Author Topic: poolish for neapolitan... (Read 6844 times)

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #60 on:** March 08, 2011, 11:07:11 AM »

Thank you Andre for the explanation. If you are interested, I recently made a starter from CY and treat and use it just like a starter. It is basically using a CY poolish/preferment without having to make a new one each time 12 hours prior to making pizza. Instead, I take it out of the fridge and depending on when I last used it, it is ready to go within a couple of hours. IMO, it gives me the same results as if I were make a CY preferment/poolish 12 hours prior. I'll post up some links later if you are interested.

Chau

dellavecchia · « **Reply #61 on:** March 08, 2011, 11:16:50 AM »

Quote from: andreguidon on March 08, 2011, 10:54:12 AM

the CY is being used cause i feel that the dough puffs up better, and the poolish because i feel that i want the taste of the longer (room temp) fermentation but still want the integrity of the caputo flour....

Andre - What do you think is pushing the limit of caputo in terms of room temp fermentation time?

John

andreguidon · « **Reply #62 on:** March 08, 2011, 11:40:28 AM »

thanks Chau, i will like the links to read about your CY starter, and will try it in this formula...

John, i think wen you go over 12-14h Caputo (pizzeria) starts to brake down (little by little) thats why (in my opinion) that Keste's dough is so fragile, and after a couple of tries i dint like the cold fermentation with this flour... and the info that i received in the VPN training is that they use 30% manitoba for longer fermentation for integrity purpose...

dellavecchia · « **Reply #63 on:** March 08, 2011, 11:58:49 AM »

Quote from: andreguidon on March 08, 2011, 11:40:28 AM

thanks Chau, i will like the links to read about your CY starter, and will try it in this formula...

John, i think wen you go over 12-14h Caputo (pizzeria) starts to brake down (little by little) thats why (in my opinion) that Keste's dough is so fragile, and after a couple of tries i dint like the cold fermentation with this flour... and the info that i received in the VPN training is that they use 30% manitoba for longer fermentation for integrity purpose...

Thanks for the insight Andre.

John

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #64 on:** March 08, 2011, 01:32:58 PM »

Andre, I made mention of the CY starter here...at reply #43

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12824.40.html

I have made pizza and bread with it several times with decent results.

Here is a 6 hour pie made with the CY starter in reply #48.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13036.40.html

I need to do more experiments with it to see its true potential but so far and as far as I can tell, it produces very similar results to using straight CY. I'll have to do more comparisons to know for sure.

What I like even better than the CY starter is my hybrid starter I posted about in that first link. This started out as an IDY starter. Basically an IDY poolish (same as the one you made in this thread). Instead of making poolish 12 hours before, I wanted to see if I couldn't just make an IDY starter to keep on hand and refresh as needed so it's ready to go within a couple of hours. It worked great, which lead to the experiment to see if starters could get contaminated. I then added a tablespoon of the ischia starter to the IDY starter to create a hybrid starter.

I have been using this hybrid starter for over a month now with good results. It gives the lift of IDY and a very very mild ischia flavor even when I extend the fermentation time out. It produces much less acids than a regular ischia starter would for the same long fermentation protocol.

If you (or anyone else) decide to make an IDY or CY starter, I would love to hear about your results.
I would love to know if you think there is a difference in texture/taste between an IDY or CY starter versus using straight IDY or CY, whether doing an emergency dough or a long room temp fermentation comparison.

Concerning a long room temp protocol like Roberto's I have found the opposite as you. Working with a 75/25 (oo/hg) blend and either CY or IDY for a sub 30 hour fermentation, I have notice better results in the form of oven spring and texture. The crumb seems to have better structure rather than not. I can't explain it, so I hope some of the experts can tell me what is going on. What is it about a low yeasted long room ferment dough that makes it puff up so much. Is it just my imagination? I think John noticed this as well in his Keste's Clone thread.

But again, I haven't used this workflow a lot or for a 100% caputo 00 pies so i can't be sure yet.

Chau

andreguidon · « **Reply #65 on:** March 08, 2011, 03:52:23 PM »

thanks Chau, ill read it, an a soon as i can ill test it... and for sure will post results !!

concerning keste's pizza, i bet they taste great, and also agree they puff up nicely !! what im talking about is how to handle the dough, as you mentioned you use 30%hg flour, that makes the dough stronger and makes it easier to handle (and its a shame, we dont have HG flour here), wen you have the opportunity try making 100% caputo pizzeria 30h dough, ive done this, and it was very hard to handle, Roberto is a true artist.....

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #66 on:** March 08, 2011, 04:17:09 PM »

Ahhh, I see. Thank you for expanding. I'll make some 100% caputo pies as soon as I get my WFO setup in the next couple of months.

Chau

Mmmph · « **Reply #67 on:** March 08, 2011, 04:40:31 PM »

Quote from: Jackie Tran on March 08, 2011, 01:32:58 PM

If you (or anyone else) decide to make an IDY or CY starter, I would love to hear about your results.
I would love to know if you think there is a difference in texture/taste between an IDY or CY starter versus using straight IDY or CY, whether doing an emergency dough or a long room temp fermentation comparison.

I've done IDY poolish ever since I first found Varasano's recipe online. I've done CY poolish since I found a reliable source for CY.

IMO, the main differences with poolish vs without that I found were:

- The poolish allows for much shorter final dough knead time, leading to a lighter, airy, open crumb, particularly when paired with an autolyse before adding the poolish. It seems like 50%+ of the gluten formation has occurred before I even turn on the mixer....

- The dough is more extensible, more quickly. After mixing, the dough may not windowpane. Give it 20-30 minutes and bang!

- Better flavor in a shorter time, in that I can whip up a poolish quickly at 7am, go to work, come home at 6pm, mix the final dough, ball it up and bake a quality pie at 9pm...or refrigerate the dough balls over night and have an ever better quality finished product to fire up in the afternoon. I let the poolish do its work, while I'm at work.

- Dough made with a poolish produces a better looking crust/cornicione in a lower temp oven.

I admit, I've moved away from pre-ferments since dellavecchia started the Keste clone thread. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12606.0.html

A 24 hour bulk rise with .02% CY makes me all warm and fuzzy. I'll be trying this approach with AP flour this week. I ran a test batch with AP this past week with one turn at 2 hours, and one turn at 12 hours. Unfortunately, the weather prevented me from baking on my LBE. I opened the doughs up anyway. They were bangin'. Light, bubbly, stretchy and easy to work...smelled great. Weather looks to be no problem for a 3/12 or 3/13 LBE bake. I'll post.

andreguidon · « **Reply #68 on:** March 08, 2011, 05:59:43 PM »

Chau, your are making great pies now, i cant imagine what you are going to do with a WFO !!

TXCraig1 · « **Reply #69 on:** March 08, 2011, 08:19:10 PM »

Quote from: Jackie Tran on March 08, 2011, 04:17:09 PM

Ahhh, I see. Thank you for expanding. I'll make some 100% caputo pies as soon as I get my WFO setup in the next couple of months.

Chau

What did you decide to do for a WFO?

Craig

Jackie Tran · « **Reply #70 on:** March 08, 2011, 08:57:27 PM »

Mmmph - thank you for your valuable feedback. I'll have something to compare to when I start doing those specific comparisons myself. I have some room in my garage so I moved the LBE in there. Makes for quicker heat up times and just all around more pleasant bake.

Andre - thanks. I hope to keep improving all the time. I won't know how I'll do with the WFO. I hope that I'll be a natural instead of having to start from scratch again. I know there is a lot to learn about fire management and baking in a WFO in general, but hope that I won't have to come up with completely new recipes. I hope to be able to make pies that look as nice as yours, John's (Dellavechia & JConk), Bill's, Matt's, Larry's, and so many other pros here. Kudos to all those WFO warriors who have blazed the trail.

Craig - I once had this crazy notion of building a WFO brick by brick to get the exact dimensions that I want. The reality is that I'd rather spend the time baking pies than working a wet saw, brick & mortar on weekends for months on end. You probably know this already, but if you are still interested in building one, FB has assembled a pompeii oven kit you can buy for around $1000 + shipping. I think that's what I would do if I was building one by hand.

I've settled (I think) on the FB premio2g100 (40" ID) unless there are others in it's price range that I should consider. Any input from anyone is always greatly appreciated. The premio2g's ceiling height of 16" is plenty low enough for me. Just waiting for the ODK quote to come in and I'll be placing the order for the WFO very soon.

My apologies for derailing this thread.

Chau

Pete-zza · « **Reply #71 on:** March 09, 2011, 09:58:03 AM »

Andre,

Since you decided to use cake yeast instead of IDY, I went back and took a look at my calculations to see how they might be affected by the switch. Fortunately, the only numbers that should change are the amounts of cake yeast, which is a change that you handled correctly by tripling the weight of the IDY. What would change the numbers is if you change the times and/or temperatures. Your change in the amount of salt is a minor change that shouldn't affect what you are doing, particularly in relation to the weight of flour. In fact, you want the flexibility to make changes to the dough formulation in line with traditional Neapolitan practices. From time to time, Marco (pizzanapoletana) discussed how to use salt to speed up or slow down the fermentation based on ambient temperatures (usually based on the season). Doing that within the normal range of salt usage shouldn't materially affect the way the dough formulation is used.

It also dawned on me that the same methodology I used to come up with your dough formulation should work with the Brian Spangler dough formulation, which uses a dough preparation/management protocol that is similar to what you used. In that case, the numbers would be different because of the use of different times and temperatures. There may also be a different reference standard with Brian's dough formulation. In your case, I assumed a doubling of the final dough.

Peter

andreguidon · « **Reply #72 on:** March 09, 2011, 10:18:24 AM »

thanks Again Peter, i will try this formula with IDY and post results, and Brian's pizza is almost the same but so different at the same time, cause the time frame is very close, but the flour that he uses is not 00 and that changes allot cause the protein level and the P/L are very different...

Pete-zza · « **Reply #73 on:** March 09, 2011, 10:57:21 AM »

Andre,

What you say about Brian's dough is correct. However, the type of flour per se is not a factor in the calculations. What is important is having a reference standard. In your case, I assumed a doubling of the final dough. That would be your reference standard. I don't recall whether Brian's dough formulation is based on a doubling of the final dough. It could be some other number, such as a 50% increase in volume. If so, that would be his standard. The calculations can't be done without a standard. Fortunately, I had a pretty good idea as to the amount of yeast to use to enable a dough to double in volume over a roughly 20-24 hour period at room temperature. Apparently, that was good enough for your purposes.

Peter

andreguidon · « **Reply #74 on:** March 09, 2011, 11:41:08 AM »

i get it !! you use to dough volume as a reference...

Pete-zza · « **Reply #75 on:** March 09, 2011, 01:07:44 PM »

Quote from: andreguidon on March 09, 2011, 11:41:08 AM

i get it !! you use to dough volume as a reference...

Andre,

Yes, that is correct. Using a doubling doesn't mean that you couldn't use the dough balls sooner or later (without overfermenting, of course). However, you would perhaps have to run a test or a few tests to find the point where the dough balls perform best. Knowing that point could be used to re-do some or all of the calculations to come up with a new value of cake yeast or IDY to get the final dough balls to that point. It's hard to be precise on these matters because there aren't many, if any, members who design their own dough formulations completely on paper before using as was done in your case with specific temperatures and timetables.

Peter

andreguidon · « **Reply #76 on:** March 09, 2011, 01:15:20 PM »

yea thats true, the temp control helped allot...

Fernando · « **Reply #77 on:** May 30, 2011, 11:08:05 AM »

Hi Andre,
I've baked some Pizzas last Sat and I really enjoy it. Pizza's came out very tasty, even without using Caputo Flour.
Here are some photos of them.

Thanks.

Fernando

andreguidon · « **Reply #78 on:** May 30, 2011, 12:24:33 PM »

Great Job Fernando!! what flour did you use? and did you use this recipe??

Fernando · « **Reply #79 on:** May 30, 2011, 02:16:58 PM »

Thanks Andre,
Next week I'll try to improve it.

I did 3 different types of dough for a test. One I did use the recipe in here with COLATIVA flour.
The second one i made with Bunge Premium Flour with a levain.
And the third I use the recipe of pizza dough from Hamelman.

All of them came out nice, tasty. There were slightly different between them.

I'm looking forward to get the Caputo flour.
Next time I'll use a better camera to take the pics...

I add a Catupiry pic bellow