New Formula advice

[forzaroma]

Ok after I did first test I fed it an hour and half  later I tested again and it floats

[forzaroma]

Here is the progress of the dough at exactly 48 hours. I think Ik be baking at 6pm tomorrow. I think I will need the 4 hour room temp to get this where it needs to be. Hopefully my starter wasnt over matured when I made this dough, I also did use a pinch of IDY in the dough.

                                                              Mike

[Jackie Tran]

From the looks of the progression, I agree that taking it out 4-6 hours prior to baking would be okay.  You'll still have to monitor the dough and possibly either warm proof or cold proof again according to what you need.  

For the next batch of dough, should you want to keep the same formula and cold fermentation times, you can either...
-increase the % of starter
-and/or increase the amount of commercial yeast by a bit
-or do a longer bulk ferment than the 1 hour time you used.
-or cold ferment at a higher temp than you did previously.
-or again pull it out sooner.

You can do any one or a combination of the above to fine tune your own protocol.  This is the tedious process of learning how to make pizza.  I wish there was a magic recipe that works for everyone in all situations but there isn't.  


Oh...about sifting.  Peter said it best here...Reply #2
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12763.0.html

As for myself and in my particular dry climate I don't seem to have a problem with flour clumping.  I use to sift flour but currently do not.  I find that it makes very little difference whether I do or do not and I have too many other more important things to think about like proper gluten developement, not overfermenting, and getting the proper bake.  

Good luck.  I hope your pies turn out well.
Chau

[forzaroma]

I will post results. If a starter is very mature will the dough still rise?

[Jackie Tran]

I will post results. If a starter is very mature will the dough still rise?

When a starter rises and domes it is considered mature and at it's peak activity.  When it starts to deflate it is heading into overmaturing.  As it continues in overmaturation, it will develop more acids lowering the pH. At some point, there will be decrease fermentation activity.

The acids not only slow fermentation but also weaken the gluten matrix.  So depending on how overmature a starter is and how much you've added to the dough, it can affect overall rise.  it will still rise but not optimally.  So the more overmature a starter and the bigger acid load introduced into the dough, the bigger the affect.  If an overmature starter is used, the dough won't rise as much overall.  This point is very deceptive b/c if you increase fermentation time and/or temp in an effort to get more rise, you can actually head into overfermentation (and over acid production) without even being aware of it.  The result will be a  more dense crumb with a sour taste and relatively little or ovenspring. 

With the small amount that you used and from your protocol of feeding it and letting it get active before using, I would think that you are okay.   Do you remember if you indeed fed the starter before using it for this batch or did you just use it straight from the fridge?

Have you been monitoring the progress of the dough?  Does it look more active than it did 12 hours ago? 24 hours ago?  How much rise would you say has occured overall since the very first ball was made?  Can you post a picture of the bottom of the same doughball shown earlier.  If you can take a picture of it sometime today and then after 3-4 hours at room temp. 


Chau

[forzaroma]

I did feed starter before using it. I see it is def mor active but didn't rise a great amount. The last pic I posted was 48 hours . I will post again when I rake out at 1pm so 3 more hours then post again 2 hours later.

[Jackie Tran]

Mike, I was wanting to make 2 loaves of bread using 2 different starters so i started the process last night with the intent of cold fermenting the dough overnight.

I set out the 2 starters that I wanted to use for the test before going out for dinner.  After I came back both starters looked active so I proceeded to make the doughs.  When I was pouring out the 2nd starter I noted it to be much more liquid in consistency than the other even though I feed all my starters 50/50 by measuring the amounts.   This difference in consistency here is that the first one was at maturation and the 2nd overmaturation.  The first starter was strong coming out of the jar and floated like a champ.  The 2nd one liquid and barely floated.  Some of it sank.  I decided to take a new direction with the experiment to see the effects (again) of using starters at different stages of maturation.  

Both doughs were made with the same formula and method using 30% (of the flour weight) in starter.  The 2nd dough (overmature starter) felt more wet from the get go.  This same dough didn't become as strong over the next couple hours of intermittent stretch and folds.  Even this morning, after 6 hours of cold ferment, they are behaving differently.  

Despite being the same weight overall, dough one clearly has a stronger gluten matrix and holding air better.  It appears to be bigger in volume as well.  This dough will make a better loaf.  So when you use a starter can definitely have effects on the end product.  Using an overmature starter will still give rise to the dough and ovenspring, it will just be not be optimize.  

Chau

[forzaroma]

Those are pics of the doughs do you have pics if the 2 diff starters?

[Jackie Tran]

Those are pics of the doughs do you have pics if the 2 diff starters?

I don't.  I do tend to take a lot of pictures but didn't think of it at the time since this wasn't my original intent of the experiment.  I was merely wanting to test one starter against another, but b/c of an oversight didn't feed the 2 starters on the same schedule.  Just assumed they would be about the same base on look, and then realize the difference when I started pouring the 2nd one.

The first starter would be considered a more young starter.  It's surface had less bubbles and more medium sized.  It appeared stronger than active (bubbly) but floats well.  

The 2nd starter looks more bubble and active and semi floated.  This starter was on it's way to sinking.  Perhaps another 30m at room temps and it would have sanke completely?  

I just formed both loaves and had to add extra strength to the 2nd loaf to get it to the same shape as the first, but both are looking and feeling similar at this point.  

Chau

[forzaroma]

Ok i think my starter was overmatured as I started using a 50/50 mix to begin my process each day using 1 oz flour and one oz water for about 9-10 days, then I put in fridge and left it in fridge for about 3-4 days. Took it out fed it and left on counter feeding once each day. Until I made my dough 2 days ago. if I fed at say 7am and used the starter at say 10pm without feeding there is a good chance it was prob overmatured. This is a learning lesson for me with starters and I needed a start point and at the moment I am reading Bread bakers apprentice and learning and of course this thread as well. This is where I got my starter direction from: http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/11/how-to-make-sourdough-starter-day-0.html

Tell me what you think? Once the starter is dormant in fridge do I need only a feeding and a few hours to get it to peak again and not the 14 hours I think I did.

[Jackie Tran]

Mike, although it sounds like your starter was a bit overmature, let's wait to see what the dough does today and post bake to make a judgement.   I am glad that you are reading the baker's apprentice.  Although I don't own a copy myself yet, I've read a lot of positive reviews about it.   I should remind those reading my posts that I am by no means an expert on anything.  I am still very new at pizza and bread making and learning like most of us on this board.  Happy to share the little I know.  My posts are purely based on my limited knowledge and from the experiments I conduct in my kitchen.  Anyone can conduct the same experiments and likely get different results.  It's nearly impossible to standardize a recipe as everyone's methods and baking environments vary.  

Mike it's really too difficult to answer your question fairly.  There are many ways of keeping and maintaining starters that work well.  And the decision of when to use that starter also depends on the results you want.  From what I've read, different starters can also act drastically different at different temps giving different results in crust coloration, flavor profile, and leavening ability.  

It depends on how long your starter has been dormant.  A starter that is dormant for 1 day vs 1 week vs 1 month will respond to 1 feeding differently.   Depending on how you maintain your starter, it can be ready to go coming out of the fridge in as little as 1 hour without feeding all the way to a full day of refeeding multiple times before it reaches the point of being ready to use.  It's really working with a particular starter and method until you get to know it well.  It helps me to think about a starter just like a piece of dough.   You add old starter and new flour and water and it continues on a new journey of fermentation until the food sources run out.

I think what you did will work fine, but it also sounds like it is a more mature starter than what I like to use.  I don't think I would say that it was overmature though, but that's only a guess.  A starter is only considered overmature when it falls and becomes deflated.

Chau

[forzaroma]

Ok here is the update took out dough from cold fermet and this is what it looks like after 63 hours and then again 2 hours later at 65 . The 2 hours were at room temp.

[Jackie Tran]

Mike the dough looks great.  Can I get a side shot? Has the dough expanded upward much in the 2 hours? How much longer before you bake tonight?  

If 2 hours or so, then leave it out.  If longer than that then you may want to return it to the fridge for an hour or so to cool it a bit and slow down fermentation.   Next time just make the adjustments as I suggested earlier. 

Chau

[forzaroma]

Yeah Im not baking for another 90 minutes or so I just returned it for a bit. heres the side shot.

[Jackie Tran]

Here's one of my doughballs that was made Thursday night with 10% active starter.  To be baked Saturday night, ~ 45 hours later.  This dough was out at room temps for about 1.5h, then cold fermented at 45F or so for about 36-37h, then room temp (75F) proof for 6 hours prior to baking.   The dough was folded a few times after 24hours of cold fermentation.  

I'll plan on baking tonight at 5pm.  The pictures were taken when the dough first came out of cold ferment at 11am and then 3 hours later.  There is still 3 hours to go until bake time at the time the 2nd pic was taken.  

[forzaroma]

Ok after a long night I finally am finished. The results of the flavor of the dough were probab;y my best ones so far. The cornicione was good but still can be a little better especially after cutting into the dough. My best dough was the ones where I bulk fermented and then balled the following morning.

[forzaroma]

The rest.

[Jackie Tran]

Mike, I'm glad the pies turned out well for you.  Nice job.  Hopefully you have some ideas and a method to work off of.  

As far as my pies went, I made 4.  2 were ~48 hour CF doughs, 1 HG, 1 80/20 blend of 00/hg.  I then made 2 other 24 hour RT pies: 1 hg and 1 80/20 blend as well.  The HG pies were the better ones tonight.  I was trying some new fold methods with the 00 pies and didn't develop the gluten enough.  

Anyways, here is a picture of the doughball that I posted earlier.  This is what it looked like with another 3 hours at room temps of 75F, so a total of 6hrs of RT proof after CF.  

This pie was one of the better ones tonight.  

Chau

[forzaroma]

Your pie looks great. Did you like the cf or the rt dough better? I think I have the flavor I want now I need to work on getting a better puff in my crust. I want my cornicione puffy and light> I'm pretty good with shaping my skins I am wondering if the fermentation process and oven heat have to do with that. To cook these pies I had the broiler method going but didn't get the heat as high as I wanted.

[Jackie Tran]

Thanks Mike.  For this paricular bake the crust of the night was the 24h RT HG pie, BUT that's not to say that it's better in general.   I have made really good pies with both methods. 

To get the crust that you are describing, especially consistently takes a lot of factors coming together just right.  It's the coming together of texture, flavor, & look.  To get there is a big balancing act of getting a great dough and a proper bake.   Whenever you are able to make a really  great pizza, pay close attention to what the dough looked like and how it behaved when opening.   The bake time needs to also match (or be balanced) with your hydration ratio.  The bake time needs to be long enough to drive out just enough moisture but not too much.  Temp needs to be hot enough to give us the proper lift and crust coloration. 

Mike FWIW, look towards a 3-4 minute bake to get the crust you are looking for not a sub 2 minute broiler method pie.  I found this out after many many experiments. 

Good luck,
Chau