the 2nd skin and ready to bake, the temps are where I need it.  I typically bake about 30f lower on the 2nd and successive pies.  I can dial the temp of the hearth in by setting the regulator knob accordingly.  

The propane valve on the bottle is open all the way during the entire cook session.

To cure the white rim, you'll likely need to open up the lid vent a bit more.  What size is your lid vent? I can measure mine later today.  When is the opening sufficient?  Your LBE should sound kind of like a jet engine.  When you open up the lid vent a bit more, it should sound a bit louder, like the LBE can breathe better.  I can make a video showing the setup and how it sounds or even me baking a pie if you want.  After that, if you are still having trouble with the rim, I would recommend installing a lid air deflector as seen in my pics.

Chau

UPDATE - I just check my inline regulator knob, and you are correct PB.  It turns a complete 2.5 times before stopping.  I open it about 1/4 of a turn or a bit more, but quite a half turn when heating up the LBE.

[pizzablogger]

Thanks Jackie.

Yes, the 22" oven would likely take longer to heat up, but not sure nearly double the time...who knows?

I've tinkered with air-flow directors and multiple height flat ceilings as well. My best results are with something curved in the ceiling (having used both the ash catcher and wok).....somehow the more disturbed air this creates is more to my personal liking.

I have yet to install an air-flow director along with my carbon-steel wok. That is next.

My LBE does indeed sound like a jet engine...quite loud. But the side vent is a little smaller than Mmmph's side vent (he has a 22" weber as well). So I'm gonna have to cut it up a little more. --K

[parallei]

Chau,

Your last couple LBE pies look just great.  In the 2Stone I'm liking about a 3 min bake myself, but I may try longer based on your work.  I've been doing the OO/HG blend thing lately. Where your latest pies mixed by hand?  I'm looking for further evidence to justify my decision to banish my stand mixer to the garage!

Best,

Paul

[Jackie Tran]

PB, just as a point of reference, my 14" MBE took about 10m to hit 650f on the hearth.  But there is definitely less dead space and lid is also lower overall.

Chau,

Your last couple LBE pies look just great.  In the 2Stone I'm liking about a 3 min bake myself, but I may try longer based on your work.  I've been doing the OO/HG blend thing lately. Where your latest pies mixed by hand?  I'm looking for further evidence to justify my decision to banish my stand mixer to the garage!

Best,

Paul

Thanks Paul.  I think you will like it if your 3 min rims soften up after sitting a bit and you like a crunchier or crispier crust.   I would lower your hearth by 50f though, otherwise you'll burn the bottom.  You may keep the hydration the same and bake one 3m and one 5m to compare.

Can you tell me what %'s of each flour you are using for your blend?  The above pies are made with 100% HG flour and hand kneaded.  Because HG flours develop gluten so easily, I find that it takes very little hand kneading to develop the gluten.  I also like to hand knead when I make small experimental 2 ball batches (~500gm).

If I make bigger batches or use a weaker flour like 00, I like to use the Bosch because it's just easier.  Of course, stretch and folds work well too, even with high hydrated weak flours.  Especially if you have the time and enjoy watching the dough develop.  I like to use one method for a while, then switch it up every now and then so I can visually see the difference.

Paul, wish we lived closer so we can test the 2stone agaisnt the LBE.  I'd loved to see the difference.

Chau

[chickenparm]

Hi Chau,

Have you ever made a pie like these that had any sugar or oil in the dough? If not,can you try that sometime?

I would very curious to see how it bakes and turns out.If you done so already,then I either forgot or did not see it posted before.

Thanks.


-Bill

[Jackie Tran]

Hi Chau,

Have you ever made a pie like these that had any sugar or oil in the dough? If not,can you try that sometime?

I would very curious to see how it bakes and turns out.If you done so already,then I either forgot or did not see it posted before.

Thanks.

-Bill

Hey Bill, I typically don't use sugar in my dough because as I understand it, sugar will aid in browning of the rim.  As you can see, I bake my rims out pretty dark to enhance the crunch while using a moderately high hydration to keep the crumb open and soft.  If I use sugar, I think my rims will get prematurely dark, and I will lose some of the crunch.

As far as oil, I have experimented fairly extensively with it.  In the small amounts that I use to use, it served to softened the crumb which I do enjoy.  As I'm getting better about not mixing or kneading too much and balancing my hydration levels with the bake times, I have been able to get fairly soft crumbs without the oil.  It's a bit of a challenge for me so I enjoy that.   I personally don't buy into the idea that pizza should only be flour, water, salt, and yeast.  I think oil, in small amounts and sugar (when it's appropriate) for a NY style pie, can make a really great crust.  Of course if we talk about deep dish or pan pizza, then oil in large amounts, can be a phenomenal pie.

Here is a pie I baked in the MBE with oil in the formulation that was really good.
Reply 365.  If you read a few post down, you will see that bake was to compare a dough with and without oil.  I also show how the oil affected the crumb.  You can see how it softens the crumb compared to the crust without oil.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11126.360

Reply 23.  This one was 75/25 HG/00 with 2% oil.  Made in 4 hours.  One of my best.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12538.20.html

Here's one made in the home oven.  Reply 48, also with 2% oil.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10826.40.html

These are just a few examples.  I have lots more of you want to see.  

Chau

[chickenparm]

Chau,

Many Thanks for posting the links to your pies.I have seen them some time back, but it has been a while and I could not recall what your recipes listed and what you had used.

I do not have a LBE or WFO oven so I cannot try the experiments I want to do at home yet,but those links provided,sure did help to see what can be accomplished in doing so.
 

-Bill