Author Topic: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough  (Read 8030 times)

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Offline fazzari

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2011, 09:37:45 PM »
Peter and Norma
I think Reinhart's methods could be implemented in one perfect commercial setting I can think of for sure and probably others.  The one I'm thinking of would be a setting where one was open for a limited time (say dinner and simply had a limited amount of dough to sell.  This would work perfect if one had other complimentary menu items such as pasta etc.
I don't understand the concern about the dough making process...if it were me I'd simply mix my dough per Reinhart's instructions, do my 4 stretch and folds (either by hand or mixer) in 5 minute increments (it works just fine this way)...I would then bulk ferment for a given amount of time (I'd experiment with 2 day or 3 day)..and then the day I was to use the fermented dough, I would scale, ball, and refrigerate and after that it would simply be dough management the way everyone else does dough management.  Hopefully, the restaurant would be so popular, all the dough would be used!!!!! We can all have dreams, right?
As an aside, in an earlier post I told about bringing dough balls to my mothers for lunch...I didn't finish the story because I didn't think it would matter...I took all 6 dough balls with me, but I only used 4, the other 2 sat out until after lunch.  I was going to throw them away since they had been out of refrigeration for 5 hours...but Mom insisted I throw them in the freezer and bring them back home with me that night.....so I did.  Upon arriving home I put the doughs back in the fridge to be tried another day.  Well, those doughs were what I used in my last photos...they were delicious!!!!  I'd have to do some more experimenting, but this seems to tell me one could re refrigerate any unused doughs in a restaurant setting and use them the next day.  I'm sure it would work out if one just does the proper planning.  
Just my two cents folks
John


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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2011, 09:37:57 PM »
Peter,

I know Brian Spangler has shown it is possible to use stretch and folds in his pizza business.  He also was a bread baker, before he owned a pizza business, so he has a lot more experience than I have with dough.  He is one of the few pizzerias using the artisan approach.

I am not confident even if I get a decent modified Reinhart classic dough if I can be successful in having the dough at different room temperatures in the summer and doing the stretch and folds.  I have no idea how that would turn out.  Right now the temperatures at market when I make my preferment Lehmann dough are only about 42 degrees F.  Since I am the only one making the dough and my market temperatures do vary very much, I am not sure what will happen.  

I can understand workers can be trained to do stretch and folds in a commercial setting.  I wonder why more commercial pizza businesses donít use the stretch and fold methods.   

Norma
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Online norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2011, 09:52:36 PM »
Peter and Norma
I think Reinhart's methods could be implemented in one perfect commercial setting I can think of for sure and probably others.  The one I'm thinking of would be a setting where one was open for a limited time (say dinner and simply had a limited amount of dough to sell.  This would work perfect if one had other complimentary menu items such as pasta etc.
I don't understand the concern about the dough making process...if it were me I'd simply mix my dough per Reinhart's instructions, do my 4 stretch and folds (either by hand or mixer) in 5 minute increments (it works just fine this way)...I would then bulk ferment for a given amount of time (I'd experiment with 2 day or 3 day)..and then the day I was to use the fermented dough, I would scale, ball, and refrigerate and after that it would simply be dough management the way everyone else does dough management.  Hopefully, the restaurant would be so popular, all the dough would be used!!!!! We can all have dreams, right?
As an aside, in an earlier post I told about bringing dough balls to my mothers for lunch...I didn't finish the story because I didn't think it would matter...I took all 6 dough balls with me, but I only used 4, the other 2 sat out until after lunch.  I was going to throw them away since they had been out of refrigeration for 5 hours...but Mom insisted I throw them in the freezer and bring them back home with me that night.....so I did.  Upon arriving home I put the doughs back in the fridge to be tried another day.  Well, those doughs were what I used in my last photos...they were delicious!!!!  I'd have to do some more experimenting, but this seems to tell me one could re refrigerate any unused doughs in a restaurant setting and use them the next day.  I'm sure it would work out if one just does the proper planning.  
Just my two cents folks
John

John,

Thanks so much for your ideas of how Reinhartís methods could be implemented into a commercial setting.  I can understand more now how the dough making process could be simplified with maybe the mixer doing the bulk of the stretch and fold method (by letting the dough rest and then slowly mixing again) and finally time management with the dough. 

Your experiment with those left over dough balls was interesting.  That pie looked great you posted from that experiment.

I appreciate how much you have helped me and I am sure also other members.  :)

Norma
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Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2011, 10:09:04 PM »
Norma,
I baked a loaf of Reinhart bread this evening using the 10 second mix/ 10 minute rest method and it was the best bread I've ever made! (for pizza I did 5 seconds but this dough needed more work)  I'm sure a skilled baker could do better by hand but if you're concerned with simplification this is doing the trick for me.
Dave
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2011, 10:14:56 PM »
I can understand workers can be trained to do stretch and folds in a commercial setting.  I wonder why more commercial pizza businesses donít use the stretch and fold methods.   

Norma,

My recollection is that at one time the restaurant A16 in the San Francisco area did use either stretch and fold or punchdowns of the dough balls during their cold fermentation. With all of the chef and managerial changes at A16, I would be surprised if they are still using these methods.

At a more general level, I think a really big game changer in the pizza business was the invention of refrigeration. This gave pizza operators much better control over their inventory, increased yields (there was no need to throw away unused dough balls at the end of the day), and they were able to get several days out of their dough balls. By using straight dough preparation methods and getting the dough balls promptly into the coolers, there was little opportunity for things to go wrong. This meant that you could use low cost labor and not worry that they would forget to use autolyse, proper rest periods, add ingredients at the right time, use stretch and folds, and so on. This scheme arguably led to a quality gap but that quality gap was perhaps filled by Neapolitan style pizzas and the occasional artisan pizza operator like Dom DeMarco (in his own right) and Brian Spangler et al. They are really artists and superstars and everyone knows who they are. They are one of a kind and the key to their success.

Peter

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2011, 10:37:15 PM »
Norma,
I baked a loaf of Reinhart bread this evening using the 10 second mix/ 10 minute rest method and it was the best bread I've ever made! (for pizza I did 5 seconds but this dough needed more work)  I'm sure a skilled baker could do better by hand but if you're concerned with simplification this is doing the trick for me.
Dave

Dave,

Thanks for posting about your loaf of Reinhart bread and what methods you used. The bread really sounds good!  :) Do you use the classic dough formula for the bread?  Glad to hear you are getting good results with your simple methods. 

Norma
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Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2011, 10:51:26 PM »
Norma,
I can't tell you how much we liked this bread!  It was the Struan from Artisan Bread Every Day and if you want to know more about it I'll start a thread on the other food board rather than highjack a pizza thread.  My point here is the leave-it-in-the-mixer method is worth considering.  (my mixer is completely sealed so I don't have to worry about drying during the rest periods)
Dave
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Online norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #47 on: March 31, 2011, 10:56:03 PM »
Norma,

My recollection is that at one time the restaurant A16 in the San Francisco area did use either stretch and fold or punchdowns of the dough balls during their cold fermentation. With all of the chef and managerial changes at A16, I would be surprised if they are still using these methods.

At a more general level, I think a really big game changer in the pizza business was the invention of refrigeration. This gave pizza operators much better control over their inventory, increased yields (there was no need to throw away unused dough balls at the end of the day), and they were able to get several days out of their dough balls. By using straight dough preparation methods and getting the dough balls promptly into the coolers, there was little opportunity for things to go wrong. This meant that you could use low cost labor and not worry that they would forget to use autolyse, proper rest periods, add ingredients at the right time, use stretch and folds, and so on. This scheme arguably led to a quality gap but that quality gap was perhaps filled by Neapolitan style pizzas and the occasional artisan pizza operator like Dom DeMarco (in his own right) and Brian Spangler et al. They are really artists and superstars and everyone knows who they are. They are one of a kind and the key to their success.

Peter

Peter,

I also think the quality gap probably was filled by the Neapolitan style pizzas and the occasional operators like Dom DeMarco and Brain Spangler. Most newer pizza businesses (in better locations) are going with WFOís and finding that niche.  I agree, if I had the chance and was younger, I would go with a WFO, if in the right location.  I just donít hear much about regular commerical pizza operators even wanting to try different methods to see if their pizza can be made better by using artisan methods.  I donít know if they just donít want to take the time to learn, or if they havenít found this forum. I am sure their workers could be trained to use artisan methods.  Either way they are missing out on getting a better product.

Norma
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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2011, 11:00:21 PM »
Norma,
I can't tell you how much we liked this bread!  It was the Struan from Artisan Bread Every Day and if you want to know more about it I'll start a thread on the other food board rather than highjack a pizza thread.  My point here is the leave-it-in-the-mixer method is worth considering.  (my mixer is completely sealed so I don't have to worry about drying during the rest periods)
Dave

Dave,

I would be interested in hearing about your bread if you want to start another thread.  I am always interested in hearing about bread or different methods for making pizza dough.

I can understand that leaving the dough in the mixer can produce great results.

Norma
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Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2011, 05:51:52 PM »
I also have doubts about the scalability of pizza businesses that depend heavily on using artisan methods. I am not sure that the passion of the artisan can be easily taught to others who are not similarly motivated. I understand that Jeff Varasano has expansion plans, and I have learned not to doubt the man's capabilities, but I would like to see if he, or others like him, can succeed with their vision to replicate their businesses beyond a single unit.

Peter

I can't add much here but my agreement!  After talking at length with Peter Taylor here in Tampa, I came away with how passionate he is about his product.  He's still using a wild captured FL yeast and is doing a non-refrigerated proof/rise procedure.  If he runs out of skins, that's it, he's done for the day!  I admire that but it's a damn scary business model in my opinion.

I respect Peter a ton for his willingness to share what he knows....matter of fact, I'm getting ready to feed the starter I created from the dough he gave me :D

Mark


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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #50 on: April 03, 2011, 06:50:34 PM »
I posted I made one modified Reinhart classic dough at Reply 22
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg133583.html#msg133583

I used the same formula I posted at Reply 33 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13347.msg133201.html#msg133201 and made two dough balls with the formula. The finished dough temperature was 76.1 degree F.  For the one dough ball I divided the dough in half and added 1% milk replacer to the formula after the dough was mixed and divided.  I added 2.44265 grams of milk replacer to the one dough. I just put the milk replacer in after the mix and it incorporated well when doing the stretch and folds.  The dough has been cold fermenting for almost a day now and looks like both doughs are doing well.  They are fermenting at about the same rate and both smell good.

Pictures top and bottom of both dough balls.  The second set of pictures are the modified Reinhart dough ball that I added the milk replacer.   

Norma
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Online norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2011, 09:50:05 PM »
The modified Reinhart classic doughs without the milk replacer and with the milk replacer were made into pizzas today.  The modified Reinhart dough with the milk replacer was the best pizza.  It was moister, had a better taste in the crust and was better overall.  Steve and I both agreed  that adding the milk replacer made a better pizza.  

First pictures are of the modified Reinhart classic pizza without the dough replacer.  Second set of pictures are with the milk replacer.

Norma
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Online norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2011, 09:53:54 PM »
end of pictures without milk replacer

Norma
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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2011, 09:56:52 PM »
modified Reinhart classic pizza with milk replacer

Norma
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Online norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2011, 09:58:54 PM »
end of pictures with milk replacer

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2011, 10:24:27 PM »
Norma,

I went to the PetSmart website at http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3480958 to look more closely at the ingredients list for the milk replacer product. It looks like it has many of the ingredients that you are considering using for your dough enhancer blend under the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.0.html. I also see under Directions for Use that the milk replacer is not for human consumption. It is hard to imagine that it would cause harm to humans, much like someone eating dog or cat food.

Peter

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #56 on: April 05, 2011, 11:07:56 PM »
Norma,

I went to the PetSmart website at http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3480958 to look more closely at the ingredients list for the milk replacer product. It looks like it has many of the ingredients that you are considering using for your dough enhancer blend under the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.0.html. I also see under Directions for Use that the milk replacer is not for human consumption. It is hard to imagine that it would cause harm to humans, much like someone eating dog or cat food.

Peter


Peter,

I thought I would give the milk replacer a try after I read what you posted about the SAF guide to Dough Conditioner ingredients at Reply http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg133410.html#msg133410   After I read all those ingredients I thought what harm could it do to try the milk replacer in a dough.  I know the milk replacer says it isnít fit for human consumption, but I also donít see anything in the ingredients that would be harmful for humans.  I just think the FDA hasnít tested this on humans and they donít want anyone to give it to human babies.  My small kittens are doing well on the milk replacer.  Maybe Peter Reinhart will be singing the same song as Tom Lehmann. 
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0-bbSSaNFE" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0-bbSSaNFE</a>
  :-D

Maybe my dough conditioner might work the same way as the milk replacer did in this experiment, if I am lucky.

I donít know if I will try the milk replacer again next week in a higher percent.  If I do, you have any recommendations for the amount to try?

Norma
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #57 on: April 06, 2011, 11:06:58 AM »
I donít know if I will try the milk replacer again next week in a higher percent.  If I do, you have any recommendations for the amount to try?

Norma,

For a product not intended for human consumption and with about 35 different ingredients, many of which are alien to me, I am not sure what you will get by further experimenting with the product. With so many ingredients, there would be no way to know what caused what effects.

Peter

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #58 on: April 06, 2011, 12:44:31 PM »
Norma,

For a product not intended for human consumption and with about 35 different ingredients, many of which are alien to me, I am not sure what you will get by further experimenting with the product. With so many ingredients, there would be no way to know what caused what effects.

Peter


Peter,

I can understand I wonít be able to know what ingredients in the milk replacer are responsible for getting better results.  I just picked a general real baby dried formula, Nestleís http://www.epinions.com/review/Nestle_Good_Start_Supreme_DHA_ARA/content_210678746756 They also have many ingredients I have no idea what they are, just like the milk replacer for the kittens, but I can see there is no point in continuing with the milk replacer for kittens.  I just wanted to see if the milk replacer made a difference in the crust of the pizza.

Hopefully I can get started experimenting with my experimental homemade  ďdough conditionerĒ , until next week to try in the Lehman dough and possibly if this dough.

Norma
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Online norma427

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Re: Modified Reinhart Classic Dough
« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2011, 08:07:52 AM »
I donít know how useful this post will be, but the newborn kittens we have been caring for, had looser stools than we thought they should.  We called Animal House and then our vets and they suggested KMR kitten milk replacer.  The vet had recommended that at first, but because it was more expensive at the vets, they thought Petsmart did sell it, but Petsmart did discontinue it in our area.  That is why we went with 21 Century Milk Replacer for the kittens.  That is what I tried in the Reinhart dough the last time.  Wednesday we bought a can of KMR from the vet to try.  The KMR milk replacer does say it isn't  fit for human consumption, but it says on the web that it is made with all food grade ingredients and food processing requirements.  KMR does have a different list of ingredients than the 21 Century milk replacer.  http://www.petag.com/PDFs/PetAg-KMR-Spring-Kitten-Care.pdf and http://hubpages.com/hub/PetAg-KMR-Milk-Replacer-for-Kittens-Healthy-Pet-Foods-Pet-Food-Danger-Gauge

I wonder if I should just give this KMR milk replacer a try in the modified Reinhart dough to see if there or any differences.  I know I never will be using this in my regular doughs all the time, (because it is too expensive) but I am curious about how it will affect the same dough.  I am sure these kittens will be using two cans of the KMR a week.  It was 18.06 for a 6 oz. can.  I have to search for cheaper cans to try.

Pictures of the 1 week old kittens, now being fed with KMR.  I am losing sleep from these kittens, so if I post something stupid, in any of my posts, it could be from my lack of sleep. Being a mother to newborn kittens isn't easy!  :-D

Norma
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 08:41:57 AM by norma427 »
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