Author Topic: A16  (Read 4132 times)

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scott123

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Re: A16
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2011, 01:02:38 PM »
Regarding Caputo, I don't buy into the 'Italian' flour concept.  You basically have your malted flours and your unmalted flours as well as your high protein (14%) flours and medium high protein (11-12.5%) flours. Unmalted medium high protein flour is going to work one way, while malted high protein flour is going to work another. If Americans had easy access to a domestic unmalted medium high protein flour, it would produce results identical to Caputo.

I also don't really subscribe to any particularly inherent flavor of wheat. I believe that it takes a certain amount of time for a flour to fully hydrate (most likely longer than 8 hours), and, before that time, it can taste starchy and bland, but, once it's fully hydrated, further fermentation doesn't bring out any more wheatiness, just byproducts of yeast activity and enzymes, which for relatively low yeast long ferments, is mostly enzymes.  Enzyme activity is predominantly sugar generation. The more enzyme activity, the more residual sugar is generated, the more maillard reactions/browning you get, the 'nuttier' the flavor. I firmly believe that the component with the greatest impact on a bread's final flavor is sugar, by a landslide.  Maillard reactions involve protein and sugar, so protein plays a part, but I believe sugar to be the star player.

Malted flour burns too quickly at high temps because of the excess of enzyme generated sugar (and sugar in the malt itself).  Unmalted flour is pale and tasteless at lower temps/longer bake times because of the lack of enzymes/sugar.  This is the sole reason why unmalted Caputo is better for WFOs and malted American flours are superior for NY style temps.

Sugar deprivation and fast bake times produces char.   Instead of sugar based maillard reactions creating golden brown hues, NP crusts go from white to black- leoparding.  The predominant flavor that's associated with unmalted doughs cooked at high temps is char. The predominant flavor that's associated with malted doughs is maillard compounds (nutty, toasty, umami, etc.).   Humanity, as a whole, is hardwired to enjoy maillard browning.  There's umami (glutamates) in mother's milk. Char, on the other hand, is an acquired taste.  Expresso, whiskey, and dark chocolate all derive their flavors from char and all generally require an adult palate to appreciate. Charred Neapolitan is the connoisseur's pizza. Golden Brown Delicious (GBD) NY pizza is the pizza for the masses.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A16
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2011, 01:06:51 PM »
When you guys are talking about "flavor", are you talking about strictly the flavor imparted by the flour itself, flavor attributed from using a starter, flavor from a longer cold fermentation, or a combination of the above.   I would think a fair test would be to do an emergency dough using commercial yeast and a short room temp ferment.   That or just take a spoonful of each and see what tastes better straight from the bag.   ;D  

Chau

When I talk about flavor, I'm referring to all of the above. To my taste, the flavor from the flour itself is probably the least significant of the components and the yeast flavors and products of fermentation the most important. I think the smell also contributes meaningfully to how I perceive the flavor.

Craig
Pizza is not bread.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A16
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2011, 01:36:25 PM »
I firmly believe that the component with the greatest impact on a bread's final flavor is sugar, by a landslide.  

I would agree so long as yeast is not a variable. That is, you're using commercial yeast. To me, when you move to a sourdough starter, the products of the yeast and bacteria have the greatest impact.

Quote
Char, on the other hand, is an acquired taste.  Expresso, whiskey, and dark chocolate all derive their flavors from char and all generally require an adult palate to appreciate. Charred Neapolitan is the connoisseur's pizza. Golden Brown Delicious (GBD) NY pizza is the pizza for the masses.

That is a great thought. I might have to borrow it. You hit the nail on the head. Don't forget great big red wines in that list! 

Craig
Pizza is not bread.

Offline andreguidon

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Re: A16
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2011, 06:58:27 AM »
Scott and John, have you guys tried 5Stagioni flour ? i liked it allot, i has a mixture of soft and hard wheat that works great for longer fermentation, holds better than caputo and the taste for hi heat bakes are very similar....

i used the Blue (superiore).... now im waiting for the new importer to start importing....
http://www.molinoagugiaro.it/italiano/5stagioni-pdf/farine.pdf
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

scott123

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Re: A16
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2011, 12:31:48 PM »
Andre, I have haven't had the chance to work with it.  It does make sense that the 13% protein of the Superiore would stand up better to longer fermentation than Caputo, which, as far as I know, is lower than 13.

It's also refreshing to see an Italian miller that's so transparent about specifications. Although they seem to be sticking with the Italian custom of incredibly vague packaging.  What's up with that?  ;D

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A16
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2011, 12:39:47 PM »
If you are doing 60 second bakes you definitely need to go with unmalted flours, which are hard to come by in our area.  For that I would recommend looking at products from central milling or giustos...  

Craig - Sorry, I do not mean to hijack this thread, but...

Scott - I emailed Nicky Giusto at CM, and they are sending me a 50lb bag of their new 00 "normal", which is 11.5%. The 00 "reinforced" is 13.5%. $26 per bag. Caputo Pizzeria is between 11-12%, so the "normal" should be a really good flour to swap out without having to change my fermentation workflow. Although it will be american flour, so we will see. I am itching for all this snow to melt so I can test it out when it arrives.

Andre - I have never seen the 5Stagioni flour in my area or online. Where are you purchasing it?

John

Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: A16
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2011, 01:06:45 PM »
I am itching for all this snow to melt so I can test it out when it arrives.

You and me both. I wish global warming would hurry up...

Offline andreguidon

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Re: A16
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2011, 01:18:20 PM »
the protein level is close but still make a difference, the big difference is the W factor 360 for the 5stagioni is much stronger than (i think) 240 caputo, thats why im researching neapolitan pizza with a poolish, cause i want the longer fermentation taste and still have the original 8-12 hour that caputo holds very well....
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: A16
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2011, 01:37:16 PM »
the protein level is close but still make a difference, the big difference is the W factor 360 for the 5stagioni is much stronger than (i think) 240 caputo, thats why im researching neapolitan pizza with a poolish, cause i want the longer fermentation taste and still have the original 8-12 hour that caputo holds very well....

Very interesting approach Andre. I am looking forward to your results. FWIW, you can try using miniscule amounts of yeast over a much longer time (30-40 hours total at room temp) to get a long fermentation taste with Caputo. That was the premise of Roberto's Keste clone I did some time ago. The flavor there was phenomenal. But I think your approach with a poolish is right on for an 8-12 hour Caputo ferment.

John

Offline andreguidon

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Re: A16
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2011, 01:59:10 PM »
the W was something that Giulio talked allot during the VPN training, thats why manitoba is mix in with caputo pizzeria for longer fermentation, cause the W is over 400.... ill be making pizza this weekend (its carnaval here from friday the 4th till tuesday the 8th) so ill have allot of time to test !! ill post results for sure...
"Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." Leonardo da Vinci


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A16
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2011, 02:50:16 PM »
Craig - Sorry, I do not mean to hijack this thread, but...

Not a problem. Not sure how we got here, but it's interesting stuff. I have a couple more reviews to write up - hopefully tonight.

Craig
Pizza is not bread.

Offline mitchjg

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Re: A16
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2014, 09:51:43 AM »
At long last, we tried A16 last night.  They had opened a second location in the Rockridge area (East Bay, about 4 miles from my house) about a year ago.  Four of us went and shared appetizers, pizza and a dish - lots of opportunity to try things.

Appetizers - Fried olives, fried smelts, fried cheese balls (forgot the name) -uh oh, too much fried, calamari with fava beans, berkshire pork belly.

The olives and cheese balls were very good.  The smelts were ok - good, but mostly tasteless.  The calamari was meh but the fava beans were great.  The pork belly was fantastic.

Pasta Dish - gnocchi - it was absolutely terrific, we all loved it.  Little potato pillows in a nice sauce that had lemon notes.

The Pizza - Uh Oh.......I was really, really looking forward to this.  It was an opportunity to learn (and maybe compete).  Very disappointing.  I asked the waitress the temperature of the oven and she said it was 900 degrees.  I did not ask things like bake time.

The first two pictures are a margherita topped with proscitto.  We had fun cutting it up with the supplied pizza scissors.  First and immediate comment from my wife - "salty."   I agreed, and too salty at that.  The tomato sauce was simple and delicious.  The cheese was good, but nothing in particular to remember.  The crust - uh oh.  Ok, neapolitan is supposed to be (or can be) sort of soupy / droopy in the middle, right?  But, if it is, are you supposed to have to hack away at it to cut a piece to eat, ending up tearing pieces, with the supplied "butter" knife?   The word we came up with later was "gummy."  I then added "tough."  I do not know why I am supposed to like a pizza that you cannot pick up and you cannot cut without a laser torch.

The best part was everyone at the table said my pizza was much better (ego boost - ding, ding!).

On to the next pie which was a fried pizza (cannot remember the name they used).  It was very good and we enjoyed it, mostly.  But, remember I said "salty?"  This was overpowering salty to the point where it was the only thing you could think about when eating it.  In inspecting the picture, I think those are big grains of sea salt on the pie but I am not sure.  I did not inspect it on the spot, it would have been too difficult - the restaurant is a little on the dark side for food inspection (very nice for the actual dining experience).

Overall, good but disappointing.

In general, I have migrated away from attempts on my own to make neapolitan pies in my FGM 700 and make ny/neo/elite pies at about 700.  But, if this is my competition, I think I have to revisit this choice.

You may also want to check my first picture against the picture Craig posted in the opening to this thread.  Something clearly different in the crust.

- Mitch



« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 04:00:09 PM by mitchjg »

Offline RobynB

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Re: A16
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2014, 07:01:22 PM »
Well, thanks for saving me a visit.  I was thinking of trying to make it up there sometime soon as a friend lives nearby.  No thank you  :-X

One thing I have found at way too many places:  Whatever they SAY the temp of the oven is, subtract at least 150F and usually 200F or more.  My personal favorite was a WFO place in Oregon that said their oven was at 800F.  I walked by the oven and would have been shocked if it was running even 550F.  The pizzas agreed with me, they were as cooked in a home oven, and with dough to match.  8-10 minute cook time, easily. 

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: A16
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2014, 09:26:25 PM »
One thing I have found at way too many places:  Whatever they SAY the temp of the oven is, subtract at least 150F and usually 200F or more.  My personal favorite was a WFO place in Oregon that said their oven was at 800F.  I walked by the oven and would have been shocked if it was running even 550F.  The pizzas agreed with me, they were as cooked in a home oven, and with dough to match.  8-10 minute cook time, easily.

If you come down for the TPS3 this year, I promise the oven will be at hot as I say it is.  ;D
Pizza is not bread.