Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx

[Jet_deck]

"Chau's Same-Day Dough Challenge" is such a fantastic and diabolical idea!

 

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks Chau. How much IDY? When it the timeframe did you ball the dough?

Johnny I had meant the dough to be a 6-8 hour dough but b/c of the high hydration of the dough it was fermenting too fast.  IIRC, the yeast amount was 0.6% IDY.  My memory is foggy, but I believe the dough was balled after it had risen around 50%.  The time frame was within those 3 hours I suppose.  So this is equivalent to a long bulk if you are doing a long fermented dough.  And the balls were well proofed like Roberto's dough.  I need to replicate this dough with CY soon.  I haven't played much with it except a few more times since I have been spending most of my efforts doing NY slice.   FWIW, I have also gotten this amazing texture with a 30 hour dough, but again...balancing the kneading, hydration, rebuilding of the strength, is all very tricky.  But it can be done though. 

It may sound totally rediculous but this was the best texture crumb I've enjoyed in a NP pie, but I haven't eaten that many.   You should try it sometime.

Gene, I'm serious about the challenge.  I would love some visitors.   

Chau

[johnnydoubleu]

Chau, I'll take your word for it and the pics and vid are telling as well.

I asked so many questions not because I was incredulous but because I figured I'd give it a whirl. I do believe the conventional wisdom, even at the high level around here, is not the only way to go. One thing is for sure, a young pizza dough should have a lot of spring.

[Jackie Tran]

No worries Johnny.  And yes the spring is from the undamaged gluten matrix and added yeast.  

Though there is an exceeding amount of great info here, not everything that is known about pizza has been discovered IMO.  My belief is that we can always do better, so I keep striving. There is always more to be discovered.  We don't see these results unless we purposefully or accidental find them out.  That takes a lot of patience and experimentation of the polar opposites of the spectrum to see the differences and then dial it in until you get what you want.  To me, there is not a better or worse here, just a preference and my preference right now is for a young dough.  

If anyone can do it or wants to show me what is proper NP or isn't, I am all ears and eyes.  I would love to learn since I'm always seeking to improve the crust.  Let's see it.  Crumb shots, videos, discussion of methods and methodology works for me.   Not pizza theory, but pizza evidence.  If I had more free time, I would love to have the opportunity to go volunteer at Jay's place.  I'm sure there is a lot to learn.

[scott123]

Chau, let me get something straight here. Are you telling me that every single member here (including yourself) and every single domestic Neapolitan pizzeria owner is doing extended ferments, not because any of us has thoroughly tested extended ferments and found them to be superior, but because someone, a long time ago, said 'extended ferments are better,'  and all of us just blindly jumped on board?  That we're all involved in this mass hallucination whereby we think we can taste the difference between emergency and extended ferments, but we're all fooling ourselves and really can't? That we're all somehow sacrificing texture for a flavor boost mirage?

Is that what you're saying? 

I know that being a maverick is important to you, but you're asking a question that's been answered and tested thousands of times, both within these walls and in all of our mouths.  Even Reinhart, who's clueless about pizza, understands the innate flavor superiority of the extended ferment in breadmaking.

While I agree that quite a few pizza eating customers probably can't tell the difference (DiFara's sells a LOT of pizza), as you get into making dough yourself, especially extremely long ferments, discerning enzyme generated flavors is effortless.  Everyone's pizzamaking journey has included, at some point, an extreme ferment- more than 4 days. Once you do a couple of these, the flavor compounds from the enzyme activity become so strong that when you dial back the ferments to more moderate time frames, it's far easier to detect the flavor compounds that the enzymes are buying you.

Enzymes break proteins down into amino acids.  Extended ferments are the chemical equivalent of adding a little soy sauce to your dough.  Everyone, if they know what to look for, can detect this umami. Umami is one of the most discernible flavors on the planet. You can see the darker color and you can taste it, and, for those that are aware of it, they love it, across the board.  I don't have to fly to New Mexico to take your challenge, just post a photo of your emergency and extended crumbs and I'll pick out the extended one based on color.

[Jackie Tran]

Come on Scott...Are you serious right now?  Okay, I'll give you the maverick bit   but you are killing me with the extended fermentation bit.

I am well aware of it's use, purpose, and popularity.  I am in no way saying that there is some form of mass halucination concerning long ferments and that members are blindly following suit.  

What I am saying is that dough textures are intimately tied to length of fermentation and longer can be better but not necessarily.  Or it's better up to a point.  It doesn't go on infinitely.  And that different ppl have different preferences for textures and flavors.  What you or I deem as better isn't better for everyone.  So in the end it is purely subjective.  

I am not saying a 3 hour dough is always better than a longer ferment.  Far from that.  All I am saying is that in my NP experiments, I have noted on more than several occassions that my best textured doughs were all sub 8 hours.  But that may speak more to my lack of experience with the style.

For NY style I do prefer to CF for around 24-48 hours, but usually not much longer.   But then again, I haven't done a head to head comparison against a 10h NY dough.   I just barely perfected my NY dough, but that test is coming soon. Same if I make a SD loaf.  There is a window of optimal results for me.  If I use 20% SD to make a loaf, around 12 hours of CF is ideal for me.  Beyond that and as it reaches 18 hours, the flavors become too strong and the textures become too spongy, too heavy for me b/c of the gluten breakdown.

NOw if you are using CY, or commercial yeast, the dough no matter what flour you use, will tolerate much longer ferments and even overfermentation without suffering too much.  You only have enzyme activity to deal with and not acids like you would from a starter.  

But seriously, you guys argue about differences between a one day and 4 day CF, taste differences between ADY, IDY, and CY, and the reality is the differences are not much at all.   Or at least that is my subjective opinion of the matter.  I'm not trying to sway you here, just giving you a different perspective.  Not right or wrong, just different.

Scott I'm not talking about the way the crumbs look.  The way pizza look is only one aspect.  You can't ignore texture, flavor, flavors from sauce cheese, toppings, etc.  It's the whole experience.  Too many important variables to consider besides the difference of a 9 hour dough and an 18 hour dough.  That 9 hours is not going to buy you much difference, it won't.  It's like arguing NY water vs bottle water, sea salt vs table salt, ADY vs IDY.  Yes there are differences there but it's not much.  

Next time I bake I will do a 8 hour dough vs and 18 hour dough and post the difference to see if you can pick them out,  but it's a 50/50 chance so not as challenging as you coming over to NM and choosing between 6 pies.

Chau

[othafa9]

 

[johnnydoubleu]

I have been mostly been fiddling with sourdough bread and not pizza for some time now so I wanted to refresh my memory of what a straight quick dough tastes and performs like in my hands. I have only made one other baker's yeast/non-sourdough dough in the last year or so and that was for a Sicilian pie (that I made at my parents' for my family, using only what was on hand) that I fermented with ADY for 16 hours (at 67F) or so and it also had some white wine in it so it was by no means a bland dough.

The following pic (taken with a noisy, lo-fi 3GS in bad light) is of a straight dough made using KA Organic AP, no added sugars or oils and 2.5% salt. For this experiment I made just one 300 gram dough ball using <1g of IDY (about a 1/4 teaspoon). I was quite pleased with the crust crumb and the oven spring but the flavor was indeed very bland (and not even the tiniest bit yeasty, which wouldn't have been ideal but at least it would have had some flavor). I feel confident that in most cases I would be able to differentiate between a dough like this and one that had been fermented considerably longer (in a pizza that was simply topped). There was an unmistakable pull/chew to the finished pizza that I immediately noticed (and don't prefer) that indicated that the dough wasn't as "digested" as it would be if there was more enzymatic action going on. It is a preference. It would be hard for many to tell. I noticed though, no question.

I used my (super crappy for Nearlypolitan pizza making compared to most other oven types) gas drawer broiler and cast iron pizza pan to bake the pie (with no hacks and about a 30 min warmup time for the broiler).

[TXCraig1]

I had the pleasure of having lunch at Cane Rosso today. We had the Regina Margherita, Gus, and Paulie Gee. Overall, I would rate the pies as incredible. The Regina is easily in my top-5 pies of all time. If it had any basil on it (seriously Jay, 1 leaf  ), It would have been a legitimate contender for the top spot (excluding The Garage, of course  ).

The sauce was great, beautifully balanced, fresh, flavorful, and lively. It is that "playful" sort of sauce I just love; very much like my own. The buffalo mozz was very nice - perhaps a tad too much cheese for my taste, but that is hardly something to complain about.

I timed a couple pies at around 75-80 seconds. I didn't time my pies, but they were perfectly baked - very nice leoparding and a perfectly charred undercarrage. The sauce was still wet - just the way I like it.

All of this is great, but in the end, it was the crust that really made the pie as you would expect. It was one of the softest and most tender I've ever had the pleasure of eating. I would not hesitate to call it sublime, and I can count on one hand, with a digit or two to spare, how many crusts I would say that about.  While perhaps not the most flavorful, it was far from bland. I was almost in a trance slowly savoring the bones as the bites melted in my mouth.

If I had any nit to pick with Cane Rosso other than the criminally skimpy amount of basil on the Margherita, it would be the chiles on the Paulie Gee. The menu said they were Calabrian. I don’t know what they were, but they were not Calabrian chiles as I know them. The pie would have been an order of magnitude better with proper Calabrian chiles.

Bottom line – I would highly recommend that anyone traveling anywhere near Dallas give Cane Rosso a try.

Here are a couple pics of the Regina Margherita. Sorry for the crappy quality Blackberry pics. I forgot my camera. The pics of the other pies came out terrible.

CL

[johnnydoubleu]

So Craig, you are on record now stating that you particularly liked the Cane Rosso crust (which is, in comparison to the doughs that proliferate on the forum, a "quick dough")?

The only reason I think it is important is that people have it in their minds that the only way to skin the cat is to make a dough that has been cold fermented for days. Clearly, great dough and crust can be arrived at other ways.

[scott123]

Craig, it sounds to me that, texturally, the crust was on par with the Garage (or possibly better?), but how did the flavor compare to the Garage? I know that this would be comparing IDY to sourdough, but is it possible that Cane could benefit from a little more fermentation derived flavor?

[TXCraig1]

So Craig, you are on record now stating that you particularly liked the Cane Rosso crust (which is, in comparison to the doughs that proliferate on the forum, a "quick dough")?

The only reason I think it is important is that people have it in their minds that the only way to skin the cat is to make a dough that has been cold fermented for days. Clearly, great dough and crust can be arrived at other ways.

Yes, I liked it very much. I wasn't blowing smoke when I said it was one of the best I've tasted. I'm not looking for Jay to hire me or anything. If it was not good, I would have said so or said nothing.

Do I come across as a one way to skin the cat guy? I probably do, but it’s not my intention. I don’t remember ever saying that dough had to be SD or fermented for two days to be great, rather I’ve just shared how I do it which happens to be that way.

It’s like wine; I’ve had bottles I loved made with not only different grapes, but also wholly different methods. They may be quite different, but that doesn’t mean I can’t love them both and for different reasons.

Jay’s crust is much like this. It is very different from mine. Do I prefer mine? Yes. Will I eat Jay’s again? Every chance I get.

[scott123]

Craig, I'm the one way cat skinner that John is referring to. I'm having T-shirts made, possibly even hats 

[dellavecchia]

Great write up Craig. Do you know what the fermentation time is on these pies?

John

[johnnydoubleu]

Craig, I'm the one way cat skinner that John is referring to. I'm having T-shirts made, possibly even hats 

[TXCraig1]

Craig, it sounds to me that, texturally, the crust was on par with the Garage (or possibly better?), but how did the flavor compare to the Garage? I know that this would be comparing IDY to sourdough, but is it possible that Cane could benefit from a little more fermentation derived flavor?

It’s different – in both flavor and texture. His is tenderer. Mine is more flavorful. It’s a first growth (left bank) Bordeaux vs. a cult cab. Which is better? Who cares, right? I’m drinking both!

I’m not one who believes there is a lot of flavor to be gained from extended fermentation with baker’s yeast. It’s not like SD, IMHO.  Would his pie benefit from additional fermentation? I don’t know, but I have to believe that Jay does things the way he does because he believes it makes the best pizza. Who am I to question that? If I ran a place, that’ what I would do regardless of what anyone else thought.

Scott, you know how passionate I am about NP, and I’m telling you that whatever Jay is doing, he’s doing it right and Cane Rosso is a credit to NP pizza. To be completely honest with you, when I get to Naples, I expect the pizza to taste more like Jay’s than mine.

Jay’s pizza is almost exactly how I’ve imagined pizza in Naples feeling and tasting. Mine is almost exactly how I like it. Do I prefer my pizza, yes. If the Garage was next door to Cane Rosso would I eat there? Yes, every week. I’m glad we don’t all make NP that tastes the same.

Again with a wine analogy, I almost never order or open the same bottle of wine twice in the same meal. I want to try as many wines as possible. I love the suspense and surprise. It’s the same thing when I go to a NP place. What fun would it be if we all made dough the exact same way? Yes, sometimes there are disappointments, and you wish you had opened another bottle of the first wine or gone to a different pizza place instead, but other times there are wonderful surprises and you never look back. Cane Rosso was one of those.

[TXCraig1]

Great write up Craig. Do you know what the fermentation time is on these pies?

John

No, I don't. I didn't get a chance to meet Jay when I was there. Going solely on previous comments in this thread, I'm guessing it's not particularly long.

CL

[scott123]

Great write up Craig. Do you know what the fermentation time is on these pies?

John

1 hour bulk/8-12 balled

[scott123]

It’s different – in both flavor and texture. His is tenderer. Mine is more flavorful. It’s a first growth (left bank) Bordeaux vs. a cult cab. Which is better? Who cares, right? I’m drinking both!

Craig, is pizza crust really analogous to wine?  Wine chemistry has an almost infinite number of variables, whereas dough chemistry is pretty straightforward.  Dough + time = additional byproducts = additional flavor.  Unlike two different wines that can have an incredibly varied number of notes, a young dough has the same compounds as an older one, just less. I have spent literally years trying to create multi-day byproduct quantities in a same day dough- and, so far, I haven't been able to do it. The chemistry prevents it.

If you want to say that, under certain circumstances, a less flavorful crust can be better than a more flavorful one, then that enters into a more subjective area. The fact that every domestic, non-Canne Rosso pizzeria and every member of this forum do longer Neapolitan ferments seems to be clear evidence that the vast majority of people prefer byproducts.

Now, if, on the other hand, you're implying that there's a chance that, as you lengthen the fermentation time (to a day or two), you sacrifice texture, that's a discussion I'm more open to. I would like to test this more, but from the results that I've seen in my own doughs and in others, I pretty firmly believe that any texture you can achieve in a same day, you can achieve in an overnight.  In other words, it's possible for you to have Jay's texture with your flavor- and, in my strong opinion, an organization like the VPN should be teaching/advocating that.

I haven't really talked about it in my reviews of these places, but I think NYC's Neapolitan crusts have a ways to go texturally.  I only made the connection recently when discussing naan in the cauliflower thread, but I've had 800 deg. 60 second naan that was so puffy and light, it was like eating clouds.  Texturally it was a transcendental experience.  I never, in a million years, thought that bread could taste like that. If Dino has managed to capture this extreme puffiness, I salute him.  Roberto, Mathieu and Giulio could definitely learn a thing or two from him on the texture side.

As far as flavor goes, though, that cat is only getting skinned one way.  Can I mark you down for a hat?  

[TXCraig1]

Craig, is pizza crust really analogous to wine?  Wine chemistry has an almost infinite number of variables, whereas dough chemistry is pretty straightforward.  Dough + time = additional byproducts = additional flavor.  Unlike two different wines that can have an incredibly varied number of notes, a young dough has the same compounds as an older one, just less. I have spent literally years trying to create multi-day byproduct quantities in a same day dough- and, so far, I haven't been able to do it. The chemistry prevents it.

The scope of my analogy is simply that you can take the same ingredients and process them in different ways and come up with two very different products that are both wonderful.

If you want to say that, under certain circumstances, a less flavorful crust can be better than a more flavorful one, then that enters into a more subjective area. The fact that every domestic, non-Canne Rosso pizzeria and every member of this forum do longer Neapolitan ferments seems to be clear evidence that the vast majority of people prefer byproducts.

Yes, “better” is subjective. I don’t really know how to respond to this. You’re right, a lot of people are doing longer ferments, but Jay’s pie is wonderful nonetheless. I’ve had many of those longer ferments and they are not as good. How does one square that up? As far as subjectivity goes, others may not agree with me which is best. I’ll also repeat my earlier post. Today, I don’t believe that a 24 hour ferment with baker’s yeast will produce a noticeably better baked pie than a 12 hour ferment. I stand to be corrected, but I have not experienced it.

Now, if, on the other hand, you're implying that there's a chance that, as you lengthen the fermentation time (to a day or two), you sacrifice texture, that's a discussion I'm more open to. I would like to test this more, but from the results that I've seen in my own doughs and in others, I pretty firmly believe that any texture you can achieve in a same day, you can achieve in an overnight.  In other words, it's possible for you to have Jay's texture with your flavor- and, in my strong opinion, an organization like the VPN should be teaching/advocating that.

That crossed my mind, but I can’t speak to it from experience. I believe mine is tougher in large part due to a longer fermentation with SD – and let’s be clear – my pies are not tough by any stretch of the imagination. They are different than Jay’s. My crumb is more open and more defined. My dough also seems meaningfully easier to open which seems counter intuitive.  I really don’t know how to better explain the difference. You’d have to try them both to understand – or try Jay’s and compare it to your memory of Motorino which is more similar to mine.

I haven't really talked about it in my reviews of these places, but I think NYC's Neapolitan crusts have a ways to go texturally.  I only made the connection recently when discussing naan in the cauliflower thread, but I've had 800 deg. 60 second naan that was so puffy and light, it was like eating clouds.  Texturally it was a transcendental experience.  I never, in a million years, thought that bread could taste like that. If Dino has managed to capture this extreme puffiness, I salute him.  Roberto, Mathieu and Giulio could definitely learn a thing or two from him on the texture side.

It’s not a matter of puffiness. In fact, I would argue that mine are texturally better than Jay’s. What Jay has captured that I have only seen signs of in a couple other places (A16 comes to mind) is the softness and tenderness. It was so wonderful I found myself just pulling on it and tearing it in amazement, and the feel in the mouth defies description. I’d like to know what his HR is. I’ve been working with 61-62%, and that might be part of it. I’d guess he is higher. I don’t know what flour he uses either.

As far as flavor goes, though, that cat is only getting skin one way.  Can I mark you down for a hat? 

So long as that cat skin is made of SD…