Author Topic: New Formula advice  (Read 6113 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6988
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2011, 02:22:22 PM »
I never dump it in drain I use it in my dough. I feed my starter by weight 1 ounce of water and one ounce of flour. Should I be adding more? I have a mason jar that I use. Also When I use my starter to add to my dough I give it a stir is this OK to do or should I just pour it in as is? My starter is a bit wet a touch stiffer than a batter.

What your doing is fine.  I think most members are probably using a 50/50 mix of water and flour.  I like to feed mine with AP flour but BF is fine.  It will just give a bit stiffer starter.  If you are using your starter daily or you don't keep much starter, then just feeding it the  way you do is fine.  If it's longer periods between use like 3-4 days, then I will discard a lot of the excess starter and refeed before going to sleep in the fridge.  This way it slowly ferments (like a cold fermented pizza dough) and will be ready to use in 3-4 days.  I take it out and place the jar in some warm water and it's ready to use within an hour.  It also gives me a relatively young starter and not a mature starter.  There are many ways of using and maintaining starters.  You'll find what is best for you once you use it awhile. 

I like to just pour it in the dough but stirring won't really make a difference.  Stirring before adding is fine.  If you decide to add more flour then you would be making a sponge.  I like 50/50 b/c it's easy to recalculate your hydration ratio after you've added the starter.

Chau


Offline forzaroma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 384
Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2011, 02:52:41 PM »
Exactly why I use 50/50 as well just easier to know whats in there. I am new to starters and if I don't have dough planned and store in fridge should I still feed daily?

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6988
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2011, 03:11:40 PM »
Not necessarily.  Lots of ways to do it.  As long as it's active before using.   You'd just be creating extra work I think.

Chau

Offline forzaroma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 384
Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2011, 03:25:42 PM »
Ok cool. I will def post progress tonight when I get home and I think I will def reball the ones that I balled right away but should I post pics first?

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6988
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2011, 04:35:38 PM »
Ok cool. I will def post progress tonight when I get home and I think I will def reball the ones that I balled right away but should I post pics first?

You don't have to post pics first but just snap a pic of before and after reballing.  Maybe have it drooping off your hand to show it's strength or lack of it.   If you do decide to reball, remember to keep it at a very minimum.  Hard to say how much b/c I do this part by feel, but you definitely don't want to ball it tight.  Let it have a little slack but doughballs should be able to hold their shape somewhat after balling.  I'll typically look for it to flatten a bit but not too much.  

Mike you may want to just reball 2 of the 3 balls.  Use a post it note or some masking tape to note which ball is which.  This way you can compare the differences in how each opens versus how much and when the reballing was done.   Things you'll want to jot down mentally and on a note pad is specifically the feel of the dough before and after reballing, how much it flattens out, how it opens up, and how much spring you get during the bake.   You can make adjustments for future batches.  Having the proper dough condition is only half of the challenge.  Having the proper bake is just as important.  

This is a much more tedious process than following a recipe but it will pay dividends later down the road in terms of understanding dough characteristics.  Also if the dough seems hard to open, then at least you know the source of the problem.  

Chau
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 04:41:06 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline forzaroma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 384
Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2011, 04:38:53 PM »
Ok will do and thanks for all you help so far I will def repay someone with the knowledge that I learn here!!

Offline forzaroma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 384
Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2011, 08:13:44 AM »
OK heres the update from last night. I re balled 2 out of 3 and took pics to show.

1. these are the balls that I didn't reball and were bulk fermented and then balled in the am.
2. Side view of one of those balls( I used a proofing box for these)
3. This is the one of balls from the first balled dough non bulk ferment I put on my hand to show it was soft
4. That ball reballed. Was nice and smooth took little extra time to pinch ball to stay closed.
5. Same ball in the container

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6988
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2011, 08:42:32 AM »
Mike, thanks for playing along and taking the photos as well.  I appreciate that.  ;D

Based on picture #3, my gut says not to reball it even though I did tell you to.   How many balls out of that batch did you end up reballing?  Also I hope you only put just a minimum of folds into that doughball.  One observation that you made that I like is that it took a bit of work to seal the edge.  This is usually my stopping point for a room temperature dough.  This is the point that usually triggers alarms in my head that says, the dough has had enough.  Not sure for a cold fermented dough though.

Anyways, no harm done as now you will be able to see the difference in how the 3 different doughs open up and bake up.   

1. Minimal kneading with balling after 8 hours (or so) of cold ferment
                              versus
2. Minimal kneading with balling prior to cold fermentation
                              versus
3. Minimal kneading with balling prior to CF and after 24 hours of CF.  (this one will resist opening up the most).

If you don't mind, can you post a picture of the bottom of a doughball that has been sitting in the clear bowl container.  We can gauge the progression of fermentation from that.  This will be the same doughball I'd like to see the bottom of tonight and about 4-5 hours prior to baking.   This will give us an idea of when to pull the dough from the fridge.

Mike, the process I'm having you trial is also a very similar process that I am currently experimenting with and using myself.  I made up 2 doughballs last night with 10% active mature starter (no IDY) to be baked Saturday evening.  They were out at room temps for about 1.5 h before cold fermenting at 45F.

I also made up some bread dough last night using 35% starter and very warm water (95F or so) and allowed it to be out for around 3 hours at room temps before going to sleep.  This bread will be baked this afternoon sometime.  Already there is a huge difference in activity between the pizza dough and bread dough.  This is to give you an idea of the difference between using difference amounts of starter, different water temps, and the difference in varying room temp bulk times. 

I have to run now, but will post pics later.

Chau

Offline forzaroma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 384
Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2011, 08:49:56 AM »
I reballed 2 out of the 3. I feel it was not sealing because the dough was cold but I did only 2 small folds to reform the ball. Do you want a pic of the reballed dough ball or the one that I balled after the the intitial bulk ferment?
Why do you think I shouldnt of reballed that dough? What signs are we looking for to guage the fermentation? Bubbles?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 08:54:14 AM by forzaroma »

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6988
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2011, 12:13:46 PM »
I reballed 2 out of the 3. I feel it was not sealing because the dough was cold but I did only 2 small folds to reform the ball. Do you want a pic of the reballed dough ball or the one that I balled after the the intitial bulk ferment?
Why do you think I shouldnt of reballed that dough? What signs are we looking for to guage the fermentation? Bubbles?

A picture of one of the balls that was reballed after 8 hours of cold ferment or whichever you have in the clear plastic container.  We can see the bottom and note the relative rate of fermentation to the amount of yeast used and the fermentation temps. 

It's hard to always accurately judge exactly how much strength to build into a dough.  It is something that is done by feel and experience.  You'll become more adept at judging how much strength a dough needs the more dough experience you have.  By the looks of it, it probably didn't need any extra balling but since it was just 2 small folds, you're probably okay.    If anything, it will just have built a little extra strength into the dough and require just a bit more work to open it.  The dough isn't ruined or anything like that so no worries there. 

Here are a few pictures of doughballs I've made in the past.  These were all cold fermented.

-Pic 1 and 2 are different doughballs but at different stages of fermentation.  2 of course is further along.  I like to use the dough when it looks closer to #2.

-Pic 3 & 4 are on the verge of overfermentation IMO.  I don't like using it with such big aerated bubbles in the bottom or on the sides.  Also note the big bubbles that have surfaced on top.  These are introduced during the balling stage and have likely gotten bigger with the fermentation process.   On his website, Jeff also mentions to use the dough before this point.   At this point, particularly if you are using a mature starter, the flavors will be much more intense with increase acids developing.  Also the acids can toughing up the crumb, especially if you are using a relatively low hydrated dough.

Chau


Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6988
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2011, 12:22:55 PM »
Mike just mark the different doughs so that you can keep from confusing them as they all look the same at this point.   Again, pay close attention to how they open up at room temps and try to think about how much strength was added and in what way compared to how the dough feels at this point.  You can then compare that to the end texture and that should give you some ideas on what adjustments to make for the next time.

Here's some dough that I made last night using a very similar process to the one I gave you.  This is made with 100% HG flour, 78% hydration, 10% active starter.

Pic 1 starter passing the float test
Pic 2 after mixing in bowl with a fork
Pic 3 mixing by hand.  Squeezing the dough to get an even mixture.  Note how sticky the dough is.
Pic 4 dough mixture rested 40m
Pic 5 stretch and fold until it holds it's shape

Offline forzaroma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 384
Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2011, 12:26:07 PM »
There is no pic 5?

Offline forzaroma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 384
Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2011, 12:27:40 PM »
Next time I make dough I have to try that floating test for sure. I will take pics tonight and give you an update from the bottom of the container. I did see some air bubbles when I reballed but not too bad. Also I think I read that you sift your flour? If so why?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 12:30:27 PM by forzaroma »

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6988
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2011, 12:30:09 PM »
Pic 1 what the dough ball looks like after multiple rest periods and stretch and folds.
Pic 2 resting in it's container
Pic 3 taken this morning after 7 hours of cold ferment.  The dough has relaxed and spread out.
Pic 4 bottom of this dough ball this morning.

« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 12:34:58 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6988
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2011, 12:34:27 PM »
Here's the bread dough made with 100% HG flour, 35% starter (in flour weight), RT bulk with stretch and folds for 3 hours, CF for 6 hours.  Picture was taken this morning.  Compare this to the activity of the above. This dough is still in cold ferment and will be taken out this after noon and baked about 3-4 hours later.  

Chau
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 12:36:49 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6988
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2011, 12:51:51 PM »
Mike and others following this thread.  Deciding when to pull the dough from the fridge is not that complicated.  Once you know what you want the dough to look like towards the end of fermentation, you can then decide how close your current dough to that is.  

IF your dough on the day of baking looks optimally fermented, then just pull the dough about 1.5 hours before baking and set it on the counter.  This is sufficient time to allow the dough to come up to room temps.  I don't like stretch cold dough, I just don't.  But stretching cold can make it easier to handle weak dough, meaning it lacks proper strength.  A weak dough at room temps is going to be more extensible and may be harder to handle, depending on your skill level.

IF the dough looks to be about 75% of optimal, then I will take the dough out 3-4h before bake, sometimes more depending.  If I am getting close to bake time and the dough isn't quite there, then I will ferment the dough at temps higher than room temps.  90F+.  

You can do this by microwaving a small amount of water for about 1-2min.  Load the dough containers in there with the water and shut the door quickly.  This will create a warm moist proofing chamber.  I'll repeat this process every 15m or so depending on how fast I need the dough to ferment.  

I have also use the home oven to warm proof or placed the dough on top of the oven near the vent to warm proof as well.  Of course proofing outside in a sunny or shady spot provided it's not too hot can also work as well.  

All we are really doing here is changing the temperature at which dough ferments to slow it dough or hasten it's activity to match our schedule.   This can be done with just about any dough and any recipe.  

Hope that helps.
Chau

Offline forzaroma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 384
Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2011, 01:56:12 PM »
Good stuff learning alot with this thread and hope it shows alot of new bread/pizza makers something as well.

I dont know if you saw my question on sifting?

Offline forzaroma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 384
Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2011, 04:51:40 PM »
Now I am worried I got home from work and wanted to try the float test on my starter and scooped a little out and dropped it in some water and sank right to the bottom. Posted what starter looks like today.

Offline Jackie Tran

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6988
  • Location: Albuquerque NM
Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2011, 05:28:35 PM »
Mike your starter may be very mature and acidic.  The acids will tend to break down gluten not allowing the dough to trap gases in order for it to float.    You'll want to dump about 3/4 of it (to rid the acids), re-feed the starter with roughly the amount that you've dump out.  When it becomes active again it should float.   Taste the starter to verify the acidity.  Just the tip of your tongue.  Taste it again later once it becomes active after refeeding to see if you can detect the difference in acidity.  

Is this the same condition the starter was in when you used it for the dough?  
Have the doughballs appear to have risen at all since you first balled them?  If they are showing any rise at all you should be okay.   Can you take a picture of one of the bottoms of the clear container and post it?
 

Chau
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 01:28:09 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline forzaroma

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 384
Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2011, 05:41:31 PM »
To tell you the truth I think it was ok but I dont remember now. They did grow Ill put 2 pictures here bottom and side view.


 

pizzapan