Author Topic: Buttermilk N.Y. Pizza  (Read 5569 times)

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Offline Ev

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Buttermilk N.Y. Pizza
« on: March 06, 2011, 11:18:12 AM »
This is a continuation of the Cultured Butter tread. I made butter last week and with the resulting buttermilk, made pizza dough. I used my usual Lehmann style formula except I substituted buttermilk for 100% of the formula water. The result was a considerably stiffer dough, presumably because of the milk solids present in the buttermilk(?), causing a lower actual hydration.  I cold fermented the dough for 24 hrs and took a ball to Normas' market stand. That pie can be seen in the butter thread. The next two pies were baked after 3 days and 5 days. I still have one more ball in the fridge at this point. Even now, the dough shows absolutely no sign of over-fermenting. It's still quite stiff and without any obvious gas bubbles that you would expect after five days. After allowing the dough to warm up it becomes very workable but not really very soft. It's actually a good dough to practice my dough tossing skills! :-D
 Anyway, I think the flavor is very good. I can't really say in what way, but it's definitely different from my regular dough.
 At some point, I'm sure I'll try store bought buttermilk, just to see what happens.
3 day dough


Offline Ev

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Re: Buttermilk N.Y. Pizza
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2011, 11:19:52 AM »
Five day dough

Offline norma427

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Re: Buttermilk N.Y. Pizza
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2011, 11:50:59 AM »
This is a continuation of the Cultured Butter tread. I made butter last week and with the resulting buttermilk, made pizza dough. I used my usual Lehmann style formula except I substituted buttermilk for 100% of the formula water. The result was a considerably stiffer dough, presumably because of the milk solids present in the buttermilk(?), causing a lower actual hydration.  I cold fermented the dough for 24 hrs and took a ball to Normas' market stand. That pie can be seen in the butter thread. The next two pies were baked after 3 days and 5 days. I still have one more ball in the fridge at this point. Even now, the dough shows absolutely no sign of over-fermenting. It's still quite stiff and without any obvious gas bubbles that you would expect after five days. After allowing the dough to warm up it becomes very workable but not really very soft. It's actually a good dough to practice my dough tossing skills! :-D
 Anyway, I think the flavor is very good. I can't really say in what way, but it's definitely different from my regular dough.
 At some point, I'm sure I'll try store bought buttermilk, just to see what happens.
3 day dough

Steve,

Both of you pizzas made with all buttermilk to replace the formula water look very tasty!  :) I saw after letting your Lehmann buttermilk dough warm-up at market, how nice that dough became and also how nice that pizza baked up, with a nice a crispy bottom.  I see the same dough formula baked up well in your home oven.  Your crumb looks great!  :)

I wonder why there aren’t any more signs of fermentation after all those days.  It makes be curious what the buttermilk does to dough. 

Nice experiment!

Norma
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Buttermilk N.Y. Pizza
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2011, 11:57:37 AM »
Steve,

According to the nutrition information at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/7544/2, a cultured, reduced-fat store-bought buttermilk is about 88% water. So, you are correct that you reduced the hydration of your dough by swapping out the formula water with the buttermilk you used. If you do some calculations on paper to adjust for the differences between buttermilk and water in the original formulation you started out with, you can use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, which includes buttermilk as one of its options, to come up with a clean set of numbers for the final dough formulation. Of course, you might not want that if you actually like the stiffer, less hydrated dough better.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Buttermilk N.Y. Pizza
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2011, 12:02:41 PM »
Cool Experiment.  Pies look great!  

Chau

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Offline norma427

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Re: Buttermilk N.Y. Pizza
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2011, 02:29:43 PM »
Norma,

See Reply 64 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6674.msg58943/topicseen.html#msg58943, Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8791.msg76201/topicseen.html#msg76201, Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5081.msg43115/topicseen.html#msg43115, and the links referenced therein.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for the links.  I read that thread “MILK in Dough” so many times, but didn’t remember what Tom Lehmann replied.  http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=407&start=15#p21495

And the link for Steve to read.  http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=407&start=15#p21553

I wonder what would happen to Steve’s dough if he heated the buttermilk to scalding. 

Maybe Steve will be the next Otis Gunn!

I see you were curious about buttermilk too.  :)

Norma
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Offline gschwim

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Re: Buttermilk N.Y. Pizza
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2011, 02:58:15 PM »
Buttermilk?  Interesting idea.  May I suggest another method?  How about mixing some real-buttermilk powder (the stuff you get in cartons at the supermarket is not really buttermilk) into the dough?  That would allow you to keep the hydration (amount of liquid) and buttermilk (amount of powder, not liquid), separate and give you much more control over your experiments.  Here, in NYC, Saco Cultured Buttermilk Blend, very popular with bakers, is readily available in supermarkets.

Offline Ev

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Re: Buttermilk N.Y. Pizza
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2011, 04:23:08 PM »
Thanks for the links, guys. Good informative reading, as usual.

gschwim,
 Thanks for suggesting the powder. I have some of that already, which I've only used to make pancakes, so far. I'll be sure to give that a try.

Offline chickenparm

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Re: Buttermilk N.Y. Pizza
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2011, 04:47:45 PM »
Looks Great! Will like to try something like that myself!
 :pizza:
-Bill


Offline spbrez

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Re: Buttermilk N.Y. Pizza
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2011, 06:55:52 PM »
those are amazing looking pep pies.  crust looks great as well.  i am def going to try a couple buttermilk balls when i make my next batch of dough.

Offline norma427

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Re: Buttermilk N.Y. Pizza
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2011, 07:37:16 AM »
Steve brought an eight day cold fermented all buttermilk Lehmann dough to market yesterday to bake.  The dough developed a big bubble on the top of the dough, after Steve removed it from his refrigerator and brought it to market.  He popped the bubble and the buttermilk dough sat out at market over 4 hrs.  

I am posting these pictures because they were on my camera.  The crust of this pizza was really different.  I can’t explain really how it tasted, but it was really good.  There was a slight taste of sourdough, but not in a bad way.  The taste of the crust was complex.  The bottom crust was crisp.  In my opinion, I would rate Steve’s buttermilk crust as very good.  :) There was a nice moistness in the rim.  It can be seen in the first picture that some spotting was in the dough from the long cold ferment.

Pictures below

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: Buttermilk N.Y. Pizza
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2011, 07:41:40 AM »
end of pictures.

Norma
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PaulsPizza

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Re: Buttermilk N.Y. Pizza
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2011, 09:40:31 AM »
Great looking pizza guys.
Norma, in the pictures you posted today the dough is in a container..how big are they? what was the weight of that dough ball? do those containers have a name?

Thanks,

Paul

Offline norma427

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Re: Buttermilk N.Y. Pizza
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2011, 01:57:32 PM »
Great looking pizza guys.
Norma, in the pictures you posted today the dough is in a container..how big are they? what was the weight of that dough ball? do those containers have a name?

Thanks,

Paul

Paul,

I am not sure, but think Steve’s container was a Rubbermaid “TakeAlongs” container that holds 6.25 cups or 1.47 L.  I am not sure of the weight of Steve’s dough ball, but it made a 16" pizza.

Norma
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Re: Buttermilk N.Y. Pizza
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2011, 02:31:49 PM »
Thanks Norma,  I will do some research on them. 
Paul

Offline Ev

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Re: Buttermilk N.Y. Pizza
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2011, 03:51:04 PM »
Paul,
 
  Norma is correct in her identification of the container.
 Here is the formula for one dough ball. Keep in mind, however that the formula uses plain water, not buttermilk, so the actual weight may change a bit using buttermilk. I gotta believe though, that any difference would be miniscule and insignificant.

Flour (KASL)  345g
Liquid 210g
IDY  61% .86g  .29 t.
Salt 1.75% 6g 1.26t.
oil 2% 6.9g 1.5t.
Total Ball 570g 20.1 oz. 1.26lb.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 03:53:54 PM by Ev »

PaulsPizza

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Re: Buttermilk N.Y. Pizza
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2011, 04:35:22 PM »
61% IDY! That baby must have risen well...:-) Typo..? Lol

Thanks Steve, I am looking for a round individual container that will hold a 2 day fermented 400ish gram dough ball. I  will research the price and shipping to the UK.

Thanks again Norma and Steve,

Paul







Paul,
 
  Norma is correct in her identification of the container.
 Here is the formula for one dough ball. Keep in mind, however that the formula uses plain water, not buttermilk, so the actual weight may change a bit using buttermilk. I gotta believe though, that any difference would be miniscule and insignificant.

Flour (KASL)  345g
Liquid 210g
IDY  61% .86g  .29 t.
Salt 1.75% 6g 1.26t.
oil 2% 6.9g 1.5t.
Total Ball 570g 20.1 oz. 1.26lb.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 04:43:29 PM by PaulsPizza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Buttermilk N.Y. Pizza
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2011, 04:46:42 PM »
61% IDY! That baby must have risen well...:-) Typo..? Lol

Thanks Steve, I am looking for a round individual container that will hold a 2 day fermented 400ish gram dough ball. I  will research the price and shipping to the UK.

Thanks again Norma and Steve,

Paul


Paul,

I do think Steve made a typo error.  I think, but am not sure that he uses .25 for IDY.  He can correct me if I am wrong. 

Hope you can find some plastic containers.  They do work out well.  I use them for all my experimental doughs.

Norma
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Re: Buttermilk N.Y. Pizza
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2011, 05:00:57 PM »
 
It just made me chuckle, can you imagine using 61% IDY! roughly the same weight as the water I use.



Paul,

I do think Steve made a typo error.  I think, but am not sure that he uses .25 for IDY.  He can correct me if I am wrong. 

Hope you can find some plastic containers.  They do work out well.  I use them for all my experimental doughs.

Norma