Author Topic: poolish for neapolitan...  (Read 8521 times)

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Online thezaman

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2011, 06:29:20 PM »
yes and yes.


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2011, 07:08:04 PM »
Larry - very nice looking pies and crumb shot.   What type of flour are you using and what is the bake time on those pies? 

Thx,
Chau

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2011, 08:17:58 PM »
yes and yes.


Larry,

Thank you. That is a fine looking pizza.

I took your data and converted it to the usual three-stage protocol that I am accustomed to using. I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html simply to produce a clean formatting of the data. That is why there are some oddball baker's percents. I also did some tweaking of some of the numbers to be sure that the totals are correct.

Total Formula
Flour (100%):
Water (64%):
IDY (0.02215%):
Salt (2.4706%):
Total (166.49275%):
1700 g  |  59.96 oz | 3.75 lbs
1088 g  |  38.38 oz | 2.4 lbs
0.38 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.13 tsp | 0.04 tbsp
42 g | 1.48 oz | 0.09 lbs | 7.53 tsp | 2.51 tbsp
2830.38 g | 99.84 oz | 6.24 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

Preferment (Poolish)
Flour (100%):
Water (100%):
IDY (0.12551%):
Total (200.12551%):
300 g  |  10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs
300 g  |  10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs
0.38 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.13 tsp | 0.04 tbsp
600.38 g | 21.18 oz | 1.32 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The poolish uses 27.574% of the Total Formula Water

Final Mix
Preferment (from above) 600.38 g | 21.18 oz | 1.32 lbs
Flour (100%):
Water (56.2857%):
Salt (3%):
Total (159.2857%):
1400 g  |  49.38 oz | 3.09 lbs
788 g  |  27.8 oz | 1.74 lbs
42 g | 1.48 oz | 0.09 lbs | 7.52 tsp | 2.51 tbsp
2830.38 g | 99.84 oz | 6.24 lbs | TF = N/A

I'm not sure what amount of IDY Andre would need for his particular timeframes. His dough will be spending around 4 hours at a room temperature of around 78.7-82.4 degrees F (26-28 degrees C). That may complicate things, especially if his timetable is not flexible. I think it may be possible to calculate an amount of yeast (IDY) to fit his timetable more closely, but it would take a lot of complicated math to come up with that value (I believe that there would be two amounts of IDY used, one for the poolish and a second for the Final Mix).

If Andre decides to try your recipe, it should be fairly easy to adapt it for his dough ball weights. He might not want to make 12 dough balls for the test. He may want to make only a few dough balls for experimental purposes. However, he will still have to do some experimenting on the amount(s) of IDY to fit his timetables.

Peter

« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 08:24:24 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline andreguidon

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2011, 08:26:06 PM »
thanks peter !! i will give this a try... maybe not using the WFO, ill just make the dough and make some pitabread or something.... next week starts carnaval here, some ill have 4 to 5 days to practice, and for sure will make pizza !!
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2011, 08:31:14 PM »
Andre,

As you are spending most of your time drinking and dancing and having a good time at the carnival, I will torture myself by trying to re-design your dough recipe to see if I can get it to fit your timetable, from beginning to end. I won't know if I can do it until I work the numbers. I will use two 360 gram dough balls for the math.

Peter

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2011, 10:08:47 PM »
i think that jeffery hamelman covers this subject in his book bread . looks like pizza blogger might have touched on it above.peter thanks for your formulation.

Offline andreguidon

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2011, 05:19:23 AM »
Carnaval is going to be TESTING time for this dough !!! hahahahaa !!!
im not a big fan of the event here, Sao Paulo is great during carnaval cause more than 50% leave Sao Paulo and head to the beach or country side, so the city is less crowded...
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Offline forzaroma

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2011, 08:14:08 AM »
Next morning add the remaining flour, water and salt. If the preferment is frothy just mix it up and go. I would give it a fold every half hour for about 1 1/2 hours. At two hours or so form the loaves (anything from baguettes to boules). Let them rise till about 75% expanded (probably about three hours and bake as normal.


Form the loaves? Im confused on this, are you saying form the dough balls? Another question when using a poolish how do you incorporate the poolish into final dough are you just adding to wet ingredients or breaking up and adding into dry? probably a stupid question but I have to ask.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2011, 10:53:25 AM »
Andre,

How do you plan to make your dough (for a two dough ball batch), by hand or by machine, and will you be using the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour and sea salt? This time of year, would you ordinarily use 2.8% salt?

Peter
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 11:04:54 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline andreguidon

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2011, 12:25:25 PM »
Peter,

2 dough balls seems about right for this test, i use sea salt and for the summer 2.8% even 3% for a very hot day also seems right...

do you think 20% of poolish (trying to figure out how much IDY) is the right amount for this dough ?? im trying to figure this out, but usually people that use poolish make bread in a short period of time.... and i want to use this dough in a longer period...
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2011, 12:31:38 PM »
Andre,

I am thinking more like using around 50% of the total formula water and elaborating that with an equal weight of flour to make the poolish. I have been working on a test dough formulation for you to experiment with. It should be ready in a day or so.

What kind of flour will you be using, and how would you prepare two dough balls--by hand or by your Bosch?

Peter

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2011, 01:59:57 PM »
ill use caputo, and for 2 dough balls ill use the cuisinart.... THANKs Allot Peter !!

50% of the Water is 30% of finished poolish compared to the FLOUR, right ?
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2011, 02:59:20 PM »
50% of the Water is 30% of finished poolish compared to the FLOUR, right ?

Andre,

Yes, that is correct (that is, the amount of poolish would be equal to 30% of the total flour weight). I try to use Didier Rosada's methodology on poolish.

Peter

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2011, 03:27:43 PM »
lets use 1Kg of flour as a round number... 60% water is 600g, 50% of that for the poolish is 300g o water, considering that the poolish is 100% hydration the poolish is going to be 600g right ? that is a 60% poolish.... is this right ?
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2011, 04:28:47 PM »
lets use 1Kg of flour as a round number... 60% water is 600g, 50% of that for the poolish is 300g o water, considering that the poolish is 100% hydration the poolish is going to be 600g right ? that is a 60% poolish.... is this right ?

Andre,

Yes, that is correct if measured with respect to the total formula flour.

Peter

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2011, 06:54:43 PM »
now im curious.... im going the opposite way with my calculations, im thinking a smaller poolish...
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2011, 07:06:08 PM »
Andre,

Based on the information you provided, including a desired timetable for the preparation and use of the poolish-based dough, I have set forth below an experimental dough formulation for your consideration. The dough formulation was designed completely on paper. So, I don’t know how it will perform in practice. However, since I went through a lot of mathematical calculations to come up with the dough formulation (I have three pages of notes and calculations), I will describe how I designed the dough formulation. That way, if the formulation is successful and you decide to make changes, you will know how they should be achieved.

First, I decided to use the method that member November described at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42572.html#msg42572 to calculate the amount of yeast to be used in the total dough formulation. It was necessary that I use that method twice, once for the poolish and a second time for the final mix. In the latter case, I had to account for the fact that the final dough would be held in your wine unit for a first period of time and then at a very warm room temperature for a second period of time. (I will set forth the protocol for you to use in greater detail below.)

Second, for the poolish itself, I used the formulation recommended by Didier Rosada for a 12-15 hour poolish preferment in Chart A of his article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm. However, since that recommendation presumes the use of cake yeast and a prefermentation temperature of 80-85 degrees F (26.7-29.4 degrees C), which is considerably higher than the temperature (18C/64.4F) of your wine unit, I had to convert the fresh yeast to IDY and to modify the poolish formulation to work at 18C/64.4F. Also, I decided to use a 14-hour prefermentation period. The calculations for the final dough were more involved because of the need to store the bulk dough in the wine unit at 18C/64.4F for several hours and, after division and scaling, to ferment the dough balls at an elevated room temperature of around 26.7C/80F for several more hours. The amount of yeast needed as part of the final mix had to take both periods and different temperatures into account. For this part of the exercise, I relied on what I learned about very low yeast long room temperature fermentation of dough in the opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.0.html, and also elsewhere in the same thread. What I was hoping to see with the final dough is a doubling at the time the dough balls would be used to make pizzas.

All of the calculations were performed on an online scientific calculator at http://www.mathsisfun.com/scientific-calculator.html.

Before coming up with the three parts of the dough formulation, I had to decide on how much poolish to use. Didier Rosada, in the article referenced above, says that the poolish can use from 20-80% of the total formula water and then be elaborated with an equal weight of flour. For your experiment, I decided to pick a poolish percent in the middle of that range, to ensure the production of adequate by-products of fermentation and to produce acids that would adequately strengthen the final dough. You may find, just as Norma discovered with her preferment Lehmann dough formulation, that adjustments to the amount of poolish may be needed to achieve the desired final results. Only time will tell whether that will also be the case with your dough.

After the dust settled, I ended up with the Total Dough Formula set forth below, basing it on the 1000 grams of flour that you asked be used. I then broke down the Total Dough Formula into the Poolish part and the Final Mix part, both of which are also shown below. I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html but solely to get a clean formatting of the output data and to make some minor changes to improve readability.

Here are the results:

Total Dough Formula
Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
IDY (0.0438%):
Sea Salt (2.8%):
Total (162.8438%):
1000 g  |  35.27 oz | 2.2 lbs
600 g  |  21.16 oz | 1.32 lbs
0.44 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.15 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
28 g | 0.99 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.02 tsp | 1.67 tbsp
1628.44 g | 57.44 oz | 3.59 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

Preferment (Poolish)
Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour (100%):
Water (100%):
IDY (0.07114%):
Total (200.07114%):
300 g  |  10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs
300 g  |  10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs
0.21 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.07 tsp* | 0.02 tbsp
600.21 g | 21.17 oz | 1.32 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The Poolish uses 50% of the Total Formula Water and is elaborated with an equal weight of the flour
*0.07 teaspoon of IDY for the Poolish is equal to a bit over a "pinch" mini measuring spoon

Final Mix
Poolish (from above): 600.21 g | 21.17 oz | 1.32 lbs
Remaining Total Formula Caputo 00 Pizzeria Flour (100%):
Remaining Total Formula Water (42.857%):
Remaining Total Formula IDY (0.03286%):
Total Formula Sea Salt (4%):
Total (146.88986%):
700 g  |  24.69 oz | 1.54 lbs
300 g  |  10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs
0.23 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp** | 0.03 tbsp
28 g | 0.99 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.02 tsp | 1.67 tbsp
1028.23 g | 36.27 oz | 2.27 lbs | TF = N/A
**0.08 teaspoon of IDY for the Final Mix is about 1 1/4 of the "pinch" mini measuring spoon

As you will note from the above, the amounts of IDY used in the Poolish and in the Final Mix are very small. I don’t know what kind of scale or measuring tools, including mini measuring spoons, you have to measure out such small amounts but if you need help with such conversions, let me know and I will see what I can do.

With respect to the preparation of the Poolish and the dough from the Final Mix, here is the protocol I suggest you follow:

1. On the evening before the day you plan to make and use the final dough, make the Poolish at 8PM, and place it in the wine unit, at a prefermentation temperature of 18C/64.4F, until 10AM the next day (for a total prefermentation period of 14 hours). The water used to make the Poolish should be at a temperature of 15.6C/60F.

2. At 10AM, prepare the final dough as part of the Final Mix and store the final dough in bulk in the wine unit (at 18C/64.4F) until 4PM (a total of six hours). If you are using a Cuisinart food processor to make the dough, you will want to use a water temperature that is on the cool side so that the finished dough temperature is around 26.7C/80F.

3. At 4PM, divide and scale the bulk dough and let the dough balls ferment at room temperature (I have assumed 26.7C/80F in my calculations) until 8PM (a total of four hours).

4. At 8PM, make and bake the pizzas.

Although I have given very precise instructions and times, etc., in real life there are variations that can’t always be anticipated and quantified with great precision. One example is the “mass effect” that Didier Rosada has discussed in his writings, and as Brian Spangler recently mentioned in one of his posts. So, you should also use your powers of observation and prior dough making experience to guide you.

What I will be looking for is to see if the methodology I used to design your dough formulation really works, and how well. Good luck.

Peter
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 07:53:56 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2011, 07:08:54 PM »
now im curious.... im going the opposite way with my calculations, im thinking a smaller poolish...

Andre,

I was in the process of completing my post when I saw that you posted. After reading my post, if you still feel that you should be using less Poolish, you can see from what I posted how to develop the Poolish and Final Mix parts of the Total Formula. The Total Formula itself will not change.

Peter

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2011, 07:58:15 PM »
andre, this is the formula i would use for 1000 grams,poolish: 177 g flour 177 g water .22 g dry yeast or .50g wet mix and room temp rise covered over night.this will be a batter so in the morning look for it to peak and fall slightly in the center.mix it with 823 grams of flour 465 grams of water add your 25 grams of salt after a minute of mixing. mix your normal length of time. let it set as per vpn standards 30 minutes i think. cut and ball. let it proof a couple of hour and make your pizzas. if you want to use it at night put it away in a cooler and pull it two hours before you need it.i use 70 degrees for my finished dough temperature before my stretch.as you can probably tell i am not very scientific . i used 59 percent reduction in all measurements to reduce it to 1000 grams of flour. good luck,larry

Offline andreguidon

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2011, 08:32:24 PM »
WOW Peter !! THANKS ALLOT !!  i will try this for sure... thanks allot again for all the trouble i put you thru...... my calculation i think were off, cause i did not know how to calculate the IDY... i was LOST !!!

thanks Larry, ill try out to incorporate your idea if this formula that Peter gave me does not work perfectly....

PS : i have a 0.1g scale and mini measuring spoons...
« Last Edit: February 24, 2011, 08:36:01 PM by andreguidon »
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