Author Topic: New Formula advice  (Read 6557 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2011, 09:55:00 AM »
Mike, the balled dough after cold fermentation looks very nice.  :chef:


Offline forzaroma

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2011, 09:59:12 AM »
Jackie I was scared that after i balled them due to cold ferment the balls wouldnt form nicely but they did better than the ones I balled right away
. They are way smoother!! Anyway I will take pics of the dough when I get home to show you the process further along. Looks ok so far right?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2011, 10:03:24 AM »
Looks awesome so far.  Let's see how they do over the next couple of days.  I had you do both methods because it's hard to know exactly without feeling the dough myself.  Go ahead and reball any balls that haven't been already.

Chau

Offline forzaroma

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2011, 10:14:01 AM »
Well the other 3 I balled right away after the hour bulf ferment before the cold ferment. You think I need to reball those?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2011, 10:17:19 AM »
Well the other 3 I balled right away after the hour bulf ferment before the cold ferment. You think I need to reball those?

Well depending on what they look like now.  Can you post a pic of each side by side?  One reballed early and one reballed later.  The smooth reballed ones will relax and soften up after the next 24-48 hours.

How many balls total did you make and how many balled early vs later?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 10:22:59 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline forzaroma

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2011, 10:24:54 AM »
I did 3 and 3. I balled 3 right away befor cold ferment and I posted all the pics. I balled the 3 after the bulk cold ferment (smooth ones) this morning.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2011, 10:33:12 AM »
I did 3 and 3. I balled 3 right away befor cold ferment and I posted all the pics. I balled the 3 after the bulk cold ferment (smooth ones) this morning.

Ok just leave them be for now.  We'll take a look tonight at the 24hr mark.  I have a feeling that the early balled ones may need more strength.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 10:36:50 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline forzaroma

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2011, 10:34:35 AM »
Ok I will take pics tonight and post. I think the smooth ones will be fine.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2011, 10:43:25 AM »
Ok I will take pics tonight and post. I think the smooth ones will be fine.

Yes I agree, we don't want to mess with the smooth ones.  If they don't overfermemt by Saturday night, they should make good pies.  Did you remember to put a very thin layer of oil over the smooth ones?

Tonight I may have you wrestle one of the early balled ones out of the container to reball with a maximum of 2-3 small folds and then pinch seal the bottom.   Definitely don't want to overdo it at this point.  You can do the other 2 depending on how soft they feel.  But that's later.

Ttyl,
Chau
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 10:45:19 AM by Jackie Tran »


Offline forzaroma

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2011, 10:48:41 AM »
yes I did oil those. I will be baking pies around 6pm sat night. So by reballing I am strengthening the gluten?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2011, 10:55:04 AM »
Yes, time along with balling and stretch and folds help build gluten and strengthen the gluten matrix.

Did you use starter and yeast or just starter?  Also how did you determine the starter was active enough to use?

Chau

Offline forzaroma

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2011, 10:56:47 AM »
I used 10 percent starter of total weight and a pinch of IDY. I had this starter for 2 weeks feeding and using some. It was def active bubbly and foamy. I can take a pic of my starter jar when i get home and I fed it this morning so Im sure its bubbling again.

Offline forzaroma

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2011, 01:07:38 PM »
Jackie would that be correct foamy and bubbly?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2011, 02:07:12 PM »
Jackie would that be correct foamy and bubbly?

Yes foamy and bubbly indicates an active starter.  You can also use the float test as discussed in the Tartine book.  Take a bit of starter and drop it into a bowl of water.  If it floats or as soon as it floats, it's ready to use.  If it sinks then give it more time.   At the point that the starter starts to float, it's a young starter.   If you allow the starter to sit and get even more active it will continue to float for a good while developing more acids.  As the starter rises after being fed, it will continue to rise and then top off or dome.  At the point that the starter starts to recede in the middle, it is at full maturity.   A young starter vs a mature starter will give different results in texture and taste.  Once the starter starts receding, then it is overmaturing.   I try to look at starters as though it is another piece of dough.   As it ferments, it will get bigger, reach it's peak and then become deflated.  

As a fun exercise next time you go to feed your starter, instead of dumping the excess starter down the drain, leave it in a small bowl to watch it ferment.  I also will taste a small bit of it with the tip of my tongue when the starter is young versus mature.  You can definitely taste the difference in the acid load.  These acids will contribute to the textural and taste differences so you can decide at what point you want to use the starter to get the desired end texture and taste.  

Chau

Offline forzaroma

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2011, 02:13:47 PM »
I never dump it in drain I use it in my dough. I feed my starter by weight 1 ounce of water and one ounce of flour. Should I be adding more? I have a mason jar that I use. Also When I use my starter to add to my dough I give it a stir is this OK to do or should I just pour it in as is? My starter is a bit wet a touch stiffer than a batter.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2011, 02:22:22 PM »
I never dump it in drain I use it in my dough. I feed my starter by weight 1 ounce of water and one ounce of flour. Should I be adding more? I have a mason jar that I use. Also When I use my starter to add to my dough I give it a stir is this OK to do or should I just pour it in as is? My starter is a bit wet a touch stiffer than a batter.

What your doing is fine.  I think most members are probably using a 50/50 mix of water and flour.  I like to feed mine with AP flour but BF is fine.  It will just give a bit stiffer starter.  If you are using your starter daily or you don't keep much starter, then just feeding it the  way you do is fine.  If it's longer periods between use like 3-4 days, then I will discard a lot of the excess starter and refeed before going to sleep in the fridge.  This way it slowly ferments (like a cold fermented pizza dough) and will be ready to use in 3-4 days.  I take it out and place the jar in some warm water and it's ready to use within an hour.  It also gives me a relatively young starter and not a mature starter.  There are many ways of using and maintaining starters.  You'll find what is best for you once you use it awhile. 

I like to just pour it in the dough but stirring won't really make a difference.  Stirring before adding is fine.  If you decide to add more flour then you would be making a sponge.  I like 50/50 b/c it's easy to recalculate your hydration ratio after you've added the starter.

Chau

Offline forzaroma

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2011, 02:52:41 PM »
Exactly why I use 50/50 as well just easier to know whats in there. I am new to starters and if I don't have dough planned and store in fridge should I still feed daily?


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2011, 03:11:40 PM »
Not necessarily.  Lots of ways to do it.  As long as it's active before using.   You'd just be creating extra work I think.

Chau

Offline forzaroma

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2011, 03:25:42 PM »
Ok cool. I will def post progress tonight when I get home and I think I will def reball the ones that I balled right away but should I post pics first?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2011, 04:35:38 PM »
Ok cool. I will def post progress tonight when I get home and I think I will def reball the ones that I balled right away but should I post pics first?

You don't have to post pics first but just snap a pic of before and after reballing.  Maybe have it drooping off your hand to show it's strength or lack of it.   If you do decide to reball, remember to keep it at a very minimum.  Hard to say how much b/c I do this part by feel, but you definitely don't want to ball it tight.  Let it have a little slack but doughballs should be able to hold their shape somewhat after balling.  I'll typically look for it to flatten a bit but not too much.  

Mike you may want to just reball 2 of the 3 balls.  Use a post it note or some masking tape to note which ball is which.  This way you can compare the differences in how each opens versus how much and when the reballing was done.   Things you'll want to jot down mentally and on a note pad is specifically the feel of the dough before and after reballing, how much it flattens out, how it opens up, and how much spring you get during the bake.   You can make adjustments for future batches.  Having the proper dough condition is only half of the challenge.  Having the proper bake is just as important.  

This is a much more tedious process than following a recipe but it will pay dividends later down the road in terms of understanding dough characteristics.  Also if the dough seems hard to open, then at least you know the source of the problem.  

Chau
« Last Edit: March 24, 2011, 04:41:06 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline forzaroma

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2011, 04:38:53 PM »
Ok will do and thanks for all you help so far I will def repay someone with the knowledge that I learn here!!

Offline forzaroma

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2011, 08:13:44 AM »
OK heres the update from last night. I re balled 2 out of 3 and took pics to show.

1. these are the balls that I didn't reball and were bulk fermented and then balled in the am.
2. Side view of one of those balls( I used a proofing box for these)
3. This is the one of balls from the first balled dough non bulk ferment I put on my hand to show it was soft
4. That ball reballed. Was nice and smooth took little extra time to pinch ball to stay closed.
5. Same ball in the container

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2011, 08:42:32 AM »
Mike, thanks for playing along and taking the photos as well.  I appreciate that.  ;D

Based on picture #3, my gut says not to reball it even though I did tell you to.   How many balls out of that batch did you end up reballing?  Also I hope you only put just a minimum of folds into that doughball.  One observation that you made that I like is that it took a bit of work to seal the edge.  This is usually my stopping point for a room temperature dough.  This is the point that usually triggers alarms in my head that says, the dough has had enough.  Not sure for a cold fermented dough though.

Anyways, no harm done as now you will be able to see the difference in how the 3 different doughs open up and bake up.   

1. Minimal kneading with balling after 8 hours (or so) of cold ferment
                              versus
2. Minimal kneading with balling prior to cold fermentation
                              versus
3. Minimal kneading with balling prior to CF and after 24 hours of CF.  (this one will resist opening up the most).

If you don't mind, can you post a picture of the bottom of a doughball that has been sitting in the clear bowl container.  We can gauge the progression of fermentation from that.  This will be the same doughball I'd like to see the bottom of tonight and about 4-5 hours prior to baking.   This will give us an idea of when to pull the dough from the fridge.

Mike, the process I'm having you trial is also a very similar process that I am currently experimenting with and using myself.  I made up 2 doughballs last night with 10% active mature starter (no IDY) to be baked Saturday evening.  They were out at room temps for about 1.5 h before cold fermenting at 45F.

I also made up some bread dough last night using 35% starter and very warm water (95F or so) and allowed it to be out for around 3 hours at room temps before going to sleep.  This bread will be baked this afternoon sometime.  Already there is a huge difference in activity between the pizza dough and bread dough.  This is to give you an idea of the difference between using difference amounts of starter, different water temps, and the difference in varying room temp bulk times. 

I have to run now, but will post pics later.

Chau

Offline forzaroma

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2011, 08:49:56 AM »
I reballed 2 out of the 3. I feel it was not sealing because the dough was cold but I did only 2 small folds to reform the ball. Do you want a pic of the reballed dough ball or the one that I balled after the the intitial bulk ferment?
Why do you think I shouldnt of reballed that dough? What signs are we looking for to guage the fermentation? Bubbles?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 08:54:14 AM by forzaroma »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: New Formula advice
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2011, 12:13:46 PM »
I reballed 2 out of the 3. I feel it was not sealing because the dough was cold but I did only 2 small folds to reform the ball. Do you want a pic of the reballed dough ball or the one that I balled after the the intitial bulk ferment?
Why do you think I shouldnt of reballed that dough? What signs are we looking for to guage the fermentation? Bubbles?

A picture of one of the balls that was reballed after 8 hours of cold ferment or whichever you have in the clear plastic container.  We can see the bottom and note the relative rate of fermentation to the amount of yeast used and the fermentation temps. 

It's hard to always accurately judge exactly how much strength to build into a dough.  It is something that is done by feel and experience.  You'll become more adept at judging how much strength a dough needs the more dough experience you have.  By the looks of it, it probably didn't need any extra balling but since it was just 2 small folds, you're probably okay.    If anything, it will just have built a little extra strength into the dough and require just a bit more work to open it.  The dough isn't ruined or anything like that so no worries there. 

Here are a few pictures of doughballs I've made in the past.  These were all cold fermented.

-Pic 1 and 2 are different doughballs but at different stages of fermentation.  2 of course is further along.  I like to use the dough when it looks closer to #2.

-Pic 3 & 4 are on the verge of overfermentation IMO.  I don't like using it with such big aerated bubbles in the bottom or on the sides.  Also note the big bubbles that have surfaced on top.  These are introduced during the balling stage and have likely gotten bigger with the fermentation process.   On his website, Jeff also mentions to use the dough before this point.   At this point, particularly if you are using a mature starter, the flavors will be much more intense with increase acids developing.  Also the acids can toughing up the crumb, especially if you are using a relatively low hydrated dough.

Chau