Author Topic: Peter Reinhart’s Country Pizza Dough & Classic Pizza Dough, Neo-Neapolitan Style (Read 20301 times)

norma427 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 19, 2011, 10:10:07 AM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on February 19, 2011, 09:36:11 AM

Norma,

In addition to favoring high hydration values, for some reason Peter Reinhart is also fond of using a lot of sugar/honey in his doughs, along with fair amounts of oil as you noted. However, the oil usage in the Country and Classic dough recipes is not much above the upper limit for oil (about 3%) that I am used to seeing in NY style dough formulations. Also, as Peter Reinhart notes, the oil and sugar/honey in his Classic recipe are optional. That would be more typical of what the old NYC pizza masters, with their very high temperature ovens, would have done (that is, not use sugar/honey or oil).

I de-confused myself on the Country dough recipe. I found it by doing a Google search. The recipe is at http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/71-country-pizza-dough.html. As can be seen there, the Country recipe is similar to the Classic recipe except that it also includes whole wheat flour and some of the ingredient quantities are adjusted to reflect the use of the whole wheat flour. It occurs to me that some members might like to see the specific Country dough formulation you used if you don't mind posting it.

You will also note that I went back and modified my post at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12866.msg124788.html#msg124788 to more accurately reflect the instructions given by Peter Reinhart for the Classic recipe and to note that the oil and honey are optional (as is the sugar) and that the amount of water should be reduced if oil and/or honey are used. Peter does not say how to do this so I gave my suggested hydration values when oil and/or honey are used.

Peter

Peter,

I also noted that for some reason Peter Reinhart is fond of using a lot of sugar/honey in his doughs, with a fair amount of oil. I decreased the honey some in the formula I used, because I sure didn’t want a sweet dough in either pies. I saw the oil and sugar/honey were optional, but decided to give them a try. That is interesting to know that the dough would basically be like what the old NYC pizza masters used in their high temperature ovens without the oil and sugar/honey.

After I read about Peter’s Country dough recipe at the link you posted above, I thought it basically sounded the same, so that is why I used the formula for both pizzas, but switched the flours and added 15 more grams of water after I saw the dough was drier using the KAWW in the blend. I didn’t adjust the water, for either dough, since I added oil and honey, but the dough came out good. Do you have any idea why the dough fermented more in the Country dough recipe? I am still trying to figure that out, when all I did was switch the flours.

This is the formula I used for both doughs is anyone is interested. After I mixed both doughs with the paddle attachment, I used the dough hook and when the dough was taken out of the mixer I gave it different stretch and folds over 1 ½ hrs, before I oiled the dough for the cold ferment. If I didn’t explain enough in details, I can explain more if anyone is interested.

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #21 on:** February 19, 2011, 11:02:21 AM »

Norma,

Thank you for posting the dough formulations you used for the Classic and Country pizzas. That should help those who may decide to replicate what you did.

Based on the basic IDY + Honey dough formulation that I posted at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12866.msg124788.html#msg124788, and also the dough weights specified by Peter Reinhart for that dough formulation, technically you should have used a thickness factor for your 14" pizzas of between 0.06654 and 0.078092 (which I derived for the 12"-13" pizza sizes mentioned by Peter Reinhart in his instructions for the Classic pizza). That means that a single dough ball for a 14" pizza should have weighed between 10.24 ounces and 12.02 ounces to be true to the Reinhart recipes.

The above aside, it is possible that your version of the Reinhart Country dough fermented faster than your version of the Reinhart Classic dough because it included more yeast (IDY) from a baker's percent standpoint. From the Reinhart Country dough formulation given at http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/71-country-pizza-dough.html, I calculated a baker's percent for the IDY of 0.664%. That compares with the 0.55339% you used. Offhand, I don't see anything else in the formulations you used to explain the differences in the fermentation rates. Of course, if the two dough balls had different finished dough temperatures or were treated differently in their management (such as resting one dough before going into the refrigerator/cooler or storing one of the dough balls in a warmer part of the cooler/refrigerator than the other), then that could also help explain the different fermentation rates.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 19, 2011, 03:15:49 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on February 19, 2011, 11:02:21 AM

Norma,

Thank you for posting the dough formulations you used for the Classic and Country pizzas. That should help those who may decide to replicate what you did.

Based on the basic IDY + Honey dough formulation that I posted at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12866.msg124788.html#msg124788, and also the dough weights specified by Peter Reinhart for that dough formulation, technically you should have used a thickness factor for your 14" pizzas of between 0.06654 and 0.078092 (which I derived for the 12"-13" pizza sizes mentioned by Peter Reinhart in his instructions for the Classic pizza). That means that a single dough ball for a 14" pizza should have weighed between 10.24 ounces and 12.02 ounces to be true to the Reinhart recipes.

The above aside, it is possible that your version of the Reinhart Country dough fermented faster than your version of the Reinhart Classic dough because it included more yeast (IDY) from a baker's percent standpoint. From the Reinhart Country dough formulation given at http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/71-country-pizza-dough.html, I calculated a baker's percent for the IDY of 0.664%. That compares with the 0.55339% you used. Offhand, I don't see anything else in the formulations you used to explain the differences in the fermentation rates. Of course, if the two dough balls had different finished dough temperatures or were treated differently in their management (such as resting one dough before going into the refrigerator/cooler or storing one of the dough balls in a warmer part of the cooler/refrigerator than the other), then that could also help explain the different fermentation rates.

Peter

Peter,

I might try one or both of Peter Reinhart’s recipes for market on Tuesday. If I do I will follow the formula you set-forth to see what happens. It would be interesting to see how Peter Reinhart’s recipes would bake in the deck oven. I can understand the pizzas wouldn’t get as good as baking at a high temperatures. These were easy doughs to make and the end pizzas tasted good.

If Steve invites me to his home for more bakes when the weather is better I might also try Peter Reinhart’s recipes out without sugar/honey or oil. Would I just keep all the percentages the same if I try that out or would the water percent change?

It was interesting to hear technically how the thickness factor changed by what I did.

Thanks for going over the numbers.

Norma

Pete-zza · « **Reply #23 on:** February 19, 2011, 03:55:18 PM »

Norma,

I did not convert the Reinhart Country Pizza dough recipe to baker's percent format but for the IDY + Honey version, it would look like this:

Reinhart Country Dough Formulation with IDY and Honey

Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (70.8333%):
IDY (0.66406%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.41094%):
Olive Oil (3.96825%):
Honey (4.625%):
Total (181.50155%):

680.4 g | 24 oz | 1.5 lbs
481.95 g | 17 oz | 1.06 lbs
4.52 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
9.6 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
27 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp
31.47 g | 1.11 oz | 0.07 lbs | 4.5 tsp | 1.5 tbsp
1234.94 g | 43.56 oz | 2.72 lbs | TF = N/A

*The Flour Blend comprises 18oz/510.3g of unbleached bread flour and 6oz/170.1g whole wheat flour
Note: Dough is for five dough balls; no bowl residue compensation

I could not calculate a thickness factor for the Country Pizza dough because no pizza size was indicated at http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/71-country-pizza-dough.html. However, because of the similarity of the ingredients, quantities and total dough weight to the Classic Pizza dough, I believe it is safe to say that the intended pizza size is 12"-13". If so, the thickness factor would be 0.06564-0.07703. The dough weight for a 14" pizza would be 10.10-11.85 ounces. Of course, if you want a thicker pizza, you can use a larger thickness factor, just as you did with your recent experiments.

I think the Reinhart Classic and Country Pizza doughs should work in your oven at market but you will want to watch the bottom crust browning and be prepared to slip pizza screens under the pizzas should the bottoms darken too quickly or too much.

Nothing should change for the remaining numbers in the dough formulations should you decide to omit the sugar/honey and oil. The overall dough weight will change, however, due to the omission of those ingredients. That will change the thickness factors also, but not in a material way.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 19, 2011, 04:35:09 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on February 19, 2011, 03:55:18 PM

Norma,

I did not convert the Reinhart County Pizza dough recipe to baker's percent format but for the IDY + Honey version, it would look like this:

Reinhart Country Dough Formulation with IDY and Honey
Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (70.8333%):
IDY (0.66406%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.41094%):
Olive Oil (3.96825%):
Honey (4.625%):
Total (181.50155%):
680.4 g | 24 oz | 1.5 lbs
481.95 g | 17 oz | 1.06 lbs
4.52 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
9.6 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
27 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp
31.47 g | 1.11 oz | 0.07 lbs | 4.5 tsp | 1.5 tbsp
1234.94 g | 43.56 oz | 2.72 lbs | TF = N/A
*The Flour Blend comprises 18oz/510.3g of unbleached bread flour and 6oz/170.1g whole wheat flour
Note: Dough is for five dough balls; no bowl residue compensation

I could not calculate a thickness factor for the Country Pizza dough because no pizza size was indicated at http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/71-country-pizza-dough.html. However, because of the similarity of the ingredients, quantities and total dough weight to the Classic Pizza dough, I believe it is safe to say that the intended pizza size is 12"-13". If so, the thickness factor would be 0.06564-0.07703. The dough weight for a 14" pizza would be 10.10-11.85 ounces. Of course, if you want a thicker pizza, you can use a larger thickness factor, just as you did with your recent experiments.

I think the Reinhart Classic and Country Pizza doughs should work in your oven at market but you will want to watch the bottom crust browning and be prepared to slip pizza screens under the pizzas should the bottoms darken too quickly or too much.

Nothing should change for the remaining numbers in the dough formulations should you decide to omit the sugar/honey and oil. The overall dough weight will change, however, due to the omission of those ingredients. That will change the thickness factors also, but not in a material way.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for converting Peter Reinhart’s Country dough to baker’s percent format with IDY plus honey. If I have time to try the formula you set-forth I might either add less honey or might add the whole amount to see what happens. I can understand with using that amount of honey in the deck oven I would need to watch my bottom crust and might need to use a screen at the end of the bake. I liked the higher thickness factor, so I would use .11 again.

Norma

dmaxdmax · « **Reply #25 on:** February 19, 2011, 07:15:21 PM »

PR's suggestion about more initial mixing was related to my lack of gluten. I'd had no such problem when using our KA but I'm obviously a by-hand weenie.

I can't wait to try it in the Bosch I'm talking myself into.

norma427 · « **Reply #26 on:** February 19, 2011, 07:47:34 PM »

Quote from: dmaxdmax on February 19, 2011, 07:15:21 PM

PR's suggestion about more initial mixing was related to my lack of gluten. I'd had no such problem when using our KA but I'm obviously a by-hand weenie.

I can't wait to try it in the Bosch I'm talking myself into.

dmaxdmax,

Best of luck if you try Peter Reinharts' dough again and great to hear you are talking yourself into getting a Bosch.

Norma

dmaxdmax · « **Reply #27 on:** February 19, 2011, 09:32:36 PM »

Thanks Norma. Did you have a favorite between the country dough and the Neo-Nea?

fazzari · « **Reply #28 on:** February 19, 2011, 10:09:06 PM »

Norma,
I had very good luck cooking the country pizza dough in my deck! The following was baked at 620 degrees. The bottom did get dark, but remained pretty tender. I still believe this type of crust is better after 3 or 4 days..the texture of the bottom gets better with age....I've halved the yeast on some batches and thoroughly enjoyed 10 days old dough.
John

Pete-zza · « **Reply #29 on:** February 19, 2011, 10:15:10 PM »

John,

That's a good looking pizza. Did you follow the Country dough recipe as given by Peter Reinhart except for reducing the amount of yeast? And did you do anything to the dough like stretch and folds?

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #30 on:** February 20, 2011, 01:11:59 AM »

Quote from: dmaxdmax on February 19, 2011, 09:32:36 PM

Thanks Norma. Did you have a favorite between the country dough and the Neo-Nea?

I have only tried these two doughs one time, so I really don’t have a favorite. The Neo-Neapolitan pizza was good and so was the Country dough pizza if you like a little whole wheat taste. I would have to make these two pizzas again, before I could decide if I would like one better than another.

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #31 on:** February 20, 2011, 01:18:50 AM »

Quote from: fazzari on February 19, 2011, 10:09:06 PM

Norma,
I had very good luck cooking the country pizza dough in my deck! The following was baked at 620 degrees. The bottom did get dark, but remained pretty tender. I still believe this type of crust is better after 3 or 4 days..the texture of the bottom gets better with age....I've halved the yeast on some batches and thoroughly enjoyed 10 days old dough.
John

John,

I agree with Peter that your pizza is very good looking.

My current deck oven temperature isn’t as high as your is. That interesting that although your bottom did get darker, it still remained tender. I haven’t tried to make this kind of pie other than the ones I made Friday. What kind of texture on the bottom gets better with age. Is it softer? From the pizzas I tried on Friday I thought the crust was almost soft like a Keste’s pie, but then they were baked fast in the WFO. I would also be interested in hearing more about your pie.

Great job!

Norma

fazzari · « **Reply #32 on:** February 20, 2011, 09:37:02 AM »

Peter
The pie above is Reinhart's recipe exactly...I always do this the first time and then make adjustments in following tries. I've only made the country dough once....as I enjoy the classic dough better.
John

norma427 · « **Reply #33 on:** February 21, 2011, 07:44:03 AM »

John,

Did you have to do any stretch and folds for you Country Dough?

Norma

norma427 · « **Reply #34 on:** February 21, 2011, 08:09:35 AM »

Peter,

I went to my one supermarket in my area yesterday, that usually carries Better for Bread flour and they were out of Better for Bread flour. I went to two more supermarkets and they also didn’t have any Better for Bread flour. I bought some Pillsbury Bread flour to try out in both Reinhart’s doughs for tomorrow. Do you have any idea what the difference is in Better for Bread flour compared to Pillsbury Bread flour? Do you think I will need to add anything to the two doughs?

Norma

forzaroma · « **Reply #35 on:** February 21, 2011, 08:55:53 AM »

I tried 2 dough methods this weekend the classic Reinhart neo neopolitan using a cup of 00 and the other recipe I used 100 percent 00 trying the broiler method. The neo came out great and 00 bad. I will not use 100 percent 00 at home again lol I have tried few times and just am not pleased. I am attaching some pics the dough tray one you will see left side first 3 balls are the 00 ones.

norma427 · « **Reply #36 on:** February 21, 2011, 09:44:06 AM »

Quote from: forzaroma on February 21, 2011, 08:55:53 AM

I tried 2 dough methods this weekend the classic Reinhart neo neopolitan using a cup of 00 and the other recipe I used 100 percent 00 trying the broiler method. The neo came out great and 00 bad. I will not use 100 percent 00 at home again lol I have tried few times and just am not pleased. I am attaching some pics the dough tray one you will see left side first 3 balls are the 00 ones.

forzaroma,

I see you are trying different flours also. I am not sure what flours will give the best results. Your Classic, Neo-Neapolitan Style looks very tasty.

Did you have to any stretch and folds with your dough? What methods to you use to mix the dough? How long were your doughs cold fermented? Sorry to be asking all these questions, but I am new at making this dough also.

You did a good job!

Norma

forzaroma · « **Reply #37 on:** February 21, 2011, 09:49:52 AM »

Hi Norma was so happy with my dough for the Reinhart ones and so mad about the 00. For reinhart one I made the dough in my mixer and then did exactly what he said on the pizza quest site stretched and let rest every 5 minutes for around 3-4 times, then bulk fermented for 24 hours taken out made ball 2 hours before being baked but i did use a cup of 00 in the mix. only regret is I used 8 ounce balls and didnt get the size pizza i wanted.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #38 on:** February 21, 2011, 09:54:50 AM »

Quote from: norma427 on February 21, 2011, 08:09:35 AM

I went to my one supermarket in my area yesterday, that usually carries Better for Bread flour and they were out of Better for Bread flour. I went to two more supermarkets and they also didn’t have any Better for Bread flour. I bought some Pillsbury Bread flour to try out in both Reinhart’s doughs for tomorrow. Do you have any idea what the difference is in Better for Bread flour compared to Pillsbury Bread flour? Do you think I will need to add anything to the two doughs?

Norma,

I tried this morning to find what is in the retail Better for Bread flour but I could not find anything on that flour. It is listed at the Betty Crocker website at http://www.bettycrocker.com/products/gold-medal-flour/products/better-for-bread-flour, but if you click on the Nutrition Information button, you will be taken to a general list of products but not flours. If you have an old Better for Bread empty flour bag, you might check to see what the ingredients are for that flour. I was able to find information on the ingredients for the retail Pillsbury flour at http://www.pillsburybaking.com/products/ProductDetail.aspx?catID=299&prodID=719. I have operated under the assumption that the retail Better for Bread flour is the same as the professional General Mills Harvest King flour with the specs given at http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/HarvestKingWest53722(West).doc. If I am correct, then the main difference from a spec standpoint seems to be that the Pillsbury bread flour contains some ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) as a dough conditioner. However, according to the GM website, the Harvest King flour is milled from winter wheat. By contrast, according to http://www.walmart.com/ip/Pillsbury-Best-Bread-Enriched-Flour-5-lb/10308169, the Pillsbury bread flour is milled from hard spring wheat.

Since the Reinhart dough recipes simply call for using unbleached bread flour as a generic product, and unless he said somewhere that one should use the Better for Bread flour, I don't think I would worry about using the Pillsbury bread flour in his recipes.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #39 on:** February 21, 2011, 09:55:16 AM »

Quote from: forzaroma on February 21, 2011, 09:49:52 AM

Hi Norma was so happy with my dough for the Reinhart ones and so mad about the 00. For reinhart one I made the dough in my mixer and then did exactly what he said on the pizza quest site stretched and let rest every 5 minutes for around 3-4 times, then bulk fermented for 24 hours taken out made ball 2 hours before being baked but i did use a cup of 00 in the mix. only regret is I used 8 ounce balls and didnt get the size pizza i wanted.

forzaroma,

Thanks for telling what you did when you made the dough. I really so far like this kind of pizza also, but think the flours used will matter, unless there is a WFO used to bake the doughs. I'll see how my doughs work out tomorrow.

Norma