Author Topic: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie  (Read 47500 times)

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Offline Chaze215

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #175 on: April 15, 2014, 08:31:07 PM »
My experience with L&B style squares.  They are not made with traditional pizza dough, so the whole hydration % doesn't apply here.  Also, L&B squares are different from other NY sicilian slices.  The pillowy dough is a result of not using traditional pizza style dough recipes, but using more of a white bread dough which consists of milk powder/milk, butter and more sugar than a traditional pizza dough.  If you try an L&B square slice, it's crumb is not elastic like an artisan bread, nor is it like neapolitan or NY thin crust.   It is like a compacted soft pillowy white bread which crisps at the bottom and sides due to high sugar/milk content.

I will look to emulate their recipe and will post pictures and recipe.
I hear what you're saying about the texture. But this is the first time in hearing about milk, milk powder, sugar and/or butter. What kind of flour do you plan on using? I'm looking forward to seeing your results and workflow.
Chaz


Offline Arctic Pizza

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #176 on: April 15, 2014, 08:44:28 PM »
I hear what you're saying about the texture. But this is the first time in hearing about milk, milk powder, sugar and/or butter. What kind of flour do you plan on using? I'm looking forward to seeing your results and workflow.

I plan on using AP King arthur, and another with bread flour.  Btw, i edited my post to further explain what I mean. 
Sauce, the tomato variety "San Marzano" doesn't mean much anymore as the variety has been so ruined lately and diluted by false product marketing and hybridization.   I found a source for organic San Marzano Redorta, which is a very large paste tomato, about 10-12 oz.  I prefer to use these as they are extremely sweet.  This is critical to the L&B square which has a very bright, fresh sweet taste.  Seeded, drained, cut and pureed with salt, pepper and oregano/basil.  I don't believe L&B cooks their tomatoes or if they do, maybe very quickly ie 10 minutes to retain the fresh tomato taste.



Offline Chaze215

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #177 on: April 15, 2014, 08:50:47 PM »
Cool, I'm looking forward to seeing the results. I'm not a San Marzano fan, so I used Sclafani crushed tomatoes which are very sweet as well.
Chaz

Offline Arctic Pizza

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #178 on: April 20, 2014, 10:14:18 PM »
Cool, I'm looking forward to seeing the results. I'm not a San Marzano fan, so I used Sclafani crushed tomatoes which are very sweet as well.

Went to L&B last night and took some notes this time.  I've eaten their squares for years, and never really contemplated over it.

We ordered a half which is 12 squares.  The dough on the L&B square is definitely not traditional NY pizza dough, thin or Neapolitan.   
What we decided to do was compare it to other types of bakery products, one person said it was like white bread, another said it was like a thick cake or donut. 

First observation is that this pizza is sweet.  At first I thought it was just the tomatoes, but I sampled the crust alone and it is definitely much sweeter than traditional pizza dough. 
It is saltier than traditional pizza dough which complements the sweetness and is probably cold fermented for 24 hours to 2days to produce a good yeasty white bread flavor. 
It is NOT cake.  It is cake-like in some ways,  it is almost like inside a thick but soft donut in texture with a crispy bottom layer.

I ate 4 squares.  I don't ever eat more than 2 normal sicilian squares at which I am doughed out.   L&B dough is light in the mouth.  I don't have to chew on it like pizza or sicilian.  It goes down fast and don't have the same doughy aftereffects.
I am convinced there is milk/dry milk powder in the product and some type of shortening/butter.

I decided to begin with the following:


1 cup water
2 tbsp dry milk powder
3 cups AP flour
1 tbsp shortening
1 tbsp salt
2 tbsp sugar
2 tsp active yeast
max temp on pizza stone 12 minutes.

Dough was cold fermented for 24 hours pressed down into greased pan.

The recipe I used is a good start and much better my past efforts when I've used traditional pizza dough recipe.  There is definitely milk/milk powder in their recipe imo.

Some problems:
One thing I noticed after I baked is it isn't sweet enough.  L&B is NOT sweet like a pastry, but is sweeter than typical pizza dough.   2tbsp I used seems alot, but this dough was nowhere as sweet as L&B. 
I will try 4tbsp (sounds like alot).  Also needs more salt so that goes up to 2tbsp.  It also needs more salt.

The texture is in the ballpark but it's not soft enough.  The outer crust should not come out as rigid as it did.   I will bump up the hydration and use milk as the base liquid.  1 cup milk and 1/4 cup water instead of water + milk powder I previously used. 

Sorry no pictures, I will post some in a final product I am happy with.  Work in progress.




« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 10:20:38 PM by Arctic Pizza »

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #179 on: April 20, 2014, 10:24:25 PM »
I agree with your observations, especially with the noted sweetness of the dough. Now that I think about it, I'm due for a trip to L & B! :-)
What size pan did you use and what was the temp & bake time? Did you roll out the dough to simulate the sheeter they use at L&B?
Chaz

Offline Arctic Pizza

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #180 on: April 20, 2014, 10:28:32 PM »
I agree with your observations, especially with the noted sweetness of the dough. Now that I think about it, I'm due for a trip to L & B! :-)
What size pan did you use and what was the temp & bake time? Did you roll out the dough to simulate the sheeter they use at L&B?

I used a regular 18" x 26" steel sheet pan which approximates half pan at l&b.  i set the temp at oven max on a pizza stone at bottom level of oven.  I will elaborate on this more later re: sauce and cheese, but the key is to not really overcook/burn the tomatoes and romano on top.   

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #181 on: April 20, 2014, 10:42:51 PM »
Got it. I'm looking forward to your workflow and details. Keep up the good work! BTW, are you in the NY/NJ area?
Chaz

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #182 on: April 20, 2014, 10:53:59 PM »
Arctic Pizza,

On the matter of the effects of salt and sugar on each other, you might find this post of interest:

Reply 777 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3940.msg161018#msg161018

Peter

Offline Arctic Pizza

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #183 on: April 20, 2014, 10:58:43 PM »
Got it. I'm looking forward to your workflow and details. Keep up the good work! BTW, are you in the NY/NJ area?

I'm in Manhattan.  This is my mission for the next few months! 


Offline Arctic Pizza

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #184 on: April 20, 2014, 11:06:07 PM »
Arctic Pizza,

On the matter of the effects of salt and sugar on each other, you might find this post of interest:

Reply 777 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3940.msg161018#msg161018

Peter

Thanks!  Interesting topic on the interaction of sugar/salt.  Combinations of flavors are important.   Also, there's another thing called umami, which is considered the "5th taste", like that sense of what you crave or think about independent of taste buds taken independently. 



Offline nickr

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #185 on: April 23, 2014, 11:01:26 AM »
I'm convinced that the dough has lard in it. As for milk, I'm not so sure. The crumb is very soft, and very tender. Is is possible that they use some potato flour?

Offline Arctic Pizza

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #186 on: April 29, 2014, 09:34:01 PM »
I'm convinced that the dough has lard in it. As for milk, I'm not so sure. The crumb is very soft, and very tender. Is is possible that they use some potato flour?

There's no way to get the crumb with any traditional flour/water/yeast/salt ratio.  It must contain dairy and other ingredients.  The pictures on this thread look nice, but L&B not a neapolitan style crumb.  It's like a crispy yet cakey/donut/white bread.

Last recipe i tried was getting there,  but experimented with few changes.


2 tsp active dry yeast


switched from dry milk to real milk
3/4 lukewarm
1/4 cup warm water

upped the sugar
1/4 cup white sugar

added an egg this time.
1 egg

1 tbsp salt

added 1/4 cup shortening

3 1/2 cups all-purpose flour

24 hour cold rise. 

This is real close.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 10:44:32 PM by Arctic Pizza »

Offline Arctic Pizza

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #187 on: April 29, 2014, 09:48:57 PM »
the addictiveness is from the relatively sweeter dough and very sweet tomatoes, and very sharp romano, a naturally high level of glutamate.

i've been using redorta and san marzano.  you don't want to cook down the tomatoes much, but need to puree them with a hand mill and add salt, pepper, oregano.  do NOT put in garlic or onions, it will ruin the sweet/salt profile.  I cook down the tomatoes for 30 minutes with a little olive oil, no tomato water.  must be drained.  The key is to not cook the tomatoes too long and let it's natural sweetness come through.  i taste the tomatoes, if it's sour, add some corn syrup.  tomatoes will be more acidic the less you drain them of it's tomato water.  try to remove as much as possible.

i am using deli sliced low moisture mozz cut 1/4".  you want alot of good fresh grated pecorino romano.  this is where the saltiness and glutamate (umami) really cuts through the sweetness.

I bake it on a stone.  Do not broil it ever.  the romano should never turn brown.  crust should crisp, and the top should be steaming hot but not burnt. 


« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 10:45:35 PM by Arctic Pizza »

Offline nickr

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #188 on: April 30, 2014, 01:16:25 PM »
What thickness factor are you using?

Offline 9slicePie

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #189 on: July 29, 2014, 10:28:33 AM »
I've seen youtube videos of L&B, and I'm also sooo curious how they maker their sauce.  I heard that there are 2 tomato products that go into it.

Offline ron.ck722

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #190 on: September 02, 2014, 02:29:01 AM »
A retired Electronics Engineer, raised on Niagara Falls' defunct Trusello's Pizza, I got a kick from the "Reverse Engineering Spumoni Gardens" thread. My wife heard about the Spumoni Garden on TV the day before I decided to investigate them on this forum.

Quite familiar with reverse engineering electronic and mechanical systems, I hadn't heard the term applied to pizza. If it's done with wine and perfume, why not pizza?

Pictures can't describe taste or texture, but the Garden's Sicilian pizza looked very similar to Trusello's. I tried duplicating Nate's April 3rd Reply 166 recipe and immediately ran into a roadblock. Having never baked anything other than pre-fabbed Pillsbury Doughboy sugar-topped cinammon rolls when the kids were young, I couldn't understand any of the baking terminology or whether the ingredients were by volume or weight (my wife, an excellent cook, bakes only occasionally. Her mother baked bread almost daily. We were 16 and I was too blinded by love to realize my mother-in-law hadn't passed along her baking expertise).

Back to pizza - when I used volume, I came up with ~ 2.6 cups of hydration added to 4 cups of flour. Didn't make sense, so I tried weight (or density), which gave me ~ 0.73 cups of hydration added to 4 cups of flour. Much more plausible.

Since my usual sauce must be seed-free and Albertsons had no San Marzano tomatos, I discovered, bought and tasted some strained Pomi uncooked, and it was fine to my second generation Italian-American taste buds. I understand the Pomi reviews are mixed. My wife insisted on a quick, 10 minute sauce sizzle in olive oil, the method used by our late dear friend from Naples. I'll try pomi uncooked the next time.

I also never realized until I'd watched the "Man versus Food" YouTube episode at the Spumoni Garden that there was an almost invisible layer of Mozzerelo cheese under the sauce to keep it from sogging up the bread.

The finished pizza was suprisingly good - a little thinner than desired, partially because I'd only allowed a 2 hour rise and partially because I hadn't made enough dough. But was good enough to quell any thoughts of buying frozen dough or finished pizzas for a while.

I'm hooked and can't wait to refine my technique. Later I'll add some Boar's Head or Grandpa's Cheese Barn Pepperoni. That's another 15 year search, recently culminated - a suitable replacement for the Patrick Cudahy Margherita pepperoni (sticks only - no slices, please) of my youth.

I've also never heard of Sicilian Eggplant Caponata on a pizza. I'll look for a thread.

Many thanks to Nate, Norma, Chaze215, Bobino414 and the other Spumoni Gardens thread contributors.

Regards,

Ron

Offline rfrf

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #191 on: February 12, 2015, 09:14:48 AM »
I have been trying to following the dough and pizza recipe from the first post a few times and i'm needing some tips on where i'm going wrong.. the few times I have tried this the bottom of the crust comes out almost like focaccia, and far too crusted. The crust in places actually has a hard time "staying" with the pizza when removing it from the pan. Looking at other pictures in this thread it's like the bottom is too thick compared to the rest of the pizza.
 
I'm thinking my pan is one of the reasons (using an aluminum sheet pan), but based on what I've described where else could I be going wrong?  Am i right in thinking the hydration of the mix could be a factor in what i've described? I've attached a picture below. The dough after cooling is very soggy..
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 09:41:12 AM by rfrf »


Offline jsaras

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #192 on: February 12, 2015, 10:34:48 AM »
Is the outer part of your pan shiny or seasoned?
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Offline rfrf

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #193 on: February 12, 2015, 10:37:33 AM »
Is the outer part of your pan shiny or seasoned?
It's shiny, I have not done anything to season it. It was all I could find when I looked briefly locally. Is there anything I can do with such a pan or should I invest in something else?

Offline jsaras

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #194 on: February 12, 2015, 11:01:13 AM »
Shiny pans reflect heat, dark/seasoned ones absorb heat.  This should get you going: http://ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com/2012/09/how-to-season-pizza-pan.html?m=1
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Offline rfrf

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #195 on: February 12, 2015, 11:19:10 AM »
Shiny pans reflect heat, dark/seasoned ones absorb heat.  This should get you going: http://ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com/2012/09/how-to-season-pizza-pan.html?m=1
Thanks.

Offline thezaman

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #196 on: March 09, 2015, 12:25:46 PM »
There's no way to get the crumb with any traditional flour/water/yeast/salt ratio.  It must contain dairy and other ingredients.  The pictures on this thread look nice, but L&B not a neapolitan style crumb.  It's like a crispy yet cakey/donut/white bread.

Last recipe i tried was getting there,  but experimented with few changes.


2 tsp active dry yeast


switched from dry milk to real milk
3/4 lukewarm
1/4 cup warm water

upped the sugar
1/4 cup white sugar

added an egg this time.
1 egg

1 tbsp salt

added 1/4 cup shortening

3 1/2 cups all-purpose flour

24 hour cold rise. 

This is real close.


  this is very close to my current recipe that i am using to duplicate L&B. i have never been there but it is on my next pizza crawl. the last attempt was definitely light and soft with a crisp bottom. i used a egg and olive oil for richness. the sauce was san marzanos with anchovies olive oil and oregano cooked down a little then buzzed with a stick blender. the sauce seemed too mild so after hitting it with grated cheese and evoo i added more oregano. i also fork docked the dough then pre baked with the cheese. that made it a little thicker than if i would of baked it raw to the finish. i wanted to try the anchovy addition as i have seen two current sicilian recipes that used them in their sauce.next time i will go with raw 7/11 finished with grated cheese evoo and oregano.   

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #197 on: March 09, 2015, 02:39:28 PM »
Larry,

When you visit L&B make sure you walk around back to the bathrooms. You get a good glance into the kitchen and can actually walk up and see the dough proofing in the trays on racks.

Offline thezaman

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #198 on: March 09, 2015, 04:02:36 PM »
Ali, wants me to invite you and derrick on our next pizza crawl. if we can work out everybody's work schedules, I would love for you to come along. Ali is coming home this week and said no plans other than pizza making will be acceptable. I want to go to L&B, totannos, franny's, and lucalli's, and any other recommended places. This would be over two days.

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Reverse Engineering L&B Spumoni Gardens' Square pie
« Reply #199 on: May 28, 2015, 01:31:19 PM »
Here's a video featuring L&B I haven't seen in this thread yet. Starts somewhere in the middle. Lou said 650 degrees for the oven....wouldn't have guessed that (if accurate.)

http://on.aol.com/video/how-to-make-classic-pizza-241278573