Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx

[cornicione54]

Watched the ddd show - nice job Jay! Both pizzas an pasta looked seriously good!

[Matthew]

Congratulations Jay.  Hopefully it will air here soon.

Ciao,
Matt

[norma427]

Congratulations Jay.  Hopefully it will air here soon.

Ciao,
Matt

Matt,

This is part of the video in this link. http://www.dfw.com/2012/04/30/614698/diners-drive-ins-and-dives-visits.html

Norma

Jay,

I also really enjoyed the DDD segment on Cane Rosso!    Congrats!  

Norma

[Matthew]

Matt,

This is part of the video in this link. http://www.dfw.com/2012/04/30/614698/diners-drive-ins-and-dives-visits.html

Norma

Jay,

I also really enjoyed the DDD segment on Cane Rosso!    Congrats!  

Norma

Thanks Norma, Very nice Jay! 

Matt

[Jet_deck]

..... you're an ambassador for Neapolitan pizza, and a 1 hour bulk doesn't paint Neapolitan pizza in it's best light.  ....

..... Shortchanging fermentation might be okay for someone that isn't in the spotlight, but, with your fame, you have a responsibility to represent Neapolitan in the best possible light....

Scotty, I love you like the brother I never had.  But what is the difference between dough resting in bulk vs dough resting in balls as far as neo. pizza is concerned?  The amount of yeast? 

Remember that Jay had already got a restaurant VPN and then got them un-VPN when they changed their ways.  I don't think it is fair to think that he is not an ambassador to neo pizza just for that reason.  Help me consider your logic.  I may easily be wrong, but wth?

Thanks again for the Chau tour.  That weekend still provides great stories that I embellish frequently.

[scott123]

Gene, I love you, too, like a brother, and I know how much you (and others) look up to Jay, so I can understand how difficult it is for you when you see me calling Jay out on this. It's Jay's legendary status, though, that makes him more accountable, imo, and you know I can't shut my mouth if I feel like someone's cutting a corner when it comes to proper fermentation.

Fermentation both generates heat and is accelerated by heat.  Because bulk fermented dough is in a large mass, the heat generated by fermentation doesn't dissipate like it would in a ball/you get an insulating effect, which, in turn, drives faster fermentation.  This accelerated fermentation period is a critical component of Neapolitan pizza, because it compensates for a relatively short balled ferment. The net effect of the acceleration during bulk and the relatively short balled gives you a sufficiently fermented dough.

Gene, I'm sure you're already aware of this, but just to make sure we're both on the same page, when I talk about fermentation, I'm not just talking about CO2 generation/yeast activity/dough rising.  Fermentation is both yeast activity and enzyme activity.  Enzyme activity breaks down the dough and generates flavor and digestibility. With Neapolitan pizza and it's traditional enzyme poor unmalted flour, fermentation times/rates, and the enzyme activity they generate, play a vital role. If you cut any corners, you pay- both on the tongue and in the gut.

The timing of CO2 generation as it relates to balling is important as well.  Thanks to Fazzari's research on mid fermentation balling, we're aware of the oven spring benefits of capturing the CO2 of a partially fermented dough with balling. If you shortchange the bulk, you shortchange the pre-balling CO2 generation and you sacrifice some oven spring.

These are the reasons why sufficient bulk fermentation is so important. Jay's a smart guy, so I'm sure he's aware of all this.  Where we most likely part ways, though, is gauging the extent of the impact and acceptability/authenticity of the concession.

[jeff v]

Gene, I love you, too, like a brother, and I know how much you (and others) look up to Jay, so I can understand how difficult it is for you when you see me calling Jay out on this. It's Jay's legendary status,

Jay,

Forget DDD, I didn't know you attained legendary status to boot! That was quick-congrats.

[Jet_deck]

 Where we most likely part ways, though, is gauging the extent of the impact and acceptability/authenticity of the concession.

I can't dissagree on any of your points, but I don't know that I or the general public can differenciate between a 1 hour bulk, 8 hour ball vs a 8 hour bulk, 1 hour ball.  Especially given the toppings and cheese.  I'm not saying either method is right or wrong.  I guess it doesn't make a rats ace difference if I or the general public can't tell.  Varasano made a point on his video about people "in the South" eating slowly, so he cooks the pizzas differently than he would for himself.  I know, not a good example, but at the end of the day, people need to like the food they are being served.

I behold the VPN as a virgin bride.
Possible? Yes.
Probable? Let's be realistic.
I think at face value the VPN is above water.  Politics and whatnot removed, a guideline for "authentic" neo pizza.

[totolemoco]

Dear Scott !
This is Dino, I work for Jay at cane Rosso, I am from
Naples and this coming September will be 24 year I make Neapolitan pizza, which 17 of in Naples Italy, one sly I think you are a tool!
But I will be willing to see you in action at my oven or at the pizza station on a Friday night, just to see how really good you are on the field! But remember in Naples every pizza you scruw up we make you pay for!

[David Deas]

Dear Scott !
This is Dino, I work for Jay at cane Rosso, I am from
Naples and this coming September will be 24 year I make Neapolitan pizza, which 17 of in Naples Italy, one sly I think you are a tool!
But I will be willing to see you in action at my oven or at the pizza station on a Friday night, just to see how really good you are on the field! But remember in Naples every pizza you scruw up we make you pay for!

I don't think we should resort to name calling.  Discussions can get a little heated around here from time to time. And thats OK.  But I've never seen anybody resort to name calling.  That's a sign of immaturity.

Incoherent macho rambling is not necessary.  I don't think Scott ever said you didn't make great pizza.  I think he is saying you could get more flavor out of your dough with a longer ferment (in his typical admonishing tone, nevertheless), which is all debatable stuff.  I agree, however, that complex ferments are typically for the birds in real Neapolitan places that are moving a whole lot of pizzas per day.

On the flip side, I don't think Scott has ever posted a pizza he made.  Based on the few photos I've seen, I think he probably specializes more in eating pizza than making pizza.  So don't count on that oven competition happening any time soon.

[Jet_deck]

I don't think we should resort to name calling.  Discussions can get a little heated around here from time to time. And thats OK.  But I've never seen anybody resort to name calling.  That's a sign of immaturity.

And so is judging someone from their pictures.   

Unlike your regular "contributions", brother Scotty is a highly valuable resource on the forum.  His post always include valid content and addictive NY pizza theology.  Yours, not so much of anything but negativity/contradictions/useless whatnot.

[Bill/SFNM]

Warning shot over the bow from moderators: This thread appears to be sailing into prohibited waters. Please point this discussion back towards pizza. Lively debate about pizza encouraged. Personal attacks are not. Thanks to all for your understanding.   

[David Deas]

And so is judging someone from their pictures.  

Unlike your regular "contributions", brother Scotty is a highly valuable resource on the forum.  His post always include valid content and addictive NY pizza theology.  Yours, not so much of anything but negativity/contradictions/useless whatnot.

I wasn't being serious, Jet.  It was intended as a bit of humor to lighten up the atmosphere.  I thought that was very clear, but I guess not.  I know Scott is a great member here and contributes much to the forum.  It was my intention to stick up for him here.  I didn't think he deserved to be called a "tool" for stating his opinion.

Maybe the joke about specializing in eating pizza rather than making it was bad.  I wish I never said that.  Scott has obviously made a lot of pizza before.  No question about that.

[scott123]

If I'm going to be a 'tool,' hopefully I can be a useful one, like a digital scale or an IR thermometer 

Seriously, though, my zealotry has most likely gotten the best of me and I'm probably making a mountain out of a mole hill. Regardless of my extreme views on fermentation, this thread needs a lot less contention and a lot more celebration.

I've never met Jay personally, but I do know quite a lot of people that have, and the overwhelming consensus is that he's a truly great guy.  Regardless of anything that's been said here, I believe that wholeheartedly, and I have absolutely no doubt that this national acclaim is well deserved.

[Jet_deck]

I have absolutely no doubt that this national acclaim is well deserved.

Yep.  He pretty much worked his butt off to get to where he is.  He is soft spoken, kind,  and knowledgable.  Remember I met him before VPN, DDD and national acclaim.    If you remember from my first post, when I walked in, there was someone there before Jay arrived.  That guy stayed there until I left.  He kept asking Jay if everthing was OK, as he went back and forth to the cooler and the kitchen away from the oven where Jay was working.  He thought I was some lunatic going to mug Jay or something.

Lunatic yes. 
Pizza mugging always.

[DocSpine]

I saw the DDD and thought it was great. The question I would like to ask is how big on an impact has it had on you since the airing of the episode?

[Jet_deck]

Not to answer for Jay, but I would guess that the place was running at full tilt even before the airing of DDD.  He had already expanded to the next door building, putting in a "dough room" when Peter and I were there.  Jay is 100% foodie.

[thezaman]

not sure what is going on here but during my caputo visit, Amato said that 20 minutes bulk was all that was needed for dough development. after that ball it and room rise for 6 to 12 hours, seems that is the Naples way. i saw a lot of different looking proofed dough, some that was proofed out like keste's,others still had the complete round appearance to them. at the average of only 6 euros per pie they have to sell a lot of pies. their method is a volume method and not able to follow the home pizza making methods.

[Jackie Tran]

IMO, whether you bulk for 1 hour, then proof for 23h or bulk for 12 hours then proof for 12 hours it makes little difference.   It's the total hours of fermentation or more importantly the extent of fermentation that makes a more meaningful difference.

How long you keep the dough in the bulk phase matters very little to fermentation.  What it affects more, is the strength of the dough.  As the dough bulk ferments longer the enzymes soften the dough up.  A longer bulk ferment allows you to rebuild that strength mid or post enzyme activity when you go to ball up the dough and gives a different crumb texture, look, and consistency. 

As Larry pointed out, some proof the dough up more and some less.  Some take fermentation further than others.  It's purely preference and to fit the commercial environment.  Even if the dough isn't 100% proof, if customers are waiting, the pies are getting made.

Now more important than the extent to which the dough is fermented is the balance of the gluten structure.  You have factors that strengthen or weaken the gluten structure.  It's balancing these factors during the fermentation along with the baking process that will give you ideal crust and crumb textures.

[TXCraig1]

When I went from 36 hours bulk + 12 hours balls to 24 + 24, my pies (SD) got much better. Same amount of total time, but it sure seems like it made a difference.