taking essen1 advise - experement adding Vital Wheat Gluten to flour

[msheetrit]

the problem is that 75% is the stybel and i have read that what i have bought is imported.  
i bought from them flour that they say is tipo 00 called piveti and it glowed to my stone .
so we will see what will happens in what i did so far the bf batch has shown some fermented sign and the ap doesent shows nothing.
first thing on sun day i am going to buy from stybel wheat vitel protien powder. this way i will be sure that what i have in my hand is very good prudect and i will also know the right number.

i have to learn how to use the Food Product Calculator also.
ok its 6 am here i am going to bed, good night and thank you very much.  but like every memeber who is hoocked first i will try run some numbers on this caculator.

[c0mpl3x]

you need to get the percentage of flour to gluten. before you know your final percentage

if you have 300g of flour at 12% and 50g of gluten at 75% you have 83.33% flour at 12% combined with 16.67% of gluten at 75%

i dont remember the next step though... maybe someone can help?

[Pete-zza]

you need to get the percentage of flour to gluten. before you know your final percentage

if you have 300g of flour at 12% and 50g of gluten at 75% you have 83.33% flour at 12% combined with 16.67% of gluten at 75%

i dont remember the next step though... maybe someone can help?

c0mpl3x,

If you want to see the math behind the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator you can click on the Greek symbol at the top right hand corner of the tool. If you are wondering what the final protein content is for 300 grams of 12% flour and 50 grams of 75% protein vital wheat gluten, from the tool I get 21%. I got this value by entering 75 and 12 in the two boxes below the pull-down menus, entering 350 (300 + 50) into the Mass box, and then playing with the value in the % box until I got 50 in the Mass_A box and 300 in the Mass_B box.

Peter

[msheetrit]

peter coukd you please post screen picture of the caculator with the values added? I cant understand how to use it.

[Essen1]

I'm not Peter but here you go...

[msheetrit]

thank you mike .

so the pizzas were very tasty. the long fermented did his things.
ok after calling the supermarket they told me that the cheap ap flour i have bought is stybel flour! they change the name to supersal so  they are selling it under their label .i also verefy this with stybel.
the ap flour cost third price less then the ap under the label  stybel ap or bf. (1kg=2.5 shekels that abit more then half a dollar, the other one cost  almost 2$) 
as for the pizzas the bf pizza dident had any diferent it the taste result or crumb or crust. so to us with the vitel wheat protien or without it looks the same. the taste oven spring every thing is the same. baking time was 4 minutes.
here is the pie with the bf.

[msheetrit]

as for the all purpose flour...
well this is big news ! by adding the gluten powder to it the outcome was just the same like the bf. my wife couldent tell the diference. me too.
it made the dough to be same. perfect copy of it.
which is cool because now i can buy the stybel ap flour from supersal super martket here with more than third price less and add to it the gluten powder and get the same result like buying the bf. when you buy somthing like 7kg for a week and getting the same flour its realy bugging.
maybe the only thing that comes to my mind is that bf gains 5% more colur to the crust and maybe not, i am not sure on that. but anyway they looks twins of each other.  
here are the photos. take a look.
i made the dough i leted rise after 16 hours reball it without degas it and after anothe 8 hours baked it, toal 24 hours.
john if you reading this thw taste of the long fermented blown me away every time. lightest crumb and crust ever. 
i never got anything close to that with ap. now i am sure that every bakerie in israel use ap flour and add to it gluten powder, otherwise stybel wont be the only that makes bf, bakeries dont buy this. i also checked it with the best bakerie in our city and they told me they use ap flour.
baking time took 6.10 minute but i think thats because when i poped the first pizza in the oven door was closed 80 minutes while the oven was preheating, thats why it took to bake it 4 minutes.  
and after puting pizza and rotating it, and leting it out closing and opening the oven door 6, 7 times it bring the heat to go down litel bit. even if i let the oven heat 30 minutes more to reach it highest temperatore  it wont be like 80 minutes from the begining.  
in the procces of the fermented the bf look more holey than the ap you can see this in the photo below. but the result is just the same from one to another in every aspect.
the ap ball has risen even more.
the test was very cool. and the pizzas was great. so the ap had major diference for good. and the bf dident look like somthing has changed. i will buy the vitel wheat gluten from stybel and will experiment 2 pizzas made from their bf, 1 with the gluten added and one without. maybe i missed somthing.
could someone pleast tell me what is the diference between bf and ap flour?
from what i can see:
theres the protiens matter of the bf has more in it.
the bf is more strong and therefor can handle in opening the ball into skin without affraid it would tare, the ap is more gentel in the hands.
what else ?

another thing i would like to be sure about is:
when i used 250 gram flour and add to it 5 gram vitel wheat gluten,
if i want to add 60% water to i caculate the flour as 250 or 255 in the formula?

[msheetrit]

I'm not Peter but here you go...

now i got it. the last roblik it how many gluten to add in wheight of gram units, and above it is to how much flour?...

[msheetrit]

here they are again on above the other, can you tell the diference between them?
the first is from bread flour and the second is from all purpose flour.
to me they taste the same and they look the same, i i hadent knew better i would think they are from the same flour.  
and the topping: green peper on the naked flame and fresh mushroom fried with litel bit salt and 1tsp olive oil, to hydraite their liquids.

[norma427]

Michael,

I can’t tell the difference in your two pies.  You are doing a great job with your pizza making skills!    Great pictures, too!

Norma

[msheetrit]

thank you very much for your reply norma.   

[Pete-zza]

Michael,

It is important to keep in mind that because of the way vital wheat gluten is made, as described in the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#V, adding vital wheat gluten to say, all-purpose flour, to get the same protein content of bread flour, does not produce a blend that is the same as bread flour. That means that if you have bread flour on hand, you should perhaps use that flour because of its more natural form. Also, not everyone likes vital wheat gluten in their doughs, usually because they don't like the taste of vital wheat gluten in the crust. It doesn't bother me but I can see how someone might not like its taste. I usually use vital wheat gluten to increase the protein content of bread flour to get to the protein content of high-gluten flour (around 14%). Trying to make the jump all the way from all-purpose flour to high-gluten flour is possible technically but I am not certain that such a jump is a good substitute for high-gluten flour.

Peter

[msheetrit]

you are right peter i heated a slice for my self half an hour ago and look at it from all aspect and the taste of the vitel wheat in the crust did bugs me, its like theres somthing that ruin the the taste in the mouth my wife dident noticed it but i did. lets say the whole thing is runing in my mind over and over and make me think about it alot.
you are right about it, making that jump all the way from ap flour is not good idea and using it on bf and to make it to reach higher contects is better, but i want to ask you peter what is the reason that you used it? what is the reason that you need 14% flour?
you are allways one step a head of me peter and the beautiful thing that it is on my path of learning, i was just thinking about it and you wrote it. by the way after i tried your method of using the food proccesor using the blade on pulse mode the dough that are made are stuning, almost with no lost of dough sticking to the handle. thank you peter.
and thank you mike essen1 for all your help.

[Pete-zza]

Michael,

I try to use mostly flours that I can buy at my local supermarket. Unfortunately, high gluten flour is not one of those flours. So, if I want to conduct experiments that require high-gluten flour, like some of my Papa John's and Mack's clone doughs, I use the vital wheat gluten.

Even if you decide not to use vital wheat gluten again, at least you know a lot more about it and how it can be used. Combining pizza making skills and knowledge are an ideal combination in my opinion.

Peter

[msheetrit]

there is no doubt about that peter. i happy i did it and learned from it.
this experement took to places i never thought i will get i read very much about wheat, about how wheather makes the softness and hardness of the wheat and why because of that bread in france oftenly get dried the day after. and lots of more stuff.  all of those will help me complete my qwest in getting better results in bread and pizza.
so to end this experement let say in other words what you have writen about the naturall form of the gluten.

when making wine from grapes alcohole created and yeast and wine, by adding alcohole to grape juice and yeast will not make wine. it will be grape juice and alcohole but not wine, somthing else but not wine.
ok its 2 am here and i am off to sleep. work in 4 hours. 
good night from israel my friends.

[msheetrit]

i just spoke on the phone with the women who deals with the ingridient in the store. she told me this vitel wheat gluten powder has 72% protiens in it.