Author Topic: New Try at a preferment Lehmann dough with another milk kefir  (Read 4367 times)

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Offline norma427

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When I was at our local health food store recently, I saw something that caught my eye.  It was Yogourmet Freeze-dried Kefir starter.  It is a commercial product and all that is needed is to use 5grams of starter to 1 quart of milk. The product itself is supposed to be refrigerated, but when making the milk kefir it is left out at room temperature for 24 hrs. and then refrigerated again.  It gives directions on the back of the package how to make the milk kefir.  What I saw in the ingredients listed is what interested me most.  The ingredients listed are: Skim milk powder, abcorbic acid, active lactic bacteria and yeasts. Inside the package there are 6 packets. I donít know, but the sound of the abcorbic acid with active lactic bacteria might be able to create a sourdough pizza.  I am not sure though, whether it will be able to leaven a pizza dough or create a sourdough pizza, like my last attempt at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.0.html               

What I would like to do is make another preferment Lehmann dough, but I am not sure how much of this product to include in the formula or if I should just include this in the poolish.  I think I will need to add some IDY, but am not sure of that either.  I am going to start this milk kefir today and see what happens.  Does anyone know how much they think I should add of this milk kefir starter to my regular Lehmann dough forumla or to a poolish? I am going to try and start a dough tomorrow to bake at market on Tuesday.

Pictures below of front and back of product.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New Try at a preferment Lehmann dough with another milk kefir
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2011, 10:43:17 AM »
When I was thinking about using this Yogourmet to use in another milk kefir dough I had looked on the web to see what kinds of yeast it might contain.  This is what I found.  I also contacted the one number on the web for Yogourmet about if the milk kefir made from the package might ferment pizza dough.  I also emailed them.  I havenít gotten a call-back or an email as of today, but I did find a place that said what ingredients are in the Yogourment. These are the ingredients listed:

Yogourmet Kefir Starter
Make healthy Kefir known to provide B-Vitamins and other healthy nutrients.
A blend of selected strains of dairy cultures, yeast and kefir grains including - L. Caucasicus, L. Casei, S. Lactis, S. Diacetilactis, S. Cremoris, S.Kefir, T. Kefir.
No appliance and no refrigeration needed, milk is incubated at room temperature for approximately 24 hours.
A predigested drink due to the fermentation process. Acceptable for people that are lactose intolerant.
A bubbly effervescent drink with a Ph of about 4, clean acid taste with no bitterness aftertaste. Smooth texture and a slight aroma of yeast and taste of sourcream and buttermilk.
Ingredients: Lactic Bacteria and yeasts (Leuconostoc Cremoris, Lactobacillus Plantarum, Streptococcus Lactis, Streptococcus Cremoris, Streptococcus Diacelillactis) skim milk powder.
Each single box makes 6 individual quarts of yogurt and contains 6 envelopes of 5 grams.
Each single box makes 6 individual quarts of Kefir and contains 6 packets of 5 grams. Total 1.5 gallons.
6 Box pack makes 36 quarts or 9 gallons.
12 Box pack makes 72 quarts or 18 gallons.
Made in Canada.

I did follow the directions yesterday to heat the milk to 180 degrees F and had left a small amount of cold milk to mix 5 grams of freeze dried culture in.  So far today the milk isnít curdled and it still looks the same, but I might mix it into the poolish for a preferment Lehmann dough and also use some of the milk kefir to mix into the final dough Monday, in place of some of the water.  Since I donít really know how to go about this, or if it will work, I might also add a little IDY. 

I was looking at another experiment about Yogurt and growing yeast.

http://www.scienceprojectideas.co.uk/make-yoghurt-grow-yeast.html

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New Try at a preferment Lehmann dough with another milk kefir
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2011, 09:18:51 PM »
I decided this morning to use the milk with the milk kefir cultures in, even if it wasnít curdled.  I mixed the a poolish with replacing all the water with the not curdled milk kefir.  I also mixed another poolish up for a preferment Lehmann dough, (1 dough ball) right after I mixed the milk kefir poolish to see how both poolishes would ferment.  I left both at room temperature for 9 hrs.  It can be seen on the regular poolish and the milk kefir poolish that the milk kefir poolish didnít bubble at all.  I then put the same amount of yeast in the milk kefir poolish.  I havenít decided, but think I am going to replace some of the water in the final dough on Monday with milk kefir if it curdles or not.

Picture of freeze-dried milk kefir mixed with milk before I mixed it with the flour and picture of the both poolishes after 9 hrs.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New Try at a preferment Lehmann dough with another milk kefir
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2011, 09:30:23 AM »
After I added the IDY to the milk kefir poolish the poolish did bubble, but bubbled different than my regular poolish.  The poolish is thicker and the bubbles of fermentation even look different so far.  The milk kefir poolish is now in the refrigerator.  I tasted both the regular poolish and the milk kefir poolish.  The milk kefir poolish doesn have a slight sweet taste and does taste different.  The freeze-dried cultures have fermented the milk this morning.  I tasted the fermented milk kefir made with the freeze-dried cultures and it does have a pleasant taste. It tastes like yogurt without any flavorings. It doesnít have a slightly sour taste like the regular milk kefir grains did when making the milk kefir.  It is now in the refrigerator until Monday.

I am now trying to decide what percent of the water I want to replace in the final mix, with the freeze-dried milk kefir.  I have no idea of what amount to try.  I wish I had my pH meter here at home to see what the pH of the freeze-dried milk kefir is, but I left it at market, from my last experiment.  I donít know what will happen with this dough or final pizza, but I guess I will see on Tuesday.

Pictures of the milk kefir poolish, regular poolish and fermented milk kefir poolish this morning.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New Try at a preferment Lehmann dough with another milk kefir
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2011, 08:38:37 PM »
Just an update on the email and phone call I had to Yogourmet about using the freeze-dried milk kefir in smoothies and also to try and leaven dough.  Since I havenít heard anything more from my food inspectors, I think I am going to have more problems than I can handle with trying to make milk kefir smoothies at market.  This was my last reply from the food inspectors, when I was trying to see if milk kefir smoothies could be approved for market at Reply 269 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg127404.html#msg127404

This is the email I received this evening from Yogourment.  I also had asked if I could sell the packets of freeze dried milk kefir at market, if I am allowed, besides trying to leaven dough with the freeze-dried milk kefir.

Hi Norma,
 
Thank you for your interest in our product.  We have not had any customer use the kefir for that purpose, but that's not to say it cannot be done.  I'm afraid it would be more of a trial and error to see if it can be done.  As for the kefir smoothies, our customers do that all the time.  We can definitely setup a wholesale account for you.
 
Thank you
VMC customer service

I had contacted customer service in New Jersey for Yogourment.

I think I would have a better chance of selling milk kefir smoothies with a product that is approved for sale in the US, like the freeze-dried milk kefir, but I still wouldnít know, until I contact the food inspectors again.  I donít know either how this new milk kefir dough is going to turn out.  This evening the milk kefir poolish is still fermenting differently than the regular preferment Lehmann dough poolish for one dough ball.  I donít know why it is fermenting differently, but it might be because I did scald the milk, before I added the freeze-dried milk kefir that was put into cooler milk.  I would think scalding the milk might have something to do with how this milk kefir poolish is fermenting, but I donít know.  I have tasted the milk kefir poolish again tonight and it does taste much different than the regular poolish.  The milk kefir poolish tastes a lot like yogurt, while the regular poolish tastes like flour. The color of the poolish is also different.  It is a little bit darker than the regular poolish and it still is fermenting differently.  

I still donít know how much milk kefir to replace with the water to try out tomorrow, to see if I can make a different dough and final pizza, but adding more of the milk kefir might give me a different dough, because the milk kefir was scaled.  Does anyone have any idea of how much milk kefir I should try to replace the water?

Pictures of the milk kefir poolish and regular poolish this evening.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New Try at a preferment Lehmann dough with another milk kefir
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2011, 06:20:09 AM »
I made the first milk kefir smoothie last evening from the freeze-dried milk kefir.  I put almost 3/4 cup milk kefir in with frozen sliced peaches, frozen mango chunks, regular milk, and a little bit of vanilla in my blender.  The milk kefir smoothie tasted great.  The milk kefir has now separated a little, since it has been in the refrigerator.

Pictures of what milk kefir looked like last evening and milk kefir smoothie.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New Try at a preferment Lehmann dough with another milk kefir
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2011, 10:57:45 AM »
I made the dough ball this morning and went ďhog wildĒ to see what would happen if I used all milk kefir to replace the water, in the final dough formula for one dough ball.  The dough even felt dry, so used a total of 134 grams of milk kefir in the final mix. 

Picture of milk kefir poolish and amount of milk kefir added to one dough ball.   It can be seen on the picture how much darker the milk kefir poolish is from the milk kefir. One picture of dough ball with all milk kefir, in the poolish and final dough.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New Try at a preferment Lehmann dough with another milk kefir
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2011, 09:28:15 PM »
The milk kefir poolish and dough made with all milk kefir, to replace the water, worked out okay.  The crumb was moist and the rim did get oven spring.  The bottom of the crust has me intrigued. It almost looks like a pie that came out of a WFO.  I will have to work with the milk kefir poolish and milk kefir in the final dough and make some changes.

Pictures below.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New Try at a preferment Lehmann dough with another milk kefir
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2011, 09:31:15 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New Try at a preferment Lehmann dough with another milk kefir
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2011, 09:34:14 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New Try at a preferment Lehmann dough with another milk kefir
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2011, 09:35:52 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: New Try at a preferment Lehmann dough with another milk kefir
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2011, 09:42:20 PM »
Norma,

What are the major differences you have noticed between your kefir crusts and your sourdough crusts?

Craig
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Offline norma427

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Re: New Try at a preferment Lehmann dough with another milk kefir
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2011, 10:42:37 PM »
Norma,

What are the major differences you have noticed between your kefir crusts and your sourdough crusts?

Craig

Craig,

What I have noticed in a milk kefir crust and a sourdough crust, there isnít much difference.  On my other thread, when using milk kefir to solely leaven the dough, it does taste like using the Ischia starter.  This pie was different because I did use IDY to leaven the dough, with milk kefir used instead of any water, in the formula.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New Try at a preferment Lehmann dough with another milk kefir
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2011, 06:06:38 PM »
I did start another milk kefir dough on Friday by making the poolish with all milk kefir and flour.  I wanted to see if maybe the milk kefir that did turn to milk kefir would ferment in the poolish without any added IDY.  I let the poolish out at room temperature for 10 hrs. and it didnít do anything, so I placed it into the oven with the oven light on and left it there overnight.  It still didnít do anything, so I did add IDY. The milk kefir poolish still didnít look like a regular poolish today.  The top still didnít have any bubbles, but the bottom of the poolish did.  I had 144 grams of milk kefir left in the refrigerator so I added the whole amount to the preferment Lehmann dough formula for one dough ball.  The dough was much more sticky than I thought it would have been with the extra milk kefir.  It did finally turn into a dough ball.  I have no idea what hydration the milk kefir final dough ball is.  I will try it out at market tomorrow.  The dough ball does smell like yogurt.

Pictures of milk kefir before I added it to final dough.  Pictures of top and bottom of poolish today. Picture of wet dough ball and picture of dough ball after I stretched and folded numerous times.

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New Try at a preferment Lehmann dough with another milk kefir
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2011, 09:50:31 PM »
I made the pizza out of milk kefir dough ball.  I think the taste of the crust of this milk kefir pizza was interesting.  It almost had a slight sourdough taste in the crust.  The rim was moist.  A customer wanted to taste the experimental pizza before Steve and I tasted it, because he saw it coming out of the oven and wanted a fresh slice.  Steve and I told him it was an experimental pizza and we didnít even try it yet.  The man still wanted a slice, so we gave him a slice.  He really liked the milk kefir pizza.  We told him what was in the dough and he never heard of milk kefir either.  He said we could promote the pie as being more healthy.  I said we do experimental pies here on the forum.  He said I could take a picture of him eating the slice and say he thought this crust was good.  At least this man also thought the milk kefir pizza was good.   :-D

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New Try at a preferment Lehmann dough with another milk kefir
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2011, 09:52:58 PM »
more pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New Try at a preferment Lehmann dough with another milk kefir
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2011, 09:54:52 PM »
end of pictures

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: New Try at a preferment Lehmann dough with another milk kefir
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2011, 06:22:49 PM »
I wanted to update this thread.  I havenít forgotten about trying to make some kind of pizza with the current milk kefir I was trying out.  I was having problems with the Department of Agriculture and them approving milk kefir either in pizza dough or selling smoothies out of milk kefir.  I had written numerous emails and called and never heard back.

I knew they had enacted new food laws in Pa. this year to make food more safe in Pa. and really didnít know what the changes were.  This past Tuesday while I was washing some dishes, I saw what I thought was some customers out of the corner of my eye.  It wasnít a customer but was the manager of food inspection and my new inspector.  They wanted to see my current license to sell food.  I showed them my license and asked what the new food laws were.  They said even farmerís market stands selling meat, other ready to eat food, or anything that had food out of opened containers need to be inspected now and get the same license as I need to sell ready to eat food.  I guess that is why I was never gotten back to about using milk kefir.  I asked the manager about if he had received my emails and calls and he said yes, he did.  He said they were talking about if I was allowed to sell products with the current milk kefir I was testing.  He said he would get back to me this coming Tuesday about my questions.  From what I understood from the conversation, I might be allowed to sell products with this current milk kefir.  He said some products can be sold with milk if they are fermented products. 

If anyone is interested these are the changes to our food code in Pa.

http://www.eatsafepa.com/Act106.aspx and http://www.eatsafepa.com/

Norma
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Offline chickenparm

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Re: New Try at a preferment Lehmann dough with another milk kefir
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2011, 06:48:54 PM »
Very very nice work there Norma.
 :)

Those pies look so light and fluffy.
 :pizza:
-Bill

Offline norma427

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Re: New Try at a preferment Lehmann dough with another milk kefir
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2011, 07:52:18 PM »
Very very nice work there Norma.
 :)

Those pies look so light and fluffy.
 :pizza:

Bill,

Thanks, the pies were light and fluffy, but if I am allowed to try this kind of dough at market I have to work on this formula more.  It wasn't exactly right.  I would have to figure out what to try next.  ::)

Norma
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