New Formula advice

[forzaroma]

I am trying to come up with a new formula for this weeks dough experiment and  I will use 100 percent KABF as I ran out of Caputo otherwise I would use 50/50 mix. Also and this is my biggest issue i will be using 100% natural preferment. I have a starter that is 100% hydration by weight. I have been feeding it 50% flour and 50% water 1 ounce at a time. Now my question is what percentage should I use as I have seen so many different numbers reading past threads over and over. I have seen anywhere from 3% to 20%. Yesterday I was reading a thread from Marco and he was using like 3% but that seems low to me as I will be using cold fermentation so maybe that is the reason to use a higher %. I have came up with a formula using the tool with preferment using 20% preferment and I don't want to use any commercial yeast if not necessary. Any ideas or advice would be much appreciated.

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):    957.13 g  |  33.76 oz | 2.11 lbs
Water (65%):    622.13 g  |  21.94 oz | 1.37 lbs
Salt (2.5%):    23.93 g | 0.84 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.29 tsp | 1.43 tbsp
Total (167.5%):   1603.19 g | 56.55 oz | 3.53 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   320.64 g | 11.31 oz | 0.71 lbs

Preferment:
Flour:    71.78 g | 2.53 oz | 0.16 lbs
Water:    71.78 g | 2.53 oz | 0.16 lbs
Total:    143.57 g | 5.06 oz | 0.32 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:    885.35 g | 31.23 oz | 1.95 lbs
Water:    550.35 g | 19.41 oz | 1.21 lbs
Salt:    23.93 g | 0.84 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.29 tsp | 1.43 tbsp
Preferment:    143.57 g | 5.06 oz | 0.32 lbs
Total:    1603.19 g | 56.55 oz | 3.53 lbs  | TF = N/A

[Mmmph]

Looks good to me.

I go 63% with KABF, but have used 65% with no probs. I go 2.3% salt, but that's just a matter of taste.
I must say, those are some big doughballs. How big a pizza are you baking?

I go 270G for a 12" pizza and I feel like I could/should go lower.

[forzaroma]

Looks good to me.

I go 63% with KABF, but have used 65% with no probs. I go 2.3% salt, but that's just a matter of taste.
I must say, those are some big doughballs. How big a pizza are you baking?

I go 270G for a 12" pizza and I feel like I could/should go lower.

I got that by using thickness factor 0f 0.10 using 12 inch pie thats the measurment it came up with.

[Mmmph]

Hey, no prob. Go for it.

It just seemed big to me.
I guess I make thin pizza.

[forzaroma]

Yeah I can def go thinner but im using home oven. My issue is the starter % anyway lol

[Jackie Tran]

Forzaroma, you can use anywhere from 1%-100% of the flour, water, or total dough weight in starter.  It's totally up to you depending on how quickly you want to make pizza.   Remember that starter contains yeast.  So the more of it you use the faster the dough will ferment. 

The percentage can change quite a bit depending on bulk times and temps, fermentation times and temps (including cold fermentation here), proof times and temps (generally done at ambient room temps).

There won't be a drastic difference b/t 20-30% starter at room temps and should get you somewhere in the neighborhood of 6-8h at a room temp of 75F.   You will just have to play around with the percentage use, watch the dough, and take notes pre and post bake to determine what % is ideal for your particularly workflow.


Hope that helps,
Chau

[norma427]

forzaroma,

Chau is right, there can be different amounts of preferments used and the temperature, proof times, etc. can all change the dough and final pizza.

I have tried different percentages of preferments in dough and you won’t know until you try your dough out how it will work for you using KABF.  I know different members used different amounts of preferments in dough.  I have cold fermented doughs with different amounts of preferments and they did turn out okay.

Good luck! 

Norma

[forzaroma]

Hey Chau I'm trying to follow varasano method and will cold ferment with no commercial yeast. I will make the dough tonight and make pies on Saturday. I wasnt planning on bulk room temp or commercial yeast unless advised otherwise.

      Mike

[Jackie Tran]

Mike, how much of a sourdough taste do you like?  A lot or a little?   How cold is your fridge?

BTW, I believe Jeff's hydration to be a bit higher than 65%.  If you want to make a pie like versano's, pay attention to the pictures of his dough more so than numbers per say.  Use the numbers as a guide but adjust your water or flour base on the look of the dough at various stages.   You'll also need high temps.

Also from memory, Versano uses around 8-10% starter with a pinch of ady.  So Versano's (old method) does use a bit of ADY, but if you want to leave it out, it's no biggie. 

Chau

[forzaroma]

I like a pretty mild sourdough flavor and my fridge is around 38 I think

I know I have used his method with Caputo

[Jackie Tran]

I like a pretty mild sourdough flavor and my fridge is around 38 I think

I know I have used his method with Caputo

So have you used around 10% starter and Versano's method before for a 2-3 day cold ferment?  How was the flavor?  Was sour enough for you?  Did you get the texture you wanted?   Also what hydration did you use prior for the caputo flour?

If I understand you correctly you want to make a 2-3 day Cold fermented pie using only starer, no commercial yeast, a mild SD flavor,  and you will be using BF correct?  No oil or sugar as well right?  And same baking method and time correct?



Chau

[forzaroma]

I have used 9% with .25 idy using a 2 day cold ferment. Flavor was good but I didnt get a good oven spring. When I used bread flour i used 63% hydration with no oil or sugar using the cleaning cycle of my oven (which I have yet mastered).

[Jackie Tran]

Mike without making this too complicated, your problem with spring really isn't the IDY.  Jeff put it in there to provide a bit of extra lift.  This can help depending on the leavening ability of your natural starter.  Leaving it in there likely won't hurt and leaving it out may or may not make much of a difference.

Lots of things can affect oven spring.  Peter made a list of these variables here....reply #515
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg104559/topicseen.html#msg104559

The 2 main culprits of a poor ovenspring are often lack of sufficient gluten development in the dough and/or the lack of a hot even heat distribution (the more even and hot the heat is the better).  Without knowing how much starter and ADY or IDY you used before which resulted in poor ovenspring, another possibility is overfermentation.  Towards the end of fermentation, I have found that excess acids can do funny things to the gluten matrix.  It can weaken the the gluten matrix causing water to be release, toughen up the crumb, and lead to suboptimal ovenspring.

Whether you decide to use the additional IDY or not, your use of BF instead of 00 will give you a bit of a head start towards better ovenspring.  

My recommendation for a 2-3 day cold ferment is to use around 10% active starter and just a pinch of ADY or IDY.  Maybe 1/64th of tsp or less per 300gm doughball or so.  If you are interested in oven spring, I myself would forgo the starter and just work with IDY or ADY for now.  I wouldn't make the switch to using starters until you can make a satisfactory pie with desired texture and spring with commercial yeast.  This way if you are unhappy with the results you are getting with starters, you can always fall back on your standard.  This avoids a lot of fustrations IMO.

Whichever source of yeast you want to use for a 2-3 day cold ferment, I would keep the yeast on the low side.  Once the yeast (starter or commercial or both) is dissolved in the water and flour, I would allow for the dough mixture to be out at room temps for about an hour or so to help kick start the yeast.   Then you can go to cold fermentation.  Of course the lower the temps, the more slowly it will ferment.   Also depending on how much you use and how the dough is progressing, you will want to take the dough out to proof at room temps for anywhere from an hour to 3-4 hours before baking.  

If you are willing, you can detail the recipe and methods you end up using here along with pictures and either myself or others can recommend when to pull the dough out or how long to counter proof before baking, base on how the dough looks to be progressing.  

If you want a sample recipe, then let me know which yeast source you will be using and if you want to use oil in the formula.

Hope that helps,
Chau

[forzaroma]

Chau I have used commercial yeast in the past and was happy with the oven spring. I have used a pie with 100 percent natural starter and loved the taste but that was fine i am just trying to perfect my method.

I will use 100 percent starter and in the past I have used the varasano mixing technique of using all but 75% of the flour to mix with my KA mixer for 20 minutes I am sure you are familiar with his mixing method. I will try to go with the 10% starter and a pinch of IDY and an hour room temp then in fridge for 2 and half days and then 3 hour room temp before baking but if you want to come up with a method sure lets do it and Ill post pics of the process for sure.

                                           Mike

[Jackie Tran]

Chau I have used commercial yeast in the past and was happy with the oven spring. I have used a pie with 100 percent natural starter and loved the taste but that was fine i am just trying to perfect my method.

I will use 100 percent starter and in the past I have used the varasano mixing technique of using all but 75% of the flour to mix with my KA mixer for 20 minutes I am sure you are familiar with his mixing method. I will try to go with the 10% starter and a pinch of IDY and an hour room temp then in fridge for 2 and half days and then 3 hour room temp before baking but if you want to come up with a method sure lets do it and Ill post pics of the process for sure.

                                           Mike

Mike the formula you have is a fine one and should work just great.   I really refrain from recommending a knead time b/c there is no magical number of minutes to knead that will work for a variety of flours, hydration ratios, and types of mixers.  

For bread flour, I would even forgo the mixer at this point and just do it by hand.  
Using a room temp water or slightly higher...
-dissolve the starter and ADY or IDY into the water.
-Next add salt and dissolve that into the yeasted water.
-Now sift 100% of the flour into the water and using both hands squeeze the flour in until you get an even mixture.  This can take between 1-2 min.   Make sure you have a sticky relatively lump free mass of dough.  You don't want this dough to be to wet or liquid but not too dry either.  Probably a bit stiffer than what Jeff shows on his website.
-Let the mixture sit for 45m-1h (modified autolyse)
-Hand knead with palms pushing dough out, using other hand to turn dough back in for a minute or so.
-Allow to rest another 10m.  Knead for another 1min or do some stretch and folds.
-Cold ferment.  You may need to go back and do some additional folds after 4-8hours of cold ferment.  Try it both ways.
-Take and post pics after day 1 and day 2.  Take pictures of sides of tuperware bowls and bottom. 

Chau

[forzaroma]

Am I bulk fermenting if so when do I ball the dough?

[Jackie Tran]

Am I bulk fermenting if so when do I ball the dough?

Yes the bulk fermentation is relatively short and begins when the flour is added to the yeast water until you are done with the last fold and then cold fermentation.   

You can divide and ball the dough right before it goes into the cold or you can cold ferment the bulk for 4-8 hours, pull it out cold divide and ball then.  Up to you.  Try both methods if you want.   Do have of the dough one way and the other half the other way to see what you like better.  I've done both with good results.   Just keep in mind that the more kneading and folds you do, the more strength will be put into the dough. 

You want a dough that will open fairly easily after the room temp proof.  You don't want a dough that opens too easily and is unmanageable and not one that you have to work up a sweat to open or that tears with opening.  Something inbetween.   

Chau

[forzaroma]

So day if baking I'll take dough out 3-4 hours before bake?

[Jackie Tran]

So day if baking I'll take dough out 3-4 hours before bake?

Depending on how the dough is looking and how fast or slow it has been fermenting in the fridge.  You'll need to post pictures of the dough right after balling (whenever you want to do that), and then 24, 36, and 48 hours after that.  I can see how fast it's rising and tell you more or less when an appropriate time to pull it out of the fridge.   

What is your ambient room temp in your kitchen?

Chau

[forzaroma]

72