Second attempt at Neapolitian - Still need help

[Jackie Tran]

John, thank you for detailing your mix times and hydration.   Your dough looks awesome.  No wonder your pies look so good. 

Chau

[JConk007]

Thanks Jackie,
Vindii is using same flour so I thought I would give him my routine. I did mention in my post that the dough shown there is from Amano. They use Caputo and Cake yeast. My neapolitan dough does looks similar but I forgot to take pictures  before the event last time.
John

[Jackie Tran]

Ah I was reading that late last night, but still I was glad to see the numbers as well.   

[JConk007]

Just did not want to take credit for something I did not make. But yes thats the routine.
they will sell me dough so I will try it this spring. I am also trying cake yeast soon for the 1st time! came with the free starters so I gotta get them going as well!
John

[ponzu]

I think Ill go back to the 8 minute knead time and try a shorter warm up.  I have never done and autolyse.  Is it basically a rest time before a cold ferment?

Vindii.  Autolyse is just a resting period prior to mixing.  It has a big effect on gluten development and allows the mixer to mix much more efficiently.  In my experience this will contribute much more to your final dough structure than an extra 2 minutes in the bosch.

To autolyse.  throw all of your ingredients in the bosch.  mix on 1 until the dough just comes together, (20 seconds) then turn off the bosch.  let the flour rest and plump up with the water for 20 minutes then mix on 1 for however long you want to mix.

That's it.  but I think you'll see a huge difference in gluten development, and thus, dough quality.

AZ

[Pete-zza]

Vindii,

Technically, autolyse is conducted in the absence of yeast and salt (and other ingredients). Professor Raymond Calvel was the father of autolyse and descrived how it is used in his book The Taste of Bread. I excerpted his description of autolyse in Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12278.msg116355/topicseen.html#msg116355. One does not need to use a classic autolyse rest period. Other rest periods have similar effect in terms of improving hydration.

Peter

[Vindii]

I made 4 dough balls using the NY lehman recipe I have been using and they turned out fine.  My yeast is not the problem.  Its either my mixing or this flour that is giving me troubles. 

Lots of good ideas and info here for me to try.  Ill give it another try this week.

Thanks everyone.

Alex

[Vindii]

I also noticed that the recipe I was using for the NY lehman dough was making 465G balls.  The one Im using for the neapolitian pies balls at 386.  I assume this is just due to the thickness factor I used.  NY was .105 and neo was .087.  Am I correct?

This explains why the first time I made this I thought I did something wrong as the balls seemed to be smaller.

So if both are to make 14" pies then the Neo dough should be shaped thinner than a NY?

[Pete-zza]

Vindii,

See Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12243.msg115759/topicseen.html#msg115759.

Peter

[Vindii]

Vindii,

See Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12243.msg115759/topicseen.html#msg115759.

Peter

Thanks Pete - That link shows what you recommend for each pie type.  I guess my biggest question is that a Neo pie at .087 is shaped thinner than a NY pie at .105.  That is the basics of the thickness factor correct.  How thick the skin is shaped?

[JConk007]

try doing using 12" round and a  weight of 250 -275 G for neapolitan see what pops up
John

[Pete-zza]

vindii,

As Reply 916 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg130858/topicseen.html#msg130858, and the Lehmann article referenced therein demonstrate, the thickness factor involves dough weights and pizza sizes (the surface area). It is not a "thickness" factor as such as you would measure with a ruler. In the thickness (loading factor) post I referenced earlier, I just tried to pull together in one place the thickness factors that I have seen used on this forum over the years for different types and styles of pizzas, or that I calculated from dough ball weights and pizza sizes from recipes or actual member results. It is not a perfect science. Is is more of a rule of thumb.

Peter

[goneill]

Vindii,

It looks to me that you have underdeveloped dough and need more kneading time. I like to autolyse (let it sit) for 10 minutes after all the ingredients have been incorporated. Then I do two 5 minute kneadings on medium low that are separated by a 5 minute rest. Try bulk fermenting (in an almost airtight container) in the fridge for 20-24 hours, then bring it out for an hour before making dough balls. If your dough has not at least doubled after fermenting, your yeast is bad and/or you may want in increase the yeast %. Instant dry yeast (IDY) works well and does not need to be "bloomed" or "proofed" before adding it to the flour. I suggest yeast at more like .5% and your hydration % seems low for the high temps you are attempting to use. Try the increase in yeast and a hydration % of more like 64%

[Vindii]

I made a batch of dough last night for 4 12" pies using the Resturant Depot OO flour and this recipie.

Flour (100%):    667.74 g  |  23.55 oz | 1.47 lbs
Water (64%):    427.35 g  |  15.07 oz | 0.94 lbs
IDY (.3%):    2 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
Salt (2.8%):    18.7 g | 0.66 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.35 tsp | 1.12 tbsp
Total (167.1%):   1115.8 g | 39.36 oz | 2.46 lbs | TF = 0.087
Single Ball:   278.95 g | 9.84 oz | 0.61 lbs
BR was 0

I read all the advise in this thread and decided to add the flour and mix for 20 second.  Then I let it sit for 20 minutes and it looks good.  I then kneaded for 8 minutes.  

The dough was like soup.  Way too wet. It mostly spun around the center shaft of the bosch instead of kneading.  I attempted to dump it on the counter to try to work with it but it was just too soft and runny.  I ended up putting it back in the mixer and adding more flour to get it to a consistency that resembled how I thought dough should feel.

The last 2 batches I did were at 60% water and they were very soft also.  Not like this one but much looser than I was used to using 62% with KAAP.

I ended up with a dough ball that weighed 1227G.  Balled at 306G.  Is there a way to figure this out backwards to see what water % I ended up with?

Does some flour absorb water at different rates.  Why would this come out so wet?  I'm sure I weighted everything correctly.

Cooking tonight so wee will see how they come out.