Author Topic: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx  (Read 26068 times)

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Offline norma427

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #100 on: May 08, 2012, 06:43:07 AM »
Jay,

Congrats, on making the list of the 15 “Hottest Pizzas across the Eater Universe”!! :pizza: :pizza: :pizza:

http://eater.com/archives/2012/05/07/the-15-hottest-pizzerias-in-the-us.php

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline norma427

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Always working and looking for new information!

Offline fornographer

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #102 on: May 09, 2012, 05:33:54 PM »
When I went from 36 hours bulk + 12 hours balls to 24 + 24, my pies (SD) got much better. Same amount of total time, but it sure seems like it made a difference.

Hi Craig, how would you describe the difference in flavor and texture?   I imagine handling of the dough (they were delicate when opening) was similar? 

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #103 on: May 09, 2012, 06:44:37 PM »
Hi Craig, how would you describe the difference in flavor and texture?   I imagine handling of the dough (they were delicate when opening) was similar?  

The most noticeable difference is better leoparding. If anything, I would say it is slightly less sour - not that is really all that sour in either case. No real difference in texture.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline norma427

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #104 on: May 11, 2012, 08:06:32 PM »
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline jason83

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #105 on: May 19, 2012, 03:03:47 AM »
The pizza there is great, before and after the fermentation changes,  not to mention the awesome sandwiches and friendly staff!  And about the fermentation argument, I'm going to quote the great Adam Sandler in the Movie Billy Madison "Who gives a shi*."

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #106 on: May 19, 2012, 06:42:55 AM »
Norma, thanks for the post.  What a great interview Dino.  You are a true pizzaiolo with the experience to back it up.  I would love to come down to Dallas some day to meet you and try your pizza. 

I agree Jason83, it's all preferential anyway!

Chau

Offline johnnydoubleu

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #107 on: May 23, 2012, 01:18:49 AM »
I tend look at bulk fermentation in the context of a commercial setting to be a practical concern more that a technical one (provided the total fermentation time is adequate for the pizza style). If you are making a lot of dough and can't ball it right away you might employ a bulk ferment. If you are making dough at home, I see no reason you can't ball it up pretty quickly and have the bulk and proof be continuous/one long ferment.

I do think that the time a dough ball "proofs" has some (important) impact/s. There is the aspect of getting proper gluten strength and adequate CO2 (during bulk) -- and then distributing this when you ball. You are more likely to have very large air pockets in a dough that was balled earlier. This may or may not be a bad thing depending. Also a dough that has proofed for longer tends to be more extensible, and in some cases is too extensible. There is that sweet spot of dough that opens easily and quickly but no overly so. Not an easy thing to nail though.

Whatever works for you is what I think you/one/anyone should do. I have done quite a few experiments doing things the "wrong way" on purpose/for kicks and in some cases the results were superior to the "right way". Often methods develop a certain way and stick, regardless of if they are optimal. They become entrenched and people are uncomfortable deviating from the beaten path.

One thing that is very true is that everyone does everything a little bit differently and that's OK with me.

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #108 on: May 23, 2012, 10:21:41 AM »
John, for a guy that's so incredibly knowledgeable about sourdoughs, I am shocked that you're unaware of the impact fermentation has on the taste of dough. This has nothing to do with CO2 or gluten. Difara gets plenty of both in a single hour ferment.  But they also end up with a notoriously tasteless dough that has to be judged on the toppings rather than crust.  Totonno's- same thing- quick ferment, tasteless crust.

Time is taste.  Sure, too much time is going to create other problems, but for an unmalted flour, 9 hours is nothing. 9 hours for an unmalted dough is like 2 for malted. In your experiments doing things the 'wrong' way, have you really achieved flavorful 2 hour malted doughs or 9 hour unmalted ones?  I've spent countless hours trying to achieve this myself and I couldn't do it.  There's no free lunch here. The only way enzymes are going to create a flavorful dough is through time.  If you drastically shortchange that time, you will sacrifice taste, guaranteed.  The science is rock solid on this.

Pizza is a living, breathing, creative work of art, and, as such, can have countless approaches, but when you get into styles, you cannot avoid standards.  And Neapolitan pizza has standards- standards that, if you fail to follow, produce lack of authenticity and lower quality.  9 hours is most likely pretty close to authentic- I'm not arguing that.  But it is a punch in the face to the quality standard set by American Neapolitan pizzerias.  Forget the fact that there isn't a single member in this forum that would ever dream of fermenting Neapolitan dough 9 hours- this isn't about the home baker with their carefree logistics.  Pick any single respected Neapolitan pizza maker in the U.S.- not one of them ferments in anything close to that time frame, regardless of the logistics they have to deal with. Roberto, Giulio, Anthony, Matthew- every single one of them understands the connection between time and good tasting dough, and, regardless of how much of a pain in the butt it is for them to find the space to ferment, they endure that hassle and make it work. They wouldn't dream of putting out anything less than perfect.

Offline johnnydoubleu

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #109 on: May 23, 2012, 10:55:49 AM »
Scott in no way shape of form am I advocating a short ferment and if it sounded like that I apologize.

I was more pointing out that how long the dough is proofed really changes its handling characteristics and that the total time of fermentation is what has mattered most for me. I tend to use dough when I know it's ripe for use as opposed to forcing a timeline do to all the factors that have influence. That is a luxury I have at home.

I agree wholeheartedly that Di Fara, and other similar doughs would certainly benefit from much more extended ferments for a few reasons. However you and I and two other people are the only ones who care. Exaggerating but you get my point. As you noted a malted dough needs less time to develop.

Ultimately what matters for a pizzeria is what enables their business. Somehow I doubt if Jay made a dough that met your (and my) standards that he would sell more pizza and that I would think matters most to him. People (ignorant though they may be) seem to really enjoy his pizza.


Offline othafa9

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #110 on: May 23, 2012, 12:06:09 PM »
Hi, I have been a mostly silent member of this great forum for 5 years and I am a pizzamaker at Cane Rosso.  I worked 4 years at Settebello (Las Vegas) started the pizza program for Chef Scott Conant at DOCG in LV. And was briefly the head pizzaiolo at Pizzeria DaMarco in DC.  This is the first place I've worked where we didn't use a long bulk fermentation (my prefered method) BUT I've never been a part of a restaurant where I'm told or overhear customers say "This is the best pizza I've ever had!" so often. It's a good feeling to hear that ;D. And I hear it ALOT

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #111 on: May 23, 2012, 01:22:55 PM »
Scott in no way shape of form am I advocating a short ferment and if it sounded like that I apologize.

I'm sorry John, when you mentioned the 'wrong' way sometimes being superior, I took that as meaning that drastically short ferments can be superior. Because you're such a doughmaking authority, my misconstruction generated a knee jerk reaction.

While I do agree that Jay may not see any upswing in sales with a longer ferment, I don't think he'd lose sales, and, more importantly, I'd like to think that it's about more than just sales for him. I would never, in a million years, say what I've said, if I didn't think Jay was an obsessive like the rest of us.  If, say, Dom Demarco were to show up tomorrow, regardless of how I feel about his dough, I'd have nothing to say to him. It would be like talking to the CEO of Dominos.

Offline othafa9

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #112 on: May 23, 2012, 01:45:39 PM »
"The best pizza is the one you like" -Chris Bianco

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #113 on: May 23, 2012, 02:36:07 PM »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #114 on: May 23, 2012, 02:57:14 PM »
I took that as meaning that drastically short ferments can be superior.

Ok, I'll be the lone wolf on this.  I am no authority on pizza much less NP pizza, but in my trials, for me...the best textured NP pies that I have made have been sub 8hr pies.  As far as flavor differences, when using cake yeast or commercial yeast between a short and long ferment, it is minimal. 

The reason so many NY quick doughs taste so bland is because of 1) low salt levels 2) overmixing and oxidation of the dough. 

If you avoid overmixing the dough, a quick dough taste nearly the same to me as an extended fermented dough.  The difference for me is minor. 

The flavor differences created by sauce, cheese, and toppings will always be much more than short or long ferments when using CY or commercial yeast, and in some cases even with SD starters. 

When several of the members here ate at Roberta's on the recent pizza tour, I polled them to see if they could taste the SD starter in the crust.  I could not get one person to definitively say the crust was made with a starter except myself.  I went and talk to the guys baking the pies and confirmed the use of a SD starter.  It was mild, but there.

I can promise you that 99% of the general public can not taste the difference between a short and long fermented dough.  I can also confidently say that the majority of the members here can not either.  They probably can in their own pies that they have eaten 100 times, but not on a first tasting at a restaurant. 

Hell, our top members weren't even sure if they could taste sourdough or not. 

Just My 2cents,

Chau

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #115 on: May 23, 2012, 03:20:30 PM »
I figured you were going to chime in, Chau.  ;D

Sorry, but I'm going to have to play the elevation card. Water activity is increased at higher elevations, and, enzyme activity is directly relational to water activity, so, at higher elevations, enzyme activity (flavor generation) occurs at a  faster rate.

If you know what to look for, it's pretty easy to see enzyme activity in the crumb and even easier to taste it.  One bite of Totonno's and we all knew. White crumbs are almost always tasteless.  Take a look at Difara's:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10777.msg96305.html#msg96305

This isn't overmixing. While overmixing does oxidize dough, I think it's very rare to find a pizzeria oxidizing their dough so much that it looks like white underfermented dough.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 03:36:03 PM by scott123 »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #116 on: May 23, 2012, 03:44:27 PM »
Well Scott, we will just have to disagree.  My favorite NP pie that I have made texture wise, was done in 4 hours with IDY.  Yes it was at high elevations and it was a high hydration dough (69% I believe), but increase enzyme activity isn't going to make that much of a difference in a 4 hour time period.  

I would also say high salt levels around 3% are going to make pinpointing the difference much harder.  

Here is a challenge to anyone interested.  You come to visit me and I will make you pizza.  I will make 6 pies, either 3 of each or 2 and 4, short ferment vs extended.   We will put various toppings and sauces on the pies.  If anyone can guess at least 5 of the 6 correct, I will reimburse you the cost of your plane ticket.  

Even if you don't win the challenge, you will get free pizza, and room and board during your stay.  It's a win win situation.  ;D

I don't know Scott, I say overmixing and low salt levels are to blame.  Of the hundreds of same day doughs (10 hr or less) that I have made, none have tasted as bland and flavorless as that Totonno's crust and the many that I find locally.  The only times I have had issues with blandness in my bread doughs is when I was experimenting with 1% salt levels.  At 3%, it's gonna be a tough call.   Anyone up for the challenge?

Chau
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 07:08:02 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline johnnydoubleu

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #117 on: May 23, 2012, 03:57:44 PM »
Chau, Scott, I find myself mostly agreeing with what both of you have said. :)

The dough is ripe when it is ripe.

"Chau's Same-Day Dough Challenge" is such a fantastic and diabolical idea! ;D

Chau, do you feel that the older doughs were over-proofed/over-fermented? What made them less desirable?

What flour was in the 4 hour dough you mentioned? How much IDY? How hot is is where you are? All at what temp?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 04:11:51 PM by johnnydoubleu »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #118 on: May 23, 2012, 04:42:02 PM »
Johnny, I'll be glad to give more details.

Here is the pie I was talking about.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17003.msg169879.html#msg169879

Crumb shot and video...

No definitely not over proofed or overripe with my long fermented doughs.  The hardest thing about making proper pizza is the crumb texture. If you get the balance right, you get light, fluffy, cloud like.  If you get it wrong, you get the opposite.  Long ferments are tricky because of enzyme activity.  It degrades the gluten structure and messes with the texture.  You have to adjust mixing times, hydration ratios, salt levels, to dial in the proper texture.  You also should employ reballs after a semi lengthy bulk to rebuild the damage gluten.  Long ferments are much harder to do properly than a quick dough.  

For a quick dough like Jay is using, a lengthy bulk is not needed.  It's in the balance of achieving the right crumb texture (gluten strength) not the length of the bulk.

Flour was all caputo, high hydration for my dry climate, hand folds like in Tartine bread, 75f room temp, baked in wfo 900f+.

chau
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 05:19:39 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline johnnydoubleu

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #119 on: May 23, 2012, 05:25:53 PM »
Thanks Chau. How much IDY? When it the timeframe did you ball the dough?