Author Topic: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx  (Read 31612 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #125 on: May 24, 2012, 12:10:37 AM »
Come on Scott...Are you serious right now?  Okay, I'll give you the maverick bit  ;D but you are killing me with the extended fermentation bit.

I am well aware of it's use, purpose, and popularity.  I am in no way saying that there is some form of mass halucination concerning long ferments and that members are blindly following suit.  

What I am saying is that dough textures are intimately tied to length of fermentation and longer can be better but not necessarily.  Or it's better up to a point.  It doesn't go on infinitely.  And that different ppl have different preferences for textures and flavors.  What you or I deem as better isn't better for everyone.  So in the end it is purely subjective.  

I am not saying a 3 hour dough is always better than a longer ferment.  Far from that.  All I am saying is that in my NP experiments, I have noted on more than several occassions that my best textured doughs were all sub 8 hours.  But that may speak more to my lack of experience with the style.

For NY style I do prefer to CF for around 24-48 hours, but usually not much longer.   But then again, I haven't done a head to head comparison against a 10h NY dough.   I just barely perfected my NY dough, but that test is coming soon. Same if I make a SD loaf.  There is a window of optimal results for me.  If I use 20% SD to make a loaf, around 12 hours of CF is ideal for me.  Beyond that and as it reaches 18 hours, the flavors become too strong and the textures become too spongy, too heavy for me b/c of the gluten breakdown.

NOw if you are using CY, or commercial yeast, the dough no matter what flour you use, will tolerate much longer ferments and even overfermentation without suffering too much.  You only have enzyme activity to deal with and not acids like you would from a starter.  

But seriously, you guys argue about differences between a one day and 4 day CF, taste differences between ADY, IDY, and CY, and the reality is the differences are not much at all.   Or at least that is my subjective opinion of the matter.  I'm not trying to sway you here, just giving you a different perspective.  Not right or wrong, just different.

Scott I'm not talking about the way the crumbs look.  The way pizza look is only one aspect.  You can't ignore texture, flavor, flavors from sauce cheese, toppings, etc.  It's the whole experience.  Too many important variables to consider besides the difference of a 9 hour dough and an 18 hour dough.  That 9 hours is not going to buy you much difference, it won't.  It's like arguing NY water vs bottle water, sea salt vs table salt, ADY vs IDY.  Yes there are differences there but it's not much.  

Next time I bake I will do a 8 hour dough vs and 18 hour dough and post the difference to see if you can pick them out,  but it's a 50/50 chance so not as challenging as you coming over to NM and choosing between 6 pies.

Chau
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 12:39:02 AM by Jackie Tran »


Offline othafa9

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #126 on: May 24, 2012, 01:15:20 AM »
 :pizza:
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 09:53:23 AM by othafa9 »

Offline johnnydoubleu

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #127 on: May 25, 2012, 01:27:05 PM »
I have been mostly been fiddling with sourdough bread and not pizza for some time now so I wanted to refresh my memory of what a straight quick dough tastes and performs like in my hands. I have only made one other baker's yeast/non-sourdough dough in the last year or so and that was for a Sicilian pie (that I made at my parents' for my family, using only what was on hand) that I fermented with ADY for 16 hours (at 67F) or so and it also had some white wine in it so it was by no means a bland dough.

The following pic (taken with a noisy, lo-fi 3GS in bad light) is of a straight dough made using KA Organic AP, no added sugars or oils and 2.5% salt. For this experiment I made just one 300 gram dough ball using <1g of IDY (about a 1/4 teaspoon). I was quite pleased with the crust crumb and the oven spring but the flavor was indeed very bland (and not even the tiniest bit yeasty, which wouldn't have been ideal but at least it would have had some flavor). I feel confident that in most cases I would be able to differentiate between a dough like this and one that had been fermented considerably longer (in a pizza that was simply topped). There was an unmistakable pull/chew to the finished pizza that I immediately noticed (and don't prefer) that indicated that the dough wasn't as "digested" as it would be if there was more enzymatic action going on. It is a preference. It would be hard for many to tell. I noticed though, no question.

I used my (super crappy for Nearlypolitan pizza making compared to most other oven types) gas drawer broiler and cast iron pizza pan to bake the pie (with no hacks and about a 30 min warmup time for the broiler).
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 06:24:30 PM by johnnydoubleu »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #128 on: July 19, 2012, 01:28:56 AM »
I had the pleasure of having lunch at Cane Rosso today. We had the Regina Margherita, Gus, and Paulie Gee. Overall, I would rate the pies as incredible. The Regina is easily in my top-5 pies of all time. If it had any basil on it (seriously Jay, 1 leaf  ???), It would have been a legitimate contender for the top spot (excluding The Garage, of course  :-D).

The sauce was great, beautifully balanced, fresh, flavorful, and lively. It is that "playful" sort of sauce I just love; very much like my own. The buffalo mozz was very nice - perhaps a tad too much cheese for my taste, but that is hardly something to complain about.

I timed a couple pies at around 75-80 seconds. I didn't time my pies, but they were perfectly baked - very nice leoparding and a perfectly charred undercarrage. The sauce was still wet - just the way I like it.

All of this is great, but in the end, it was the crust that really made the pie as you would expect. It was one of the softest and most tender I've ever had the pleasure of eating. I would not hesitate to call it sublime, and I can count on one hand, with a digit or two to spare, how many crusts I would say that about.  While perhaps not the most flavorful, it was far from bland. I was almost in a trance slowly savoring the bones as the bites melted in my mouth.

If I had any nit to pick with Cane Rosso other than the criminally skimpy amount of basil on the Margherita, it would be the chiles on the Paulie Gee. The menu said they were Calabrian. I donít know what they were, but they were not Calabrian chiles as I know them. The pie would have been an order of magnitude better with proper Calabrian chiles.

Bottom line Ė I would highly recommend that anyone traveling anywhere near Dallas give Cane Rosso a try.

Here are a couple pics of the Regina Margherita. Sorry for the crappy quality Blackberry pics. I forgot my camera. The pics of the other pies came out terrible.

CL
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Offline johnnydoubleu

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #129 on: July 19, 2012, 11:43:15 AM »
So Craig, you are on record now stating that you particularly liked the Cane Rosso crust (which is, in comparison to the doughs that proliferate on the forum, a "quick dough")?

The only reason I think it is important is that people have it in their minds that the only way to skin the cat is to make a dough that has been cold fermented for days. Clearly, great dough and crust can be arrived at other ways.

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #130 on: July 19, 2012, 12:36:06 PM »
Craig, it sounds to me that, texturally, the crust was on par with the Garage (or possibly better?), but how did the flavor compare to the Garage? I know that this would be comparing IDY to sourdough, but is it possible that Cane could benefit from a little more fermentation derived flavor?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #131 on: July 19, 2012, 03:01:10 PM »
So Craig, you are on record now stating that you particularly liked the Cane Rosso crust (which is, in comparison to the doughs that proliferate on the forum, a "quick dough")?

The only reason I think it is important is that people have it in their minds that the only way to skin the cat is to make a dough that has been cold fermented for days. Clearly, great dough and crust can be arrived at other ways.

Yes, I liked it very much. I wasn't blowing smoke when I said it was one of the best I've tasted. I'm not looking for Jay to hire me or anything. If it was not good, I would have said so or said nothing.

Do I come across as a one way to skin the cat guy? I probably do, but itís not my intention. I donít remember ever saying that dough had to be SD or fermented for two days to be great, rather Iíve just shared how I do it which happens to be that way.

Itís like wine; Iíve had bottles I loved made with not only different grapes, but also wholly different methods. They may be quite different, but that doesnít mean I canít love them both and for different reasons.

Jayís crust is much like this. It is very different from mine. Do I prefer mine? Yes. Will I eat Jayís again? Every chance I get.
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scott123

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #132 on: July 19, 2012, 03:10:27 PM »
Craig, I'm the one way cat skinner that John is referring to. I'm having T-shirts made, possibly even hats  ;D

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #133 on: July 19, 2012, 03:22:37 PM »
Great write up Craig. Do you know what the fermentation time is on these pies?

John


Offline johnnydoubleu

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #134 on: July 19, 2012, 03:33:39 PM »
Craig, I'm the one way cat skinner that John is referring to. I'm having T-shirts made, possibly even hats  ;D
;D

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #135 on: July 19, 2012, 03:37:35 PM »
Craig, it sounds to me that, texturally, the crust was on par with the Garage (or possibly better?), but how did the flavor compare to the Garage? I know that this would be comparing IDY to sourdough, but is it possible that Cane could benefit from a little more fermentation derived flavor?

Itís different Ė in both flavor and texture. His is tenderer. Mine is more flavorful. Itís a first growth (left bank) Bordeaux vs. a cult cab. Which is better? Who cares, right? Iím drinking both!

Iím not one who believes there is a lot of flavor to be gained from extended fermentation with bakerís yeast. Itís not like SD, IMHO.  Would his pie benefit from additional fermentation? I donít know, but I have to believe that Jay does things the way he does because he believes it makes the best pizza. Who am I to question that? If I ran a place, thatí what I would do regardless of what anyone else thought.

Scott, you know how passionate I am about NP, and Iím telling you that whatever Jay is doing, heís doing it right and Cane Rosso is a credit to NP pizza. To be completely honest with you, when I get to Naples, I expect the pizza to taste more like Jayís than mine.

Jayís pizza is almost exactly how Iíve imagined pizza in Naples feeling and tasting. Mine is almost exactly how I like it. Do I prefer my pizza, yes. If the Garage was next door to Cane Rosso would I eat there? Yes, every week. Iím glad we donít all make NP that tastes the same.

Again with a wine analogy, I almost never order or open the same bottle of wine twice in the same meal. I want to try as many wines as possible. I love the suspense and surprise. Itís the same thing when I go to a NP place. What fun would it be if we all made dough the exact same way? Yes, sometimes there are disappointments, and you wish you had opened another bottle of the first wine or gone to a different pizza place instead, but other times there are wonderful surprises and you never look back. Cane Rosso was one of those.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #136 on: July 19, 2012, 03:40:54 PM »
Great write up Craig. Do you know what the fermentation time is on these pies?

John

No, I don't. I didn't get a chance to meet Jay when I was there. Going solely on previous comments in this thread, I'm guessing it's not particularly long.

CL
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scott123

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #137 on: July 19, 2012, 04:06:21 PM »
Great write up Craig. Do you know what the fermentation time is on these pies?

John

1 hour bulk/8-12 balled

scott123

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #138 on: July 19, 2012, 05:23:37 PM »
Itís different Ė in both flavor and texture. His is tenderer. Mine is more flavorful. Itís a first growth (left bank) Bordeaux vs. a cult cab. Which is better? Who cares, right? Iím drinking both!

Craig, is pizza crust really analogous to wine?  Wine chemistry has an almost infinite number of variables, whereas dough chemistry is pretty straightforward.  Dough + time = additional byproducts = additional flavor.  Unlike two different wines that can have an incredibly varied number of notes, a young dough has the same compounds as an older one, just less. I have spent literally years trying to create multi-day byproduct quantities in a same day dough- and, so far, I haven't been able to do it. The chemistry prevents it.

If you want to say that, under certain circumstances, a less flavorful crust can be better than a more flavorful one, then that enters into a more subjective area. The fact that every domestic, non-Canne Rosso pizzeria and every member of this forum do longer Neapolitan ferments seems to be clear evidence that the vast majority of people prefer byproducts.

Now, if, on the other hand, you're implying that there's a chance that, as you lengthen the fermentation time (to a day or two), you sacrifice texture, that's a discussion I'm more open to. I would like to test this more, but from the results that I've seen in my own doughs and in others, I pretty firmly believe that any texture you can achieve in a same day, you can achieve in an overnight.  In other words, it's possible for you to have Jay's texture with your flavor- and, in my strong opinion, an organization like the VPN should be teaching/advocating that.

I haven't really talked about it in my reviews of these places, but I think NYC's Neapolitan crusts have a ways to go texturally.  I only made the connection recently when discussing naan in the cauliflower thread, but I've had 800 deg. 60 second naan that was so puffy and light, it was like eating clouds.  Texturally it was a transcendental experience.  I never, in a million years, thought that bread could taste like that. If Dino has managed to capture this extreme puffiness, I salute him.  Roberto, Mathieu and Giulio could definitely learn a thing or two from him on the texture side.

As far as flavor goes, though, that cat is only getting skinned one way.  Can I mark you down for a hat?  ;D
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 05:54:09 PM by scott123 »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #139 on: July 19, 2012, 05:58:48 PM »
Craig, is pizza crust really analogous to wine?  Wine chemistry has an almost infinite number of variables, whereas dough chemistry is pretty straightforward.  Dough + time = additional byproducts = additional flavor.  Unlike two different wines that can have an incredibly varied number of notes, a young dough has the same compounds as an older one, just less. I have spent literally years trying to create multi-day byproduct quantities in a same day dough- and, so far, I haven't been able to do it. The chemistry prevents it.

The scope of my analogy is simply that you can take the same ingredients and process them in different ways and come up with two very different products that are both wonderful.

Quote
If you want to say that, under certain circumstances, a less flavorful crust can be better than a more flavorful one, then that enters into a more subjective area. The fact that every domestic, non-Canne Rosso pizzeria and every member of this forum do longer Neapolitan ferments seems to be clear evidence that the vast majority of people prefer byproducts.

Yes, ďbetterĒ is subjective. I donít really know how to respond to this. Youíre right, a lot of people are doing longer ferments, but Jayís pie is wonderful nonetheless. Iíve had many of those longer ferments and they are not as good. How does one square that up? As far as subjectivity goes, others may not agree with me which is best. Iíll also repeat my earlier post. Today, I donít believe that a 24 hour ferment with bakerís yeast will produce a noticeably better baked pie than a 12 hour ferment. I stand to be corrected, but I have not experienced it.

Quote
Now, if, on the other hand, you're implying that there's a chance that, as you lengthen the fermentation time (to a day or two), you sacrifice texture, that's a discussion I'm more open to. I would like to test this more, but from the results that I've seen in my own doughs and in others, I pretty firmly believe that any texture you can achieve in a same day, you can achieve in an overnight.  In other words, it's possible for you to have Jay's texture with your flavor- and, in my strong opinion, an organization like the VPN should be teaching/advocating that.

That crossed my mind, but I canít speak to it from experience. I believe mine is tougher in large part due to a longer fermentation with SD Ė and letís be clear Ė my pies are not tough by any stretch of the imagination. They are different than Jayís. My crumb is more open and more defined. My dough also seems meaningfully easier to open which seems counter intuitive.  I really donít know how to better explain the difference. Youíd have to try them both to understand Ė or try Jayís and compare it to your memory of Motorino which is more similar to mine.

Quote
I haven't really talked about it in my reviews of these places, but I think NYC's Neapolitan crusts have a ways to go texturally.  I only made the connection recently when discussing naan in the cauliflower thread, but I've had 800 deg. 60 second naan that was so puffy and light, it was like eating clouds.  Texturally it was a transcendental experience.  I never, in a million years, thought that bread could taste like that. If Dino has managed to capture this extreme puffiness, I salute him.  Roberto, Mathieu and Giulio could definitely learn a thing or two from him on the texture side.

Itís not a matter of puffiness. In fact, I would argue that mine are texturally better than Jayís. What Jay has captured that I have only seen signs of in a couple other places (A16 comes to mind) is the softness and tenderness. It was so wonderful I found myself just pulling on it and tearing it in amazement, and the feel in the mouth defies description. Iíd like to know what his HR is. Iíve been working with 61-62%, and that might be part of it. Iíd guess he is higher. I donít know what flour he uses either.

Quote
As far as flavor goes, though, that cat is only getting skin one way.  Can I mark you down for a hat?  ;D

So long as that cat skin is made of SDÖ
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scott123

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #140 on: July 19, 2012, 06:54:59 PM »
Today, I donít believe that a 24 hour ferment with bakerís yeast will produce a noticeably better baked pie than a 12 hour ferment.

So, let me get this right, you're telling me that a 24 hour IDY and a 12 IDY are virtually indiscernible, while there's a world of difference between a 24 SD and a 12 SD?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #141 on: July 19, 2012, 06:58:19 PM »
So, let me get this right, you're telling me that a 24 hour IDY and a 12 IDY are virtually indiscernible, while there's a world of difference between a 24 SD and a 12 SD?

Yes - assuming the SD is handled properly - that's what I'm saying.

Should I duck and run for cover now?
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #142 on: July 19, 2012, 08:49:00 PM »
So, let me get this right, you're telling me that a 24 hour IDY and a 12 IDY are virtually indiscernible, while there's a world of difference between a 24 SD and a 12 SD?

This is what I have been saying for a long time now.  This holds true for CY and ADY as well too.  The difference is negligible.  It is even negligible between a 24h vs 36, 48, and beyond.  Most folks including most members will not be able to taste the difference.  Differences in flavor profiles in the sauce, cheese, oils, and toppings amount to a bigger difference in overall taste.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 02:39:00 PM by Jackie Tran »

scott123

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #143 on: July 19, 2012, 09:33:10 PM »
Yes - assuming the SD is handled properly - that's what I'm saying.

I think this is a conversation for another time  :) These are topics that are near and dear to my heart, but, in the context of this thread, it's difficult broaching these subjects without looking like I'm being critical of Jay, which, at this point, is not my intention.  It's going to take me a while to get my head around the idea that a 9-13 hour dough can be so incredibly sublime, and I may have to take another look at the relationship between texture, time and flavor, but with your hearty endorsement, Craig, I have no other choice.

I'm truly glad that your visit was so momentous and that you finally have a stellar Neapolitan pizzeria in your area for when you don't want to fire up the Garage.  This is yet another well deserved feather in Cane Rosso's cap.

Edit: Good to see you Chau! :)  Feel free to gloat.  You've won this battle, but I'm not conceding the war  ;D
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 09:55:37 PM by scott123 »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #144 on: July 19, 2012, 10:35:32 PM »
Me gloat?  Not my style Scott.  ;D  I just report my findings that's all, or I use to anyway.   But just because I think the differences are negligible, it doesn't take anything away from all the members that can appreciate the small difference.  It's great that we can all make what we like. 

From Craig's description of Jay's Crust, it sounds a lot like my kind of crust for NP.  I need to make a trip down to Dallas soon.  Nice write up Craig.  okay im going back into my hole now.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #145 on: July 19, 2012, 10:36:17 PM »
I'm truly glad that your visit was so momentous and that you finally have a stellar Neapolitan pizzeria in your area for when you don't want to fire up the Garage.  

A 4 hour drive probably doesn't qualify as "in my area" even in Texas.  :-D
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Offline BrickStoneOven

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #146 on: July 20, 2012, 12:20:21 PM »
Iíd like to know what his HR is. Iíve been working with 61-62%, and that might be part of it. Iíd guess he is higher. I donít know what flour he uses either.

In the TripleD airing he made dough using Caputo.

Offline communist

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #147 on: July 20, 2012, 03:03:15 PM »
I think this is a conversation for another time  :) Edit: Good to see you Chau! :)  Feel free to gloat.  You've won this battle, but I'm not conceding the war  ;D
  Scott, your dignity and class are impressive!  ( contrary to foolish accusations from your critics in the past )   ;DMark

Offline jjerrier2450

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #148 on: July 21, 2012, 01:09:30 PM »
We've used Caputo Blue, Caputo Red...and if Craig had it this week it was San Felice.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Il Cane Rosso- Dallas, Tx
« Reply #149 on: July 21, 2012, 05:06:00 PM »
and if Craig had it this week it was San Felice.


Interesting - now two of the best Margheritas I've had were made with San Felice.
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