Author Topic: poolish for neapolitan...  (Read 10376 times)

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Offline andreguidon

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poolish for neapolitan...
« on: February 22, 2011, 05:40:41 PM »
Hi every one !!

well, i want to make a same day dough using a poolish made the day before, so i could have flavor and still have some strength of the caputo flour... would love to make dough in the morning and bake it at night.... all room temp... but im having a hard time calculating this formula... has any one done something like this ?

THANKS !!
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Offline Matthew

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2011, 05:56:11 PM »
Hi every one !!

well, i want to make a same day dough using a poolish made the day before, so i could have flavor and still have some strength of the caputo flour... would love to make dough in the morning and bake it at night.... all room temp... but im having a hard time calculating this formula... has any one done something like this ?

THANKS !!

Andre,
Check out the "how to get rid of the water" thread under NY Style.

Matt

Offline pizzablogger

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2011, 06:02:49 PM »
Hi every one !!

well, i want to make a same day dough using a poolish made the day before, so i could have flavor and still have some strength of the caputo flour... would love to make dough in the morning and bake it at night.... all room temp... but im having a hard time calculating this formula... has any one done something like this ?

THANKS !!

How many pizzas are you planning on making? That'll help determine how much poolish you would need.

Generally, you mentioned a poolish made the day before making the dough. For an overnight rise of 7-8 hours, you should use approximately 0.7% CY or 0.2% IDY as a percentage of the flour in the poolish to have the poolish matured in 7-8 hours.

For a 12-15 hour rise before the poolish is matured and ready to use, approximately 0.1% CY or .03% IDY as a percentage of the poolish flour.

This assumes ambient temps of 80-85F and cool water of around 60F used in creating the poolish.
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Offline andreguidon

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2011, 05:47:11 AM »
thanks Matt, ill check it out !

PizzaBlogger, thanks for you answer also, i always make 12 pies, 360g balls, i wondering how can i do this cause i purchased a wine cellar and know i have stable temps. how can i figure out the % of the poolish ?
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Offline norma427

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2011, 08:35:54 AM »

andreguidon,

I dont know if this post will help you are not, but Peter gave this reply at 555 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg127594.html#msg127594

When working with a commercial yeast formula there are no dough calculating tools that can do that job.  This is also what I replied to doughboy55 at Reply http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg127600.html#msg127600

I just try different methods of using a poolish incorporated in some of my experimental doughs, by using other formulas I have tried with a commercial yeast.  For some of my tests I just used the poolish I use from one dough ball and then take that times the number of dough balls I might want to try.

Norma

Offline andreguidon

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2011, 08:41:19 AM »
thanks Norma, im going to read about this and post results...
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2011, 09:05:27 AM »
Andre,

What Norma posted summarizes the issues involved in using poolish and other commercially-leavened preferments. The percent poolish to use is discussed in the first Rosada article referenced in Norma's post. That is a number that you will have to experiment with. The same Rosada article also gives recommended formulations for the poolish based on the desired duration of the prefermentation. I believe they are the same numbers as pizzablogger set forth in his post. The most critical component is the prefermentation temperature. If that is different than what Didier Rosada recommends, then you will have to adjust the amount of yeast and maybe the poolish water temperature (which I consider the lesser factor). Can you tell me what temperature your wine cooler would be set to operate at?

Your starting point should be a good general dough formulation. That would represent the Total Formula. Then you would convert it to a three-stage protocol, as is shown in some of the examples referenced in Norma's post. If you get to the point where you feel you need help with the numbers, let me know. Your case should be one of the simpler ones because you most likely will only be using flour, water, salt and yeast.

BTW, I once asked Marco (pizzanapoletana) whether poolish was used in Naples. He said no, at Reply 54 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2088.msg24291/topicseen.html#msg24291.

Peter

Offline andreguidon

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2011, 11:25:17 AM »
Hi Peter, thanks for the answer also... im shooting for a poolish that i could make at night and use in the morning, then bake the pizza at night around 8PM, my wine cooler is set to 18C that is close to 65F, the balled dough will no stay in the cooler, usually i make dough at home (i live in a apartment) and bake them at my parents house (that where the WFO is) i live close... the summer here in Brazil is HOT, so i need to use the cooler simulate a cool room temp... I know poolish is not use in neapolitan pizza, but i like the way it works for bread so i want to test it for pizza, the problem is i have no idea how much yeast i have to use for this long process... i also will like to take advantage of this process and use caputo at the optimal usage time, cause i feel that longer fermentation times are causing the dough to get very weak....
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2011, 11:40:54 AM »
Andre,

From what you are saying, it sounds like you would like to make the poolish at night, put it in your wine unit overnight so that it can preferment at around 18C/65F, and then use it to make the final dough the next morning that will then be allowed to ferment all day at room temperature, in a fairly hot environment, until around 8 PM, when the pizzas would be made and baked. Did I get it right? If so, what time at night do you want to start the poolish and what time on the following morning would you like to make the final dough? And what is a typical room temperature this time of year where you live? And when would you divide the bulk dough into individual dough balls?

Finally, but importantly, do you have a particular starting dough formulation in mind that you would like to convert to a poolish format?

Peter


Offline andreguidon

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2011, 12:48:12 PM »
almost right.... after the dough is mixed it will bulk ferment in the wine cooler, then after its balled it we be in a hotter place, like say 26C to 28C (wen its summer).... my formula is caputo flour 60% hydration.... 2.5% salt, in the summer i use 2.8% and wen its cold i use 2%.... thanks PETER !!

PS: i would like to ball the dough 4 hours before the bake...
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2011, 01:46:14 PM »
Andre,

At what time at night would you like to make the poolish and at what time the next day do you want to make the final dough? And will you be using any commercial yeast in the dough and, if so, how much and what type?

Peter

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2011, 01:52:17 PM »
well, the commercial yeast will be used in the poolish, im not sure if i need any in the final dough, maybe mix the dough @10-11am, the poolish could be made any time between 7 and 10pm... the APizza dough that Matt posted above has a time frame closed to want i want... but the temps change a little....
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2011, 01:54:05 PM »
Andre,

And what kind of yeast (fresh, IDY or ADY)? And how much is in your basic recipe? Will the dough be made by hand or by machine?

Peter
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 01:55:51 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline thezaman

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2011, 01:58:07 PM »
ITEM TOTAL PREFERMENT ADD
Flour 1700 300 1400
Water 1088 300 788
Salt 42 0 42
Yeast (dry) ? 1/8 t. ?



This is a sourdough style recipe. The yeast is a bit of a guess but should be about right. Mix the flour, water, and yeast about 7-8 pm at night. Check it about 10 pm. It shouldn't have done much. If it has gotten frothy, put it in the fridge.

Next morning the preferment should have lots of bubbles and be sort of frothy. IF it IS, great. If it has already peaked and fallen significantly (can tell on the sides and the surface will look concave (depressed relative to the edges) then next time reduce the yeast a bit. If it has few or no bubbles then increase yeast next time (doubling or halfing depending is a good estimate.) More on if it is "dead" later.

Next morning add the remaining flour, water and salt. If the preferment is frothy just mix it up and go. I would give it a fold every half hour for about 1 1/2 hours. At two hours or so form the loaves (anything from baguettes to boules). Let them rise till about 75% expanded (probably about three hours and bake as normal.

Now...if it wasn't frothy.... If it has peaked and still looks pretty bubbly I would do as above. If it is dead (few or no bubbles) it is okay to go ahead but there isn't enough yeast. So.... we will need to add yeast

I would ratio the amount of yeast to what you did before or what you would do if you didn't have a preferment. I.e. if it was 1 t. for 1000 grams of flour then add about 1 3/4 t. for 1700 grams... (1700/1000 is appx 1 3/4). It will probably have a bit too much yeast and will probably rise a bit fast but shouldn't be a problem. Just expect to bake a bit sooner.

That should work pretty well and give you a good flavor. I should note that simply soaking about 1/4 the flour overnight in water will give a very similar flavor for you are mainly benefiting from enzymes and not yeast or bacteria for flavor development in the overnight preferment.

I know that is a lot of choices and decisions, but it is really a Bread 101 logic and if you understand it you can pretty much do anything you want.

A big variable that I am not real sensitive to is swapping sourdough for instant yeast. I know instant is more robust and faster so I hedged the recipe a bit. It might be a bit much....which is why I suggested the preferment might look 'dead". this is bread based but it makes a really good pizza i used a/p for the poolish and the remainder was caputo.

Offline andreguidon

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2011, 02:01:37 PM »
well, i just got the wine cooler, and before my dough was a cold fermented for 20 to 24h and 5h balled room temp... and i was using .4 IDY the dough was made and sat 1h outside before it wen in the fridge, and before it was balled it sat 1h also out of the fridge....

i pretend testing CY and IDY...
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Offline andreguidon

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2011, 02:05:56 PM »
thanks Larry !! im gathering all of this info. and will start sime tests !!
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 05:25:12 PM by andreguidon »
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Offline forzaroma

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2011, 03:47:10 PM »
ITEM TOTAL PREFERMENT ADD
Flour 1700 300 1400
Water 1088 300 788
Salt 42 0 42
Yeast (dry) ? 1/8 t. ?



Are these numbers in Grams?


Offline thezaman

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2011, 05:20:31 PM »
 yes all grams,this is the pizza from that dough

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2011, 06:15:16 PM »
crumb shot

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2011, 06:25:37 PM »
Larry,

Is the recipe posted yours and are the photos yours?

Peter

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2011, 06:29:20 PM »
yes and yes.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2011, 07:08:04 PM »
Larry - very nice looking pies and crumb shot.   What type of flour are you using and what is the bake time on those pies? 

Thx,
Chau

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2011, 08:17:58 PM »
yes and yes.

Larry,

Thank you. That is a fine looking pizza.

I took your data and converted it to the usual three-stage protocol that I am accustomed to using. I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html simply to produce a clean formatting of the data. That is why there are some oddball baker's percents. I also did some tweaking of some of the numbers to be sure that the totals are correct.

Total Formula
Flour (100%):
Water (64%):
IDY (0.02215%):
Salt (2.4706%):
Total (166.49275%):
1700 g  |  59.96 oz | 3.75 lbs
1088 g  |  38.38 oz | 2.4 lbs
0.38 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.13 tsp | 0.04 tbsp
42 g | 1.48 oz | 0.09 lbs | 7.53 tsp | 2.51 tbsp
2830.38 g | 99.84 oz | 6.24 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: No bowl residue compensation

Preferment (Poolish)
Flour (100%):
Water (100%):
IDY (0.12551%):
Total (200.12551%):
300 g  |  10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs
300 g  |  10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs
0.38 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.13 tsp | 0.04 tbsp
600.38 g | 21.18 oz | 1.32 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The poolish uses 27.574% of the Total Formula Water

Final Mix
Preferment (from above) 600.38 g | 21.18 oz | 1.32 lbs
Flour (100%):
Water (56.2857%):
Salt (3%):
Total (159.2857%):
1400 g  |  49.38 oz | 3.09 lbs
788 g  |  27.8 oz | 1.74 lbs
42 g | 1.48 oz | 0.09 lbs | 7.52 tsp | 2.51 tbsp
2830.38 g | 99.84 oz | 6.24 lbs | TF = N/A

I'm not sure what amount of IDY Andre would need for his particular timeframes. His dough will be spending around 4 hours at a room temperature of around 78.7-82.4 degrees F (26-28 degrees C). That may complicate things, especially if his timetable is not flexible. I think it may be possible to calculate an amount of yeast (IDY) to fit his timetable more closely, but it would take a lot of complicated math to come up with that value (I believe that there would be two amounts of IDY used, one for the poolish and a second for the Final Mix).

If Andre decides to try your recipe, it should be fairly easy to adapt it for his dough ball weights. He might not want to make 12 dough balls for the test. He may want to make only a few dough balls for experimental purposes. However, he will still have to do some experimenting on the amount(s) of IDY to fit his timetables.

Peter

« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 08:24:24 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline andreguidon

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2011, 08:26:06 PM »
thanks peter !! i will give this a try... maybe not using the WFO, ill just make the dough and make some pitabread or something.... next week starts carnaval here, some ill have 4 to 5 days to practice, and for sure will make pizza !!
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: poolish for neapolitan...
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2011, 08:31:14 PM »
Andre,

As you are spending most of your time drinking and dancing and having a good time at the carnival, I will torture myself by trying to re-design your dough recipe to see if I can get it to fit your timetable, from beginning to end. I won't know if I can do it until I work the numbers. I will use two 360 gram dough balls for the math.

Peter