Author Topic: I Got Dem Bosch Blues  (Read 1779 times)

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Offline dmaxdmax

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I Got Dem Bosch Blues
« on: March 25, 2011, 12:58:00 AM »
I've made 2 batches of dough in my new mixer and experienced the following:

French Bread- I used the standard white bowl and the dough climbed up the shaft and gummed those grooves at the top. I had to stop the process a few times to push the residue down.  Cleaning was a bear though the resulting loaves were good.

Neo-neapolitan pizza - I used the stainless steel dough bowl and the hook/scraper left a significant coating of dough all around the wall.  I had to stop several times to scrape it down, about the same or a little more than I would have been stuck doing with our old KA.  Very annoying though the dough was quite strong albiet sticky.  We'll see how it bakes over the weekend.

was I expecting too much?  I can't say I'm thrilled.
Thx
Dave
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Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: I Got Dem Bosch Blues
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2011, 08:37:09 AM »
Dave,  stick with it,  no pun intended. 
How big are your batch sizes?
 What is your hydration? 
What is your order of ingredient addition? 
How long are you kneading and on what speed?
 Anything else you think matters.

Also,  not much sticks to the plastic bowl.  I had the old style stainless bowl,  and it did stick to that.  MY rule with the bosch is,  as soon as you are done with the metal parts,  get them in hot water and take care of them then.  After all,  its just paste if you let it dry on.  Nothing is more difficult to cleant than dried on starter or dough.  My guess is that you are doing small,  high hydration batches,  that causes the climb,  but I will wait to see what you say. you willl learn to like it I think.  -marc

Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: I Got Dem Bosch Blues
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2011, 10:29:34 AM »
Marc
Final batch weights about 40 ounces
Both recipes are Peter Reinhart
Hydrations 75 and 71%.  (the 75 is a guess - I don't have the recipe handy)
I followed the instructions in the user manual and put the liquids in first with the dry all at once.

I don't recall the speed for the bread but I did the pizza on 1 (of 4) for 4 minutes, had a 5 minute rest followed by speed 2 for just 30 seconds.  Then to approximate stretch and folds I did 10 seconds on speed 1, 4 times at 5 minute intervals.  A significant coating on the sides of the s.s. bowl formed at about 1 minute and reformed as soon as I scraped it down.  (this is the relatively new dough bowl with the hook mounted on the bottom and no center column)

The resulting dough was smooth and strong though stickier than I hoped but I can't blame that on the
machine. 

I wonder if there's too much clearance between the hook-scraper and the SS bowl...

Thanks
Dave
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Offline Jet_deck

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Re: I Got Dem Bosch Blues
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2011, 10:44:52 AM »
I also experienced the dough creep up the center column.  It seems to happen less, when I let the dough rest longer ( > 20 minutes) after the initial mix.  Also while making a cracker crust at 36% HR recently, the opposite problem happened by the arms pushing the flour around in circles and not kneading.  By adding the oil first and replacing half of the water with ice, it mixed a perfect  ( cornmeal consistency ) cracker crust.  When I gathered the mix, it came together, like the brain looking mass I am familiar with seeing here.  Hope this helps some.
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Offline JConk007

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Re: I Got Dem Bosch Blues
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2011, 10:01:03 PM »
Jet, and or Mark
I am intersted in hearing more about the Cracker crust @ 36% in the Bosch. I am planning on trying that soon. I would go for minimum 100 G flour. I have ghad good success with the KA artisan 500 but never tried the new Bosch. Can you elaborate on the oils and ice theory?
appreciate any help! Thanks
John
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 10:03:33 PM by JConk007 »
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Offline widespreadpizza

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Re: I Got Dem Bosch Blues
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2011, 11:46:07 AM »
Dave,  I am wondering what would happen if you did a batch in it near your yours rated absorbtion.  If it mixes well,  then I would say the issue has more to do with your recipie than the mixer.  Try a batch a 60-62.   There is no mixer that i know of that is desinged to mix dough in the 70-75 % range and do it withou making a mess,  and needeing assistance from the operator.  I do mix sicilian/focccacia in my plastic bowl, at 75% and it does tend to be messy.  Lately,  I have been mixing it at high speed,  and just until it comes away from the bowl.  less than a munite later the dough starts to breakdown and becomes a gummy mess. -marc

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: I Got Dem Bosch Blues
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2011, 12:32:06 PM »
I agree with Marc.  I have found that the bosch with the standard plastic bowl does not do well with a relatively wet (whatever that means) dough, and especially with small wet batches as well.  With a bigger batch there is at least the weight of the dough to pull it down once it climbs up the center post. 

As already mentioned, to do a wetter batch I have found that increasing the length of autolyse helps to strengthen the dough to keep it down in the bowl.   But this only works to a certain extent.  You'll find that once you lower your hydration, the dough will get mixed.  If the hydration is too low, then it will just spin the dough in circles.  This is also why I think it's better to add the flour gradually into the bosch with the mixer going.  I find that if I dump all the flour in at once and then turn it on, the mix is not as even initially with the dough being pushed around more.   When this happens, I'll crank it up to speed 3 or 4 for short bursts to get the dough mixed better, then I lower back to speed 1. 

Chau

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: I Got Dem Bosch Blues
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2011, 12:37:37 PM »
.... I have had good success with the KA artisan 500 but never tried the new Bosch. Can you elaborate on the oils and ice theory?....
John

I failed once with the DKM cracker recipe in the Bosch, but have made it work several times by doing it this way.  I added the dry ingredients to the plastic bowl. Started the mixer and gradually added the oil. Used half of the water (warm) to proof the yeast and the other half of water weight in the form of ice.  I add the water/yeast mix gently and then just throw in the ice.  It seems that rather than making a big glob of wet stuff for the arms to push around surrounded by dry flour, the melting ice adds water gradually to lots of different places in the dough and incorporates that way.  I do remember doing several stop and goes with the mixer to let a little more ice melt.  Please let us know if you too can replicate this.
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Offline dmaxdmax

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Re: I Got Dem Bosch Blues
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2011, 11:34:17 PM »
UPDATE: I made a 44oz (total) dough with 62% hydration and had no problem with the dough bowl.  It's pretty dense but if i like the finished loaf I may try to double it.  Maybe start with 1.5x

Dave

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Offline scott r

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Re: I Got Dem Bosch Blues
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2011, 02:59:08 PM »
From what I have seen the typical hydration used in 99% of the pizzerias around the country is between 55 and 62% hydration (excluding thin and crispy/cracker doughs which are lower).   People on this forum are really pushing the limits lately going up to 70% hydration doughs and higher. This ultra high hydration dough can make an amazing crust that I love....not knocking it here, just saying its not typical at all.   Like Marc said, no mixer is going to be able to easily and cleanly deal with hydrations that high, except maybe spiral mixers, but even then you still have to play games.     If you want to use a mixer for these super hydrated doughs (70% on up) your best bet is usually to do a "double hydration" technique. Using this method the dough is first mixed with just enough water to bring it into the range where a conventional mixer can deal with it (60-65%).  After the gluten has been sufficiently developed, the remaining water is added and mixing is continued just until all the water is incorporated.   Having said this, I make 72% hydrated doughs in my Bosch all the time without doing a double hydration, but my batch sizes are large, and I am often mixing for 12 minutes or more, combined with stretch and folds after it comes out of the mixer.  

When I posted on this forum that I thought the Bosch produced a better end product than the DLX mixer, I was basing these comments on pizza made with the typical hydration levels used for pizza in this country.  Once you get up to 70% and higher, people might prefer the DLX, as it very easily handles these super wet doughs.   If you know you want to make only ultra high hydration pizza and bread dough than I think the DLX is probably your best bet.   If you want to go for a more typical pizza dough most of the time, and don't mind doing the double hydration method when you want really wet doughs,  I still feel strongly that the Bosch is the mixer to get.  If you want to go below 60% there is no contest because the DLX can't even do it.  

Finally, I mentioned this a number of times when I first started touting the virtues of the Bosch on this forum, but I just want to emphasize again.....  When working with the Bosch mixer its VERY important that you give the dough a 20 minute rest right after the ingredients have had an initial quick mix....just enough to incorporate the liquid into the dry ingredients.   If you don't do this the ingredients will just spin around the bowl and they will not mix properly.  

Good luck everyone, and I hope I didn't steer anyone off course by recommending the Bosch!
« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 03:51:56 PM by scott r »