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Offline UTAtheatreguy

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Newbie in need of guidance
« on: January 14, 2011, 03:32:21 PM »
Greetings everyone. I'm a recent college grad and Dallas-ite and pizza has been my passion since I was old enough to speak. I am a newbie to this forum as well as pizza making.

I am by no means an even good cook but my dream has been to replicate pizzeria quality pizza. I love a plain cheese with an extra cheese, light on the red sauce. Alfredo (sauce and Mozzarella only) and white pizzas have always been a love of mine. As far as style, I love everything from delivery, pizzerias and most dedicated restaurants. The only store bought pizza that even remotely compared to anything good was Pizzeria Uno's (Uno's Chicago Grill) pizza sold in supermarkets.

Styles include:

- Thick crust
- thin
- NY
- Chicago

and to a lesser extent Californian.

So given that this is a life long dream of mine to have the proper tools and instructions to craft pizza...how would I go about replicating pizza? What type of oven equipment would i be looking at....would it be a huge financial investment or are there reasonably priced instruments or ovens that will help me towards this.

That's it, I'm plunging myself in the deep end. Thanks in advance for all your help.

Offline scott123

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Re: Newbie in need of guidance
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2011, 04:38:37 PM »
Paul, help me clarify something here.  Are you looking to make a pizza or two for yourself/friends/family or are you looking for an oven that will produce on a commercial level?

Any home oven, as long as it can comfortably hit 500 degrees, can, with a conductive enough stone, make pizzeria quality NY style thin crust pizza (with white or red sauce). 1/2" steel plate is conductive enough to work well at 500, while 1.25" slab soapstone will work well in the 550 realm. 1/2" steel plate isn't cheap (most likely in the $150 realm for an 18 x 18 piece), but it's easier to find than soapstone.

Or... you can go with a less expensive stone (cordierite works well) and push your oven slightly past it's peak operating temp with some sort of mod/trick.

Offline UTAtheatreguy

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Re: Newbie in need of guidance
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2011, 05:31:04 PM »
Paul, help me clarify something here.  Are you looking to make a pizza or two for yourself/friends/family or are you looking for an oven that will produce on a commercial level?

Any home oven, as long as it can comfortably hit 500 degrees, can, with a conductive enough stone, make pizzeria quality NY style thin crust pizza (with white or red sauce). 1/2" steel plate is conductive enough to work well at 500, while 1.25" slab soapstone will work well in the 550 realm. 1/2" steel plate isn't cheap (most likely in the $150 realm for an 18 x 18 piece), but it's easier to find than soapstone.

Or... you can go with a less expensive stone (cordierite works well) and push your oven slightly past it's peak operating temp with some sort of mod/trick.

Thanks for your post. I'd like to make really good pizza but on the private individual level (friends, family).

As far as replicating the taste of my favorite pizzas, how would I go about procuring the ingredients used in their pizza? Is such information a closely guarded secret or are there ways of finding such things out?

I'm willing to work towards an investment but wasn't sure how expensive it would be...

Offline scott123

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Re: Newbie in need of guidance
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2011, 08:28:29 PM »
Paul, here's sort of a bare bones budget for an aspiring home pizza maker

Digital scale $20
Infrared Thermometer (ebay) $20
1" x 18" x 18" Cordierite Kiln shelf $50 (shipped)
Wood Peel $20
Flat Cookie sheet $10
Clear round plastic food containers $6
Bottled yeast (walmart) $4
All Trumps Flour 50# $16

Here's the upgrade

Digital scale (more features) $50
Probe thermometer $10
High temp IR thermometer (should you ever own a WFO) $80
Bosch Universal Plus mixer $400
1/2" x 18" x 18" steel plate ~$150
Wood Peel $20
Good Metal Peel $100
Pyrex 7 Cup round glass storage containers (2) $15
Proofing pans (2) $20
Bottled yeast (walmart) $4
All Trumps Flour 50# $16

It seems, to me, that the people who do oven tricks don't do them every week.  Some tricks are easier than others, and, if you're electrically inclined, you can wire a switch into the thermostat circuit, but, generally speaking, the $150 for steel plate will remove the need for modding and most likely save you quite a bit of work.  That's the only upgrade that I really recommend.

If you're going the cordierite/oven mod route, you're going to need an IR thermometer, but if you get the steel plate, you could get the IR thermometer later on. You'll still want one eventually, though. I don't use a probe thermometer, as I knead by hand (very little friction/heat generation) and use room temp water (checking the house thermostat before I start).  I also use recipes that require very little kneading. If you get the bosch (stay away from Kitchenaid), you'll want a probe thermometer for measuring the final temp of the dough.  There's $20-ish metal peels, but they're really clunky.  I'm currently using a cookie sheet myself until I find a decently priced non-clunky peel. Finding clear plastic round food containers that are large and wide enough (ideally about 8" wide and 3" tall) is no easy task. I ended up suffering through square containers (really hard to form the dough) until I graduated to real proofing pans.  The 7 cup pyrex  containers are a little small for 16" NY style doughs, but they give you an excellent view of the underside for determining proper fermentation.

Shipping is very expensive on the stones. If you can find a local ceramics supplier, you might be able to trim the kiln shelf price to $30 and, if you can find a metal supplier, you might get the steel plate for $100.

Sauce recipes can be a bit of a secret, but, as far as everything else goes, commercial pizza making is pretty much an open book. It's a little difficult for beginners to get their head around, but great pizza isn't about finding the 'perfect' recipe.  Great pizza is, imo,

65% oven setup (primarily the right stone)
8% professional flour (bromated)
7% understanding fermentation/yeast (through practice)
7% motor skills/forming/launching (again, through practice)
5% understanding gluten (not overkneading/not underkneading)
4% getting the right thickness factor
4% everything else (recipe, sauce etc.)

As far as procuring the ingredients goes, your local supermarket should have everything other than the flour.  To obtain real pizzeria flour (All Trumps is a popular choice), you'll need to go a distributor.  Some distributors will sell to the public (cash and carry), some will only sell to restaurants and some will have minimum orders.  I would try all of these and see if they'll sell you a single 50# bag of flour:

Restaurant Depot
Dallas, TX   
2151 Irving Blvd.
Dallas, TX 75207-6503
Phone: 214-760-4840
(ask about a day pass)

Dawn Food Products, Inc.
Distribution Center
3353 Miller Park South #100
Garland, TX 75042
Phone:    972-485-8004
     800-442-9713

Roma Foods
5225 Investment Drive
Dallas, TX 75236
800-433-8148

Oh, and everything I've said relates to thin crust NY style (and Californian, which is really just NY with funky toppings).  For Chicago and thick crust, you'll need pans, but that's not my area.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 08:30:32 PM by scott123 »

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Newbie in need of guidance
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2011, 11:23:36 PM »
Here is an even more bare bones list:

5 bucks worth of flour, yeast, and salt.
A 5 buck pizza pan.
A $2.00 can of tomato sauce plus some ordinary kitchen spices.
5 bucks worth of store brand shredded mozzarella.
10 hours reading on these forums.

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Newbie in need of guidance
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2011, 11:37:36 PM »
Scott pretty much nailed it all.You will find alot of the folks here super helpful.I'm still a newbie and been here a while.I'm still learning,but will say after some trial and error,a light bulb goes off in your head and it all starts to come together.Its about exposure to the work you do.The more you do it,the easier it becomes,the more you understand what to do next.

I have made NY style pizzas on a cheap 10 dollar ceramic 16 inch round stone I bought from Big Lots.I used my home electric oven and was able to make some decent pizza at times.I had alot of yucky failures and etc as well.But it took a little time to get there by spending time here and learning.

I am now looking at a larger Cord stone like scott posted.The cheap stones work OK but they can crack easily and don't leave a lot of room to simply slide a pie onto the stone.One time the pie slid off the side but I was able to save it.(My fault I jerked the peel too hard and it about flew towards the back of the stove)
 :-D

You will find most sauces and some dough recipes by pizza chains,restaurants and etc are all secret.They  are not going to tell you anything SPECIFIC if you ask them.

Most of us cannot get the exact recipes.That said,people here DO clone and attempt to make copies and have done very very well.Heck alot of the pizzas people post here in pics,look way better than what anyone can buy.

Many of us share our sauce ideas and recipe,but may find it does not taste like a favorite place we like.Thats a goal to experiment for.I'm still trying different different tomato products over time to see what I prefer.

Its alot of work but its addicting and a challenge.You will also make some good online friends here too.
I wish most of these folks lived nearby,so I can bother them at home for ideas.
 :-D









-Bill

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Newbie in need of guidance
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2011, 05:29:09 AM »
Paul, help me clarify something here.  Are you looking to make a pizza or two for yourself/friends/family or are you looking for an oven that will produce on a commercial level?

Any home oven, as long as it can comfortably hit 500 degrees, can, with a conductive enough stone, make pizzeria quality NY style thin crust pizza (with white or red sauce). 1/2" steel plate is conductive enough to work well at 500, while 1.25" slab soapstone will work well in the 550 realm. 1/2" steel plate isn't cheap (most likely in the $150 realm for an 18 x 18 piece), but it's easier to find than soapstone.

Or... you can go with a less expensive stone (cordierite works well) and push your oven slightly past it's peak operating temp with some sort of mod/trick.

stainless is about $100-125 at that size/thickness.  steel is about 40-65.
pizza, it makes our world go round.

Offline Matthew

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Re: Newbie in need of guidance
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2011, 06:05:18 AM »
stainless is about $100-125 at that size/thickness.  steel is about 40-65.

Stainless is a bad choice for pizza.  It doesn't conduct heat very well & causes erratic baking with cold & hot spots.

Matt

Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie in need of guidance
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2011, 08:41:45 AM »
Greetings everyone. I'm a recent college grad and Dallas-ite and pizza has been my passion since I was old enough to speak. I am a newbie to this forum as well as pizza making.

I am by no means an even good cook but my dream has been to replicate pizzeria quality pizza. I love a plain cheese with an extra cheese, light on the red sauce. Alfredo (sauce and Mozzarella only) and white pizzas have always been a love of mine. As far as style, I love everything from delivery, pizzerias and most dedicated restaurants. The only store bought pizza that even remotely compared to anything good was Pizzeria Uno's (Uno's Chicago Grill) pizza sold in supermarkets.

Styles include:

- Thick crust
- thin
- NY
- Chicago

and to a lesser extent Californian.

So given that this is a life long dream of mine to have the proper tools and instructions to craft pizza...how would I go about replicating pizza? What type of oven equipment would i be looking at....would it be a huge financial investment or are there reasonably priced instruments or ovens that will help me towards this.

That's it, I'm plunging myself in the deep end. Thanks in advance for all your help.

UTAtheatreguy,

I see in your post that you like different styles of pizzas.  What type of pizza would you like to try to make first?  As the other members have posted there are different ways to go about making any kind of pizza you want.  Each style of pizza can use different equipment, different flours and oven set-ups.

You really don’t have to have a lot of financial investment to start one style in my opinion.  Different forum members use different methods for each pizza.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline UTAtheatreguy

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Re: Newbie in need of guidance
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2011, 08:58:08 PM »
UTAtheatreguy,

I see in your post that you like different styles of pizzas.  What type of pizza would you like to try to make first?  As the other members have posted there are different ways to go about making any kind of pizza you want.  Each style of pizza can use different equipment, different flours and oven set-ups.

You really don’t have to have a lot of financial investment to start one style in my opinion.  Different forum members use different methods for each pizza.

Norma

I think I'd like to start with an NY-style Alfredo Cheese pizza. So in addition to learning everything about making regular pizza, I'd need to learn how to make good tasting alfredo sauce. The stuff out of the can is positively gag-worthy.

Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie in need of guidance
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2011, 10:18:28 PM »
I think I'd like to start with an NY-style Alfredo Cheese pizza. So in addition to learning everything about making regular pizza, I'd need to learn how to make good tasting alfredo sauce. The stuff out of the can is positively gag-worthy.


UTAtheatreguy,

I haven’t made too many Alfredo sauces, so I am not an expert on how to make a good Alfredo sauce, but here are some ideas for you to think about from Tom Lehmann and other members of PMQTT for an Alfredo sauce. http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8804&p=59819&hilit=alfredo+sauce#p59819

Maybe other members can tell you how to make a good Alfredo sauce.

If you want to learn about making a NY style dough this is a good starting point, in my opinion.  If you have time read though the whole thread.  It can teach you a lot about how the dough should look and many other things.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19503.html#msg19503

If you also have time this is a good thread to read about the different kinds of Lehmann dough to try for a NY style pizza.  This thread tells about different sizes of pizza to try. and different ways to go about making a NY style pizza.

 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1453.0.html

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Newbie in need of guidance
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2011, 10:37:06 PM »
I agree with Norma,try what she said.The Lehmann's dough formula is excellent.One thing that might be a little confusing for a newbie,is you will see hydration % of dough formulas.Basically,thats how wet the dough will be or how much water is being used.You may see examples of 56% to 60% or 65% etc.

It is possible to go tooo wet and have a sticky dough you cannot handle well nor shape too good after its done rising.I have made those and while they work,its a nightmare to shape and make round.I made a 100% hydration dough and did need alot of extra flour while handling to avoid it sticking to everything and everywhere!

This is something you will learn over time and if you prefer a wetter dough or a in between or a drier one.
The NY style Lehmanns is by far my favorite as a newbie still learning all the time.
 :)








-Bill

Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie in need of guidance
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2011, 10:49:17 PM »

One thing that might be a little confusing for a newbie,is you will see hydration % of dough formulas.Basically,thats how wet the dough will be or how much water is being used.You may see examples of 56% to 60% or 65% etc.

It is possible to go tooo wet and have a sticky dough you cannot handle well nor shape too good after its done rising.I have made those and while they work,its a nightmare to shape and make round.I made a 100% hydration dough and did need alot of extra flour while handling to avoid it sticking to everything and everywhere!

This is something you will learn over time and if you prefer a wetter dough or a in between or a drier one.
The NY style Lehmanns is by far my favorite as a newbie still learning all the time.
 :)


Bill,

I also became confused when I was starting to make pizza, with all the hydration levels.  In my opinion it is good to start at a hydration that isn’t too high, because then you won’t have the sticking issues on the peel, if you aren’t used to shaping the dough, dressing the pie, and sliding the pie from the peel into the oven. 

You are right that in time you will learn why kind of hydration each person likes.  :)

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline UTAtheatreguy

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Re: Newbie in need of guidance
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2011, 08:34:21 AM »
Hi I realized I've not said much on the board but I've been lurking instead, reading and researching. The amount of information will knock you in the dirt. I wanted to go through and reply to people that took the time to help me out.

Here's the upgrade

Digital scale (more features) $50
Probe thermometer $10
High temp IR thermometer (should you ever own a WFO) $80
Bosch Universal Plus mixer $400
1/2" x 18" x 18" steel plate ~$150
Wood Peel $20
Good Metal Peel $100
Pyrex 7 Cup round glass storage containers (2) $15
Proofing pans (2) $20
Bottled yeast (walmart) $4
All Trumps Flour 50# $16

I will have a bit of extra income in the summer that I can (hopefully) use to make this list a reality. The oven I'll be using, in starting out, is not my oven and therefore, I have NO desire to do over tricks or mods or anything that could affect the standard operation of the oven. I'd prefer to spend the money for the stone. Here's my question: what's a good stone? How do I know what's the right one to buy? I'd prefer to simply bite the bullet and buy a good stone and have it shipped than try to go to a sheet metal place or ceramics place and get the wrong thing.


If you're going the cordierite/oven mod route, you're going to need an IR thermometer, but if you get the steel plate, you could get the IR thermometer later on. You'll still want one eventually, though. I don't use a probe thermometer, as I knead by hand (very little friction/heat generation) and use room temp water (checking the house thermostat before I start).  I also use recipes that require very little kneading. If you get the bosch (stay away from Kitchenaid), you'll want a probe thermometer for measuring the final temp of the dough.  There's $20-ish metal peels, but they're really clunky.  I'm currently using a cookie sheet myself until I find a decently priced non-clunky peel. Finding clear plastic round food containers that are large and wide enough (ideally about 8" wide and 3" tall) is no easy task. I ended up suffering through square containers (really hard to form the dough) until I graduated to real proofing pans.  The 7 cup pyrex  containers are a little small for 16" NY style doughs, but they give you an excellent view of the underside for determining proper fermentation.

I read an article on the slice/serious eats that talked about a food processor. Is that what the Bosch is? And if I do take the plunge for a 400 dollar mixer, are there threads on here that will guide me in properly utilizing it? Can you tell me a bit more about the peels and what they're good for?

Shipping is very expensive on the stones. If you can find a local ceramics supplier, you might be able to trim the kiln shelf price to $30 and, if you can find a metal supplier, you might get the steel plate for $100.

Yup. It'll be worth it though (hopefully :| ).

As far as procuring the ingredients goes, your local supermarket should have everything other than the flour.  To obtain real pizzeria flour (All Trumps is a popular choice), you'll need to go a distributor.  Some distributors will sell to the public (cash and carry), some will only sell to restaurants and some will have minimum orders.  I would try all of these and see if they'll sell you a single 50# bag of flour:

Restaurant Depot
Dallas, TX   
2151 Irving Blvd.
Dallas, TX 75207-6503
Phone: 214-760-4840
(ask about a day pass)

Dawn Food Products, Inc.
Distribution Center
3353 Miller Park South #100
Garland, TX 75042
Phone:    972-485-8004
     800-442-9713

Roma Foods
5225 Investment Drive
Dallas, TX 75236
800-433-8148

I'll check these out immediately. Do you have any preference as far as All Trumps vs. KASL vs. 00 flour?

UTAtheatreguy,

I haven’t made too many Alfredo sauces, so I am not an expert on how to make a good Alfredo sauce, but here are some ideas for you to think about from Tom Lehmann and other members of PMQTT for an Alfredo sauce. [link removed]

Maybe other members can tell you how to make a good Alfredo sauce.

If you want to learn about making a NY style dough this is a good starting point, in my opinion.  If you have time read though the whole thread.  It can teach you a lot about how the dough should look and many other things.

[link removed]

If you also have time this is a good thread to read about the different kinds of Lehmann dough to try for a NY style pizza.  This thread tells about different sizes of pizza to try. and different ways to go about making a NY style pizza.

[link removed]

Norma

This is awesome. Thanks so much.

General question about hydration: There are newbie threads for how to measure how much you're hydrating right?

Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie in need of guidance
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2011, 09:03:50 AM »

General question about hydration: There are newbie threads for how to measure how much you're hydrating right?



UTAtheatreguy,

I am not aware of any special newbie threads about hydration.  Hydration is how much water is added to the amount of flour and other ingredients used.  If you look at the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html or one of the other dough calculating tools, you can see where you select desired dough hydration.  After you would enter in what ingredients you want to use the expanded dough calculating tool (or other dough calculating tools) automatically gives you the desired hydration you want. 

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie in need of guidance
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2011, 09:56:57 AM »
General question about hydration: There are newbie threads for how to measure how much you're hydrating right?


UTAtheatreguy,

Hydration is a more complicated matter than may appear at first blush. You might want to read the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12211.0.html. That thread, while fairly technical, should give you many insights into the subject of hydration, both from a functional standpoint and from a mathematical standpoint.

Peter


 



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