Author Topic: Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma  (Read 2219 times)

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Offline imaginaryfriend

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Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma
« on: December 08, 2010, 09:16:15 PM »
So, after a couple years of trial and error I can consistently produce an excellent pie using commercial yeast. I've now begun to incorporate natural starter (Camaldoli) in place of the commercial yeast in the usual way - 10% of total dough weight. Unfortunately, my brilliant oven spring has disappeared. The starter is the single change I've made. Recipe is basically - KAAP, 61% Hydration, 10% Starter, 3% Salt, Kneading roughly mirrors Varasano's with two autolyse periods, balled straight from mixer, 12 - 16 hours in proofer at roughly 77F. Rise is better than double. The Camaldoli culture is fully active and I emulate, generally, Bill's (SFNM) starter regimen. Pies bake at 750 (2Stone). Taste is markedly improved with a nice mild tang, but oven spring is nonexistent. I'm clearly missing something here - Any suggestions? Is there something obvious I should change. Thanks in advance.


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2010, 09:49:49 PM »
I don't have a lot of experience with the camaldoli starter but will offer up a possible explanation.

From my limited experience....commercial yeast will usually have a better leavening effect compared to starters given all other variables remain constant.  2ndly, camaldoli gives me a very mild flavor.  Less than Ischia for a similar time of fermentation but  I haven't tested this side by side.   It is possible that if you are getting a tangy flavor, that your dough is overfermenting a bit.  In the later stages of fermentation, the gluten structure is weakening and that can affect oven spring and also give a denser texture in the crumb.   I have also notice that commercial yeast tends to be more forgiving in regards to overfermentation, but again these are only my observations from limited experiments.

I hope you can figure out a good schedule for the starter where you can get a decent flavor and good oven spring. 

Chau

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2010, 10:02:43 PM »
Try bulk fermentation, then balling, then proofing.

Offline imaginaryfriend

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Re: Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2010, 10:06:56 PM »
Try bulk fermentation, then balling, then proofing.

Funny, this answered a follow up question. I will give this a go and report the result. Thanks all.

Offline imaginaryfriend

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Re: Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2010, 01:51:18 PM »
Just to report my results: the bulk rise attempt revived my oven spring :), though in an effort to cover all bases, I changed a second variable. I used cooler room temp (65F) bottled water as opposed to the warm tap I used previously to offset possible over-fermentation. I was very  happy with the results of this regimen and would like to thank those who offered advice. I'm off to activate the Ischia now. Merry Christmas, folks!

Offline davidcwilliams

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Re: Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2011, 05:35:07 PM »
Hey imaginaryfriend,  I too am having issues with oven spring using wild yeast and wanted to try what worked out for you.  How long did you bulk ferment / proof the balls?  Thanks.

Offline imaginaryfriend

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Re: Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2011, 06:15:38 PM »
Man, I've made so many pies since then I can hardly remember. However, I've generally been bulk fermenting anywhere from 12 - 16 hours - completely determinant on schedule. After ballling, I'll usually use within 3 to 6 hours. I use a proofer at anywhere between 77F and 85F for both stages, depending on how quickly I want to move things along.

Offline davidcwilliams

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Re: Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2011, 11:41:50 PM »
Thanks for the reply!  Are you are talking about bulk fermentation in the refrigerator?

This is my formula and procedure right now:

Flour     Water     Starter     Salt
100%    68.26%   4.10%      4.10%

1. Combine and autolyse for 20 minutes.
2. Knead for a few minutes until smooth.
3. Ball and proof at room temperature for 10-15 hours.  (I'd love to get this proofing time a little more controllable)
4. Bake.

Today, after reading about your success with bulk fermentation, I added a 4 hour bulk rest after step 3.

*EDIT*
I just reread your post and realize that when you say 'proofer' you're talking about something that is temperature controlled, not just a proofing container.  I only have the latter.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 11:50:41 PM by davidcwilliams »

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2011, 12:38:12 AM »
right now i have dough made from over 50% starter sitting dormant in my fridge.

until i warm it up, the yeast culture doesn't activate.  i've made pizza with this culture straight from the fridge, and it springs/tastes/looks better than dough sitting out for 3-4 hours.

don't ask me, it defies all logic, but it works.
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Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2011, 12:39:12 AM »
Thanks for the reply!  Are you are talking about bulk fermentation in the refrigerator?

This is my formula and procedure right now:

Flour     Water     Starter     Salt
100%    68.26%   4.10%      4.10%

1. Combine and autolyse for 20 minutes.
2. Knead for a few minutes until smooth.
3. Ball and proof at room temperature for 10-15 hours.  (I'd love to get this proofing time a little more controllable)
4. Bake.

Today, after reading about your success with bulk fermentation, I added a 4 hour bulk rest after step 3.

*EDIT*
I just reread your post and realize that when you say 'proofer' you're talking about something that is temperature controlled, not just a proofing container.  I only have the latter.

preheat your oven until the rangetop is warm, but not hot to the touch.  let the dough rise there as a 'proofer'
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.


Offline davidcwilliams

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Re: Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2011, 12:41:27 AM »
Thanks for the tip.  With wild yeast though, I'm wondering what solution would work best for a total proofing time of an average of 12 hours.  Maybe a safely distanced heating blanket.

Offline davidcwilliams

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Re: Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2011, 12:57:57 AM »
right now i have dough made from over 50% starter sitting dormant in my fridge.

until i warm it up, the yeast culture doesn't activate.  i've made pizza with this culture straight from the fridge, and it springs/tastes/looks better than dough sitting out for 3-4 hours.

don't ask me, it defies all logic, but it works.

Over 50% starter??  What does that mean?  Could you share more of your procedure and method?

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2011, 01:31:13 AM »
i fed and fed my starter until i could get 3lbs of dough using 60% starter.  my starter does not like cool temperatures, it lies dormant below 42ļf until i feed it with warm water or let it sit out on a warm countertop for hours.   i detailed my methods in one of my previous posts with chau (jackie tran) but i dont remember where.
Hotdogs kill more people than sharks do, yearly.

Offline davidcwilliams

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Re: Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2011, 01:38:08 AM »
Very interesting.  I'll see if I can find your old post.

Offline imaginaryfriend

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Re: Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2011, 06:45:46 PM »
Thanks for the reply!  Are you are talking about bulk fermentation in the refrigerator?

This is my formula and procedure right now:

Flour     Water     Starter     Salt
100%    68.26%   4.10%      4.10%

1. Combine and autolyse for 20 minutes.
2. Knead for a few minutes until smooth.
3. Ball and proof at room temperature for 10-15 hours.  (I'd love to get this proofing time a little more controllable)
4. Bake.

Today, after reading about your success with bulk fermentation, I added a 4 hour bulk rest after step 3.

*EDIT*
I just reread your post and realize that when you say 'proofer' you're talking about something that is temperature controlled, not just a proofing container.  I only have the latter.

David,

I've found the use of a proofing box invaluable to my pizza making, particularly when using a natural starter. Once incorporated, my progress ramped up significantly. There are several threads on the topic, and one can be cobbled together for around $10 worth of materials. For me, the ability to control and maintain temperature during fermentation/proofing has been the greatest aid and convenience of the whole process.

Offline davidcwilliams

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Re: Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2011, 01:45:02 AM »
Quote
David,

I've found the use of a proofing box invaluable to my pizza making, particularly when using a natural starter. Once incorporated, my progress ramped up significantly. There are several threads on the topic, and one can be cobbled together for around $10 worth of materials. For me, the ability to control and maintain temperature during fermentation/proofing has been the greatest aid and convenience of the whole process.

$10??  My Panderno proofing container and lid from Amazon was $80!  I'd love to have temperature control for that price!  Maybe you missed a zero!?! I'll start searching the forums now.

Thanks!

Offline Matthew

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Re: Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2011, 02:57:23 AM »
$10??  My Panderno proofing container and lid from Amazon was $80!  I'd love to have temperature control for that price!  Maybe you missed a zero!?! I'll start searching the forums now.

Thanks!

You're not talking about the sames thing.  He's referring to a home made proofing box & you're referring to a dough box.

Matt

Offline davidcwilliams

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Re: Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2011, 03:38:08 AM »
No no... I knew what he was talking about.  I was just surprised that one could be built for that cost while something so simple as a proofing container, (just a plastic box with a lid) could be $80.

Offline norma427

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Re: Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2011, 08:49:30 AM »
davidcwilliams,

If you didnít find the post about the inexpensive proofing box it is at Reply 6 for the one Peter built  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,403.msg4887.html#msg4887 and the one I built at Reply 322 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg102619.html#msg102619 and at Reply 242  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg102100.html#msg102100

Norma
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Offline davidcwilliams

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Re: Starter/Oven Spring Dilemma
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2011, 08:53:11 AM »
davidcwilliams,

If you didnít find the post about the inexpensive proofing box it is at Reply 6 for the one Peter built  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,403.msg4887.html#msg4887 and the one I built at Reply 322 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg102619.html#msg102619 and at Reply 242  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg102100.html#msg102100

Norma


Thank you Norma!  I hadn't had a chance yet to search the forum well. 

I'll look at those links now.

Since my proofing container is large, I'm thinking about going with a heating pad with a dimming dial.


 

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