Newbie here, making first home made Chicago pizza tomorrow

[Dayton Dave]

Question, first timer.  I'm using DKM recipe for the pizza.
1. After the dough rises, do I punch it down before putting in the pan?
2. Sauage, fry it first?
3. Can I use already shredded cheese?
Thanks,
Dave

[DKM]

1. Punching it down will make it harder to pull up the sides.

2. You can, but I don't.

3. You can, just don't under do it.

[Dayton Dave]

Thanks, I'll let you know how it turns out.
Dave

[c0mpl3x]

i punch down my dough as i press it into my deep dish pans

[Dayton Dave]

Well, it turned out great!
One question, could I cut the dough recipe in half and use a 9 inh cake pan?
Another question, I poured the whole can of chopped tomato on the pizza, seemed a little soupy, should I have drained the juice off?
Thanks,
Dave

[DKM]

Well, it turned out great!

Woohoo

One question, could I cut the dough recipe in half and use a 9 inh cake pan?

Use the deep dish dough calculator for best results.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html

Another question, I poured the whole can of chopped tomato on the pizza, seemed a little soupy, should I have drained the juice off?

Yes

[mzimm]

I just finished mixing up my first DKM Chicago tonight.  I have a few questions about what I observed during the process:

1. My KitchenAid stand mixer was fitted with the dough hook, after the few minutes initial mixing (dough came together) I slowly added the oil but the hook seemed to flatten down the dough and it just slid around in the bowl.  In reaction to this I stopped and put on the mixing blade for a few minutes until the dough was mixed with the remaining oil.  After this I put the hook back on and mixed for the remaining 5 minutes.  Should I have avoided using the mixing blade or what did I do wrong on this step?

2. After the total mixing time dough was sticky.  All ingredients were weighed on scale and put in the bowl in the order as listed on the recipe.  Was this dough a bit over-mixed or undermixed being it was sticky?  Should I discard and start over or what should be done?

Thank you,

Mike

[Clive At Five]

I just finished mixing up my first DKM Chicago tonight.  I have a few questions about what I observed during the process:

1. My KitchenAid stand mixer was fitted with the dough hook, after the few minutes initial mixing (dough came together) I slowly added the oil but the hook seemed to flatten down the dough and it just slid around in the bowl.  In reaction to this I stopped and put on the mixing blade for a few minutes until the dough was mixed with the remaining oil.  After this I put the hook back on and mixed for the remaining 5 minutes.  Should I have avoided using the mixing blade or what did I do wrong on this step?

2. After the total mixing time dough was sticky.  All ingredients were weighed on scale and put in the bowl in the order as listed on the recipe.  Was this dough a bit over-mixed or undermixed being it was sticky?  Should I discard and start over or what should be done?

Thank you,

Mike

Hi, Mike,

1) I think you'll find that most people here do not use a stand mixer for deep dish pizza. The reason for this is that over-mixing can lead to stiff, bready dough. For some pizzas, you want to create a strong gluten structure. Traditional Chicago-style, however, is on the biscuity end of the spectrum. It is, of course, all a matter of your preferences, but if you are indeed trying to emulate Malnati's and UNO's pies, you will reach a more accurate result by mixing less. I personally mix just enough to bring the materials together, then I hand-kneed for a minute or two. Experiment a little, though, to find out what your preferences are.

2) By "sticky," do you mean it sticks to your fingers, or that it's moist? If you find your dough-ball is literally sticky after the mix, add a few pinches of flour during the kneed to keep it under control. I typically aim for a *little* on the moist (oily) side. The dough moulds very easily to my pan. I would not start over - just keep adding a bit more flour until you have a workable consistency and roll with it!

Good luck, and be sure to post your results!

-Clive

[mzimm]

Hi Clive,

Thanks for the reply.  I see your fron St. Paul, MN - I'm in Waseca (south of MSP).

Sticky was meaning literally sticking to fingers - from what you described the dough was in fact over mixed and did not form very well to the pan (it was very gooey).  The end result was a very doughy crust (soggy dough) although it was nice golden brown on the bottom and edges.

Next try I will just mix it enough to bring everything together and then do the hand kneed for a couple minutes.  I also didn't use Canola oil and the only oil I had was vegetable oil.

The oven was at 450°F on the bottom in a 2" deep 15" dia aluminum pizza pan, is an aluminum pan going to give me favorable results with the deep dish?

Thanks again for the help and looking forward to trying this recipe again (the 6 in 1 sauce made up for my dough failure) 

[Clive At Five]

Well, greetings to a fellow Minnesohtan! Been to Waseca a few times myself... Played in BRASSWORKS for a few summers, which IIRC, is based out of Waseca, or at least was...

Some people swear they can taste the difference between canola and vegetable oil... I never could. Either way, give it a shot and let me (us) know if you have a preference!

From the description of your pie - "it was nice golden brown on the bottom and edges" - it sounds about right. I'm glad to hear you had favorable results with an aluminum pan. The reigning champion of pans around the DD forums is a heavy, dark pan, simply for its scientific trait of absorbing heat, whereas aluminum reflects it. If you got great results with aluminum, more power to ya!

Where do you get your 6-in-1? I'm wondering if there are actually any stores around here that sell it or if I'm going to have to go online like everyone else? I've been having *decent* results with Muir Glenn, but am dying to try the famed 6-in-1.......

-Clive

[mzimm]

When I said the pie was "nice golden brown on the bottom and edges" but the middle of the dough was very raw like tasting (not biscuit like). 

I tried to find the heavy steel pans 2"X15" pans but the only ones around at any of the restaurant supply places seems to be aluminum ones.  Where do you guys get your heavy steel pans?

On the 6 in 1 - I ordered them from the manufacturer.  Price was good and shipping was super reasonable.  I haven't been able to find a local outlet for them.  Some of my flour and other ingredients I get from Pohl Foods in St. Paul but no luck with the 6 in 1 there. 

Clive, ever try Red's Savoy (restaurants in St. Paul, Eagan or Hudson-wi) - If you are familiar with Savoy any thoughts on what spices they use in the "secret sauce"?

[PizzaHog]

Hey M
If you have any Bed Bath and Beyond stores around you might check there for pans.  The one's around me sell Chicago Mettalic brand dark steel pans, small size only though.  I learned of this brand of pans here on the forum as favored and like everything else should be findable at amazon or whatever too.  Cast iron works too.
I use my kitchen aid for DD, learned about that here too.  Blade only, speed 1, mix just until everything is incorporated, then not much more, like a minute max or even less.  The dough comes out of the mixer disjointed and scraggly and looks like an oily brain.  But it comes together fine when pressing into the pan, is not overmixed, and nice and biscuity.
If you let your fingers do the walking thru your yellow pages you might get lucky enough to find a rest or pizza wholesale supply that sells to the public.  These places can be like the holy grail for equipment and ingredients if you can locate one.
Hog

[Clive At Five]

When I said the pie was "nice golden brown on the bottom and edges" but the middle of the dough was very raw like tasting (not biscuit like). 

Whoops! If it makes you feel any better, I've burnt more pizzas that I can count!

I tried to find the heavy steel pans 2"X15" pans but the only ones around at any of the restaurant supply places seems to be aluminum ones.  Where do you guys get your heavy steel pans?

I too recommend Chicago Metallic pans - however - the CM pans one finds at Bed Bath & Beyond are NOT authentic Chicago Metallic pans. They're manufactured by an authorized third-party under the CM namesake. Many people here find them sufficient, but since trying an authentic "Bakalon" pan from CM, I have fallen in love and never looked back. Unfortunately, they're hard to find individually. CM only sells in boxes of multiples. When I worked in the bakery industry, I was able to get a sample of such a pan. My contact there said they were moving towards trying to get the authentic pans into retail outlets. So far, I've only found a few places online that will sell them "a piece". One such site is "akitchen.com": http://www.akitchen.com/store/pizzapans.html -- The Bakalon pans are about a third of the way down the page and are pretty affordable, actually. I'm contemplating getting a few of the smaller pans... my wife is complaining about 14" pies... something about watching her figure or something?

Clive, ever try Red's Savoy (restaurants in St. Paul, Eagan or Hudson-wi) - If you are familiar with Savoy any thoughts on what spices they use in the "secret sauce"?

I'm actually from Eagan, and have driven past Red's Savoy several times and been very curious to try it. I haven't heard anything positive or negative yet... I'm going to have to elevate them in my priority list... The story on their website certainly has me curious. Unfortunately, I am fairly terrible at picking out spices. 

Thanks for the info on the 6-in-1. I guess I'll just have to order online then! 

-Clive

[mzimm]

Just ordered a 2"X15" PSTK deep dish pan from Lloyd pans - something about spending $38 bucks + $10 shipping on a single pan was worth it just to know that this may make a perfect pie (or maybe not but at least its worth a shot).

Next week I plan on just a quick less than 1 minute mix with the blade and then mix by hand for about 2 minutes.  Was also thinking about corn oil and semolina flour rather than the canola oil and corn meal.

For AP flour are they all acceptable for the Chicago crust or are some better than others?  I have Gold Metal AP

Clive, if you go to Savoys check out the dark green spice they add to the sauce so far I've decided that its not oregano or basil but they sure as hell won't tell me what it is.  The crust is no big deal at Savoy's but,  it all about their sauce and the homemade sausage. 

Hopefully the next Chicago will actually be worthy of some photos to post.  The last one I made I would have been banned from this forum for posting the pics....

[Clive At Five]

Congrats on your purchase! I've of read many who love their PSTKers, so it may be worth the extra dough (mind the pun ).

Next week I plan on just a quick less than 1 minute mix with the blade and then mix by hand for about 2 minutes.

 

There is no one way to mix the dough, that's for sure!

Simply for the point of contrast, I payed closer attention to what I was doing with my doughball last night, specifically, order of operations, how long I mixed and how long I kneaded. I started by adding a quarter (maybe a third) of the flour blend to the wet goods (water-sugar-yeast combo, melted butter and oils) so as to make a batter (forum member vcb brought this technique to light for me, and I've found it definitely keeps my mixing times down to a minimum). After adding the remainder of the flour, I used bowl and spoon for maybe 30 seconds - just until the ingredients made a cohesive ball, though it was a little scrappy and not homogenous. I then dumped it onto a cutting board and kneaded for a maximum of 60 seconds (the ball looked homogenous by about 20 seconds in and the last 40 was just for good measure... stress release, maybe? ). Now some might say I kneaded too long and others might say I didn't knead long enough... I've concocted some pretty bready nightmares in the past, so nowadays, I tend to err on the side of caution!

Was also thinking about corn oil and semolina flour rather than the canola oil and corn meal.

CORNMEAL!!! *runs*

Okay, all kidding aside, the reason I landed at these forums is because I was trying to avoid cornmeal. Nearly every recipe I found on the web had freaking corn meal in it! I wasn't a pizza expert (I'm still not) but I knew that cornmeal had no place in my deep dish pies. Now as a disclaimer, that is my "opinion," but it is an opinion I strongly encourage others to adopt.

In fairness to cornmeal, it adds a flavor element that some find positive. If I could get past the grittiness, I would likely agree. That's why I think some have taken to Semolina: The flavor of cornmeal, a delightful crunch, and no distracting grits.

For AP flour are they all acceptable for the Chicago crust or are some better than others?  I have Gold Metal AP

I personally have not distinguished a noticable difference between brands, but I may not have the palette others do. My only rule of thumb, is not to buy the bargain-priced own-brands... and I'm not even sure if this practice has merit! (I use GM AP as well, and have had no complaints, if that makes you feel any better )

Clive, if you go to Savoys check out the dark green spice they add to the sauce so far I've decided that its not oregano or basil but they sure as hell won't tell me what it is.  The crust is no big deal at Savoy's but,  it all about their sauce and the homemade sausage.

I've put it on my calendar for next week and am really excited. I read the review on "Slice" (http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2009/02/st-paul-minnesota-reds-savoy-pizza-review-twin-cities-mn.html) and they seem to agree that the crust is "purely functional" -- but that's totally fine. I love a good mound of sauce, sausage and cheese, I don't need to be distracted by a crust as well!

Hopefully the next Chicago will actually be worthy of some photos to post.  The last one I made I would have been banned from this forum for posting the pics....

Hahaha, I've seen a lot of flops on the forum - even posted some of my own - but no resulting bans yet Maybe you could be the first!

I look forward to seeing your results!

-Clive

[Clive At Five]

Clive, if you go to Savoys check out the dark green spice they add to the sauce so far I've decided that its not oregano or basil but they sure as hell won't tell me what it is.  The crust is no big deal at Savoy's but,  it all about their sauce and the homemade sausage. 

It's good....

...it's REALLY good!

My wife and I nearly polished off a large ourselves. We literally had to force ourselves to stop eating.

We got banana peppers, half pepperoni, half sausage. As I suspected, I wasn't able to pick out the flavor of a particular spice in the sauce, but boy was it good. Visually, I could pick out a distinct pointy-leafed herb... looked a little pointier than Parsley, so maybe it was Chervil, which supposedly has a mild anise flavor...? I'm almost willing to bet the real secret isn't a leafy green.

This may require a thread of its own to dig into...

Thanks for the recommendation! Red's is gonig to be dangerous!

-Clive